EPTPretty interesting/rather bloody aggravating read. Some rather interesting stuff there though, some relating to the current discussion, some not so much but overall an informative read.
User was warned for this post.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2121
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23814 Posts
Pretty interesting/rather bloody aggravating read. Some rather interesting stuff there though, some relating to the current discussion, some not so much but overall an informative read. User was warned for this post. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15398 Posts
On February 15 2020 08:52 Nyxisto wrote: Culinary union coming out against Sanders or Warren is a pretty good example of the take I made a few days ago, shifting control over healthcare entirely to the federal government is very quickly going to run into conflict not only with middle class but also working-class organisations and unions who are essentially disempowered by handing control over insurance from collective bargaining over to politicians in Washington. Disempowering local institutions like unions or employers also seems like a significant problem if hardcore Republicans ever get their hands on a hypothetical national healthcare service. lol if you continued to read up on this story, you would see it actually proved the opposite of your point. | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
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semantics
10040 Posts
On February 15 2020 08:52 Nyxisto wrote: Culinary union coming out against Sanders or Warren is a pretty good example of the take I made a few days ago, shifting control over healthcare entirely to the federal government is very quickly going to run into conflict not only with middle class but also working-class organisations and unions who are essentially disempowered by handing control over insurance from collective bargaining over to politicians in Washington. Disempowering local institutions like unions or employers also seems like a significant problem if hardcore Republicans ever get their hands on a hypothetical national healthcare service. Disempowered? Sounds like the management business talk. I'm empowering you, aka giving you more responsibility with no pay increase but if I call it empowerment it sounds better. They no longer can negotiate over health insurance because everyone will get it and there will be no networks just coverage of ailments. That's not disempowerment that's winning. It's like saying social security disempowered them. Or the minimum wage etc. More resources can go to neogating pay, working conditions and other benefits. Medical, dental and eye Care are not the only benefits around. | ||
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farvacola
United States18818 Posts
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Falling
Canada11277 Posts
On February 15 2020 03:12 Lmui wrote: Easier yes, more secure no. The problem with mail-in ballots is that you wind up with situations like the states where some nefarious party harvests ballots -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_North_Carolina%27s_9th_congressional_district_election It's difficult to vote by mail: but not impossible in Canada - You have to work to be able to do it, which minimizes this problem. https://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=faq&document=faqvbm&lang=e In Canada, I generally have to go in person to vote, but I can do it on a number of advance voting days, or on election day. Make it easier to vote, but no less secure. I would not want to compromise on security by having voting be done in a way which can be compromised. Mohdoo went over the procedure, but we also get a contiguous 4h off to vote on election day itself, employers MUST provide 4h somewhere in the workday for employees to vote. Not quite a holiday, but good enough. https://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=secure&document=p3&lang=e - voting uses paper ballots https://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=secure&document=p4&lang=e - voting is counted by hand Canada has everything from large urban (Vancouver/Toronto/Montreal 1M+ people) to tiny rural (Nunavut has ~40k people in an area ~3x the size of Texas), and we manage to count votes by hand/paper, and release pretty good preliminary results within 30min-3h of polls closing. Yeah, it works really well- so well that they are often announcing who won the election and we in BC haven't finished voting yet! But it's super convenient with the additional advance voting and I've found the polling stations to be super convenient- 2 minute drive or less to community halls, sportsplex's, gyms, etc. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On February 15 2020 11:01 semantics wrote: Disempowered? Sounds like the management business talk. I'm empowering you, aka giving you more responsibility with no pay increase but if I call it empowerment it sounds better. They no longer can negotiate over health insurance because everyone will get it and there will be no networks just coverage of ailments. That's not disempowerment that's winning. It's like saying social security disempowered them. Or the minimum wage etc. More resources can go to neogating pay, working conditions and other benefits. Medical, dental and eye Care are not the only benefits around. Yes, that is exactly the case. Bernie often talks about emulating Denmark with his welfare policies but if he'd check out Sweden or Denmark he'd notice that they don't actually have a minimum wage. Collective bargaining arrangements are significantly more robust than national-level policy because worker organisations, in contrast to politicians, are beholden to their constituents. Transferring welfare or healthcare to the federal government gives national politicians complete control over the budget and scope of those programs. Nice progressives are going to give everyone healthcare. Social conservatives may at some point decide that hormone replacement therapy and abortions aren't covered, and that the social security can be cut to ribbons. Exactly this model of national policy making has led to a paradox. The US has significantly more progressive tax systems than the countries american progressives want to emulate, but they have significantly worse outcomes. The countries that AOC or Bernie dream off, have open markets and tripartite welfare systems. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22696 Posts
On February 15 2020 14:16 Nyxisto wrote: Yes, that is exactly the case. Bernie often talks about emulating Denmark with his welfare policies but if he'd check out Sweden or Denmark he'd notice that they don't actually have a minimum wage. Collective bargaining arrangements are significantly more robust than national-level policy because worker organisations, in contrast to politicians, are beholden to their constituents. Transferring welfare or healthcare to the federal government gives national politicians complete control over the budget and scope of those programs. Nice progressives are going to give everyone healthcare. Social conservatives may at some point decide that hormone replacement therapy and abortions aren't covered, and that the social security can be cut to ribbons. Instead of just having your union on your side, you'd have the whole country (or at least ~1/2). Neoliberals and conservatives already control most of industry and regularly try to cut benefits/compensation without any democratic involvement. Even the worst case scenario you're describing is better than what we have. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15398 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain17848 Posts
On February 15 2020 15:59 Mohdoo wrote: Reminder: People said it was impossible to abolish slavery because businesses would go out of business and the economy would collapse. That did, in fact, happen. Also partially because you fight a bloody civil war over it. But true or not, i's just a bad reason not to abolish deplorably inhumane practices. So are you equating m4a to abolishing slavery? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23814 Posts
On February 15 2020 14:22 GreenHorizons wrote: Instead of just having your union on your side, you'd have the whole country (or at least ~1/2). Neoliberals and conservatives already control most of industry and regularly try to cut benefits/compensation without any democratic involvement. Even the worst case scenario you're describing is better than what we have. Some of which was outlined in the link I provided, although I didn’t give a synopsis as I’m an idiot. One especially fine ‘job creator’ will outright dock managerial pay 60% if unionisation occurs under their watch. Social conservatives already do their damnedest to make obtaining abortions difficult under the current system anyway, with its theoretical private market component. There is a tendency for some to overstate from ignorance or mislead over how countries like Denmark do things, especially in isolation. Hell I once had a libertarian try to argue that its successes were due to low corporate tax rates, leaving out rather a lot of other stuff. Countries do differ culturally of course, Denmark has strong unions but also laws around them as well. It’s also more culturally a factor there. I’d personally prefer if unions and worker engagement and collectivisation were the means to obtain better conditions (more than just wages off), as it’s a good launching pad for further political action too, but in other countries a raising of a state minimum wage is the best option in the interim. Not just in the US but in my native UK as well. I can’t be 100% but based on conversations I appear to be a rarity in our workplace as I did join the union. Most don’t really seem to know what unions are for and actually do, the perception is almost that it’s where you go for counsel if you’re being disciplined and that’s about it. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6208 Posts
This study was published this week in the Lancet: https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(19)33019-3 Taking into account both the costs of coverage expansion and the savings that would be achieved through the Medicare for All Act, we calculate that a single-payer, universal health-care system is likely to lead to a 13% savings in national health-care expenditure, equivalent to more than US$450 billion annually (based on the value of the US$ in 2017). Mental health is perpetually underfunded in Canada and many other countries, but physical health should be covered and accessible everywhere, it just makes sense to do it compared to the half assed insurance system you have. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11330 Posts
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stilt
France2736 Posts
On February 15 2020 09:03 Wombat_NI wrote: ’The Ultra-Rich are Ultra-Conservative’ Pretty interesting/rather bloody aggravating read. Some rather interesting stuff there though, some relating to the current discussion, some not so much but overall an informative read. User was warned for this post. I don't really get why this post is warned... That said, it's weird seeing anglosaxon politics naming themselves jacobin even if they pretend to be leftist, identitary politics is so deeply rooted within anglosaxon political culture that he doesn't match at all. Srsly how can they identify themselves to Saint-Just ? His defense of centralism, universalism (who are the inherent condition for social and even civilizational progress according to him) would make him today a white supremacist for the intellectual elite. For the same reason, I don't have any hopes toward Sanders, it's not even the fault of any system, it's the culture which is the problem. One of the main reason for which John Locke wants to exclude the atheists is they don't form communities (and so, they don't weaken the central state which is a threat to property and liberty)... But if you allow racism which allows the creation of communities from other powerful engines than religion they are welcomed, that's the political culture within the anglosaxon world. That's why I think religious fanatism, hatred and resentment is consubstantial to this social order. That's the reason why historically, workers' rights have been subpar here and why the exportation of this societal model within the world is a problem. From the conservative who are neoliberals and sometimes borderline rascists to the centrist who are a bunch of technocrats to the anglosaxon left who is obsessed with the races, communities and in short, identities, I don't think any kind of public good can emerge. trying to get a good healthcare in usa is like banging his head against a wall. The only good thing with Sanders is he might not be a less imperialistic than some other democrats. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 16 2020 05:04 stilt wrote: I don't really get why this post is warned... That said, it's weird seeing anglosaxon politics naming themselves jacobin even if they pretend to be leftist, identitary politics is so deeply rooted within anglosaxon political culture that he doesn't match at all. Srsly how can they identify themselves to Saint-Just ? His defense of centralism, universalism (who are the inherent condition for social and even civilizational progress according to him) would make him today a white supremacist for the intellectual elite. For the same reason, I don't have any hopes toward Sanders, it's not even the fault of any system, it's the culture which is the problem. One of the main reason for which John Locke wants to exclude the atheists is they don't form communities (and so, they don't weaken the central state which is a threat to property and liberty)... But if you allow racism which allows the creation of communities from other powerful engines than religion they are welcomed, that's the political culture within the anglosaxon world. That's why I think religious fanatism, hatred and resentment is consubstantial to this social order. That's the reason why historically, workers' rights have been subpar here and why the exportation of this societal model within the world is a problem. From the conservative who are neoliberals and sometimes borderline rascists to the centrist who are a bunch of technocrats to the anglosaxon left who is obsessed with the races, communities and in short, identities, I don't think any kind of public good can emerge. trying to get a good healthcare in usa is like banging his head against a wall. The only good thing with Sanders is he might not be a less imperialistic than some other democrats. I'm confused by your assertions. Are you saying that it's impossible for any American to not be identitarian? Jacobin magazine identifies as socialist explicitly and is universalist implicitly. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23814 Posts
On February 16 2020 05:04 stilt wrote: I don't really get why this post is warned... That said, it's weird seeing anglosaxon politics naming themselves jacobin even if they pretend to be leftist, identitary politics is so deeply rooted within anglosaxon political culture that he doesn't match at all. Srsly how can they identify themselves to Saint-Just ? His defense of centralism, universalism (who are the inherent condition for social and even civilizational progress according to him) would make him today a white supremacist for the intellectual elite. For the same reason, I don't have any hopes toward Sanders, it's not even the fault of any system, it's the culture which is the problem. One of the main reason for which John Locke wants to exclude the atheists is they don't form communities (and so, they don't weaken the central state which is a threat to property and liberty)... But if you allow racism which allows the creation of communities from other powerful engines than religion they are welcomed, that's the political culture within the anglosaxon world. That's why I think religious fanatism, hatred and resentment is consubstantial to this social order. That's the reason why historically, workers' rights have been subpar here and why the exportation of this societal model within the world is a problem. From the conservative who are neoliberals and sometimes borderline rascists to the centrist who are a bunch of technocrats to the anglosaxon left who is obsessed with the races, communities and in short, identities, I don't think any kind of public good can emerge. trying to get a good healthcare in usa is like banging his head against a wall. The only good thing with Sanders is he might not be a less imperialistic than some other democrats. Well I was warned (correctly) as per the rules of the thread in explaining what’s in a link and how it factors in to the discussion. It’s just a name to use, really based on their output I don’t put a huge amount of signifance in it. By contemporary standards almost every historical figure is either wrong or a total piece of shit. I’m honestly unsure as to what your wider points are here, perhaps a failure in reading comprehension from my perspective. You seem to simultaneously be arguing that racism is bad but trying to rectify historic racism is also a problem as it fixates on ‘identity’, perhaps I am misreading though. Or are you arguing that class solidarity should, or needs to outweigh other identity signifiers to have meaningful left wing change happening? Again, it’s both not your first language and I’m a little drunk so any misunderstanding is probably my fault here. | ||
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Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
I've just read the last page and saw Denmark mentioned in comparison to USA. I know little about US politics and unions but a bit more about danish ones by the fact that I am danish =) You can NOT compare the two. Well you can, but you can't compare isolated parts of the danish welfare system and the system in the US. Yes we don't have a minimum wage by law in DK. But technically we do because of the unions. But the unions are historically very strong and because of that there weren't any need to make a law about wage. But since unions in the US (as i understand) are far less powerful in the US a minimum wage by law (as you already have) might be they way to get the low income class up a tier -so to speak. I just find the whole comparing Nordic countries to the US a bit weird. The basis of our society and the way if was shaped historically makes this comparison a moot point imo. Yes you can strive to do it like "we" do, but you can't copy our methods. So saying there is no need for a minimum wage by law, since we don't have one in DK, is maybe not the right argument. There are other factors and it a quite big picture. I'm Danish - AMA =) | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22696 Posts
Mike Bloomberg could team up with Hillary Clinton to try to take down President Trump in November — by making her his running mate. Bloomberg’s internal polling found the combo “would be a formidable force,” sources close to the campaign told the Drudge Report Saturday. Bloomberg’s communications director did not deny the rumored matchmaking effort. nypost.com You all as excited for that as I am? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21357 Posts
On February 16 2020 20:04 GreenHorizons wrote: I'd give that the same probability as every other 'Clinton is running' rumor since 2016."Sources close to the (Bloomberg) campaign" floating rumors about a Bloomberg/Clinton ticket nypost.com You all as excited for that as I am? Near 0. Also note how the article does not go beyond 'polling said it would be good'. Polling would also show that running Obama would be good for beating Trump. Its clickbait, nothing more. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7119 Posts
On February 16 2020 20:04 GreenHorizons wrote: "Sources close to the (Bloomberg) campaign" floating rumors about a Bloomberg/Clinton ticket nypost.com You all as excited for that as I am? Our Utmost Try at Offering Federal Trust to Our Understanding Cohort of Honest politicians. | ||
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