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On February 15 2020 00:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Blog post about app development and software engineering practices. What went wrong with the Iowa app. I think this is a good insight into what went wrong for those of you who aren't software engineers. The software was a disaster because the election was treated as a shopping app or some other risk doesn't matter situation. This is unacceptable obviously, but standard practice in the software engineering world. There are people who work in life sciences where bugs would kill people, but that level of risk isn't true for the vast majority of the field and the business practices reflect that. https://www.bitlog.com/2020/02/12/why-are-we-so-bad-at-software-engineering/
This does a good job of explaining to why most people with a software development background and even a modest knowledge of security cringe at the concept of electronic voting. Is it possible to implement electronic voting correctly? Theoretically yes, but to do so would require it to be treated with the same level of seriousness as aviation, automotive, or medical software. The voting software would have to be certified in a similar fashion to aviation software and with the added requirement of being completely transparent so people can trust it, ideally with inclusion of a mandatory paper trail. Unfortunately, those that would be making the kinds of decisions necessary to implement these kinds of requirements don't seem to understand how dangerous it is not to do so, and thus we end up with stuff like this caucus app that was thrown together by inexperienced people copy/pasting code directly from free tutorials while using little in terms of actual security measures, elections data being stored on unsecured servers accessible to the public (*cough*Georgia*cough*), or voting machines that can be trivially broken into and tampered with via a USB stick.
Until we get folks in charge of elections that can demonstrate that they understand the seriousness of how dangerous electronic voting systems can be, it's best to stick with paper ballots and manual counting. Even then, it's probably still best to just stick to paper.
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On February 15 2020 01:51 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2020 00:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Blog post about app development and software engineering practices. What went wrong with the Iowa app. I think this is a good insight into what went wrong for those of you who aren't software engineers. The software was a disaster because the election was treated as a shopping app or some other risk doesn't matter situation. This is unacceptable obviously, but standard practice in the software engineering world. There are people who work in life sciences where bugs would kill people, but that level of risk isn't true for the vast majority of the field and the business practices reflect that. https://www.bitlog.com/2020/02/12/why-are-we-so-bad-at-software-engineering/ This does a good job of explaining to why most people with a software development background and even a modest knowledge of security cringe at the concept of electronic voting. Is it possible to implement electronic voting correctly? Theoretically yes, but to do so would require it to be treated with the same level of seriousness as aviation, automotive, or medical software. The voting software would have to be certified in a similar fashion to aviation software and with the added requirement of being completely transparent so people can trust it, ideally with inclusion of a mandatory paper trail. Unfortunately, those that would be making the kinds of decisions necessary to implement these kinds of requirements don't seem to understand how dangerous it is not to do so, and thus we end up with stuff like this caucus app that was thrown together by inexperienced people copy/pasting code directly from free tutorials, elections data being stored on unsecured servers accessible to the public (*cough*Georgia*cough*), or voting machines that can be trivially broken into and tampered with via a USB stick. Until we get folks in charge of elections that can demonstrate that they understand the seriousness of how dangerous electronic voting systems can be, it's best to stick with paper ballots and manual counting. Even then, it's probably still best to just stick to paper.
It always comes down to "but we should also have a paper trail". Canada uses paper for all elections. It doesn't take long to finish. They have a good system and execute well. The idea that we need to modernize voting through apps is fucking stupid. It works and there is no (worthwhile) room for improvement over Canada's system.
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On February 15 2020 01:54 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2020 01:51 Ben... wrote:On February 15 2020 00:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Blog post about app development and software engineering practices. What went wrong with the Iowa app. I think this is a good insight into what went wrong for those of you who aren't software engineers. The software was a disaster because the election was treated as a shopping app or some other risk doesn't matter situation. This is unacceptable obviously, but standard practice in the software engineering world. There are people who work in life sciences where bugs would kill people, but that level of risk isn't true for the vast majority of the field and the business practices reflect that. https://www.bitlog.com/2020/02/12/why-are-we-so-bad-at-software-engineering/ This does a good job of explaining to why most people with a software development background and even a modest knowledge of security cringe at the concept of electronic voting. Is it possible to implement electronic voting correctly? Theoretically yes, but to do so would require it to be treated with the same level of seriousness as aviation, automotive, or medical software. The voting software would have to be certified in a similar fashion to aviation software and with the added requirement of being completely transparent so people can trust it, ideally with inclusion of a mandatory paper trail. Unfortunately, those that would be making the kinds of decisions necessary to implement these kinds of requirements don't seem to understand how dangerous it is not to do so, and thus we end up with stuff like this caucus app that was thrown together by inexperienced people copy/pasting code directly from free tutorials, elections data being stored on unsecured servers accessible to the public (*cough*Georgia*cough*), or voting machines that can be trivially broken into and tampered with via a USB stick. Until we get folks in charge of elections that can demonstrate that they understand the seriousness of how dangerous electronic voting systems can be, it's best to stick with paper ballots and manual counting. Even then, it's probably still best to just stick to paper. It always comes down to "but we should also have a paper trail". Canada uses paper for all elections. It doesn't take long to finish. They have a good system and execute well. The idea that we need to modernize voting through apps is fucking stupid. It works and there is no (worthwhile) room for improvement over Canada's system.
Yes, to be clear, I am strongly against electronic voting. Our system here in Canada is fantastic. Everything has a paper trail by design and it's a simple system to explain to anyone. You register, they mail you a card, you take the card and two pieces of ID (they list the accepted ID types on the card to keep it simple. It can be things like your health card, a piece of mail with your name and address, your driver's license, etc.), hand them your voter card and ID, they check you off a list, then you vote. Every vote is accounted for and every vote has a paper trail. It's a fantastic system.
The only time I would even remotely consider electronic voting is for people in extremely remote regions, but even in that case a mail-in ballot would do just as well.
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On February 15 2020 01:54 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2020 01:51 Ben... wrote:On February 15 2020 00:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Blog post about app development and software engineering practices. What went wrong with the Iowa app. I think this is a good insight into what went wrong for those of you who aren't software engineers. The software was a disaster because the election was treated as a shopping app or some other risk doesn't matter situation. This is unacceptable obviously, but standard practice in the software engineering world. There are people who work in life sciences where bugs would kill people, but that level of risk isn't true for the vast majority of the field and the business practices reflect that. https://www.bitlog.com/2020/02/12/why-are-we-so-bad-at-software-engineering/ This does a good job of explaining to why most people with a software development background and even a modest knowledge of security cringe at the concept of electronic voting. Is it possible to implement electronic voting correctly? Theoretically yes, but to do so would require it to be treated with the same level of seriousness as aviation, automotive, or medical software. The voting software would have to be certified in a similar fashion to aviation software and with the added requirement of being completely transparent so people can trust it, ideally with inclusion of a mandatory paper trail. Unfortunately, those that would be making the kinds of decisions necessary to implement these kinds of requirements don't seem to understand how dangerous it is not to do so, and thus we end up with stuff like this caucus app that was thrown together by inexperienced people copy/pasting code directly from free tutorials, elections data being stored on unsecured servers accessible to the public (*cough*Georgia*cough*), or voting machines that can be trivially broken into and tampered with via a USB stick. Until we get folks in charge of elections that can demonstrate that they understand the seriousness of how dangerous electronic voting systems can be, it's best to stick with paper ballots and manual counting. Even then, it's probably still best to just stick to paper. It always comes down to "but we should also have a paper trail". Canada uses paper for all elections. It doesn't take long to finish. They have a good system and execute well. The idea that we need to modernize voting through apps is fucking stupid. It works and there is no (worthwhile) room for improvement over Canada's system.
it would make it easier to vote if you could vote from home and mail in a separate paper ballot.
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On February 15 2020 02:42 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2020 01:54 Mohdoo wrote:On February 15 2020 01:51 Ben... wrote:On February 15 2020 00:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Blog post about app development and software engineering practices. What went wrong with the Iowa app. I think this is a good insight into what went wrong for those of you who aren't software engineers. The software was a disaster because the election was treated as a shopping app or some other risk doesn't matter situation. This is unacceptable obviously, but standard practice in the software engineering world. There are people who work in life sciences where bugs would kill people, but that level of risk isn't true for the vast majority of the field and the business practices reflect that. https://www.bitlog.com/2020/02/12/why-are-we-so-bad-at-software-engineering/ This does a good job of explaining to why most people with a software development background and even a modest knowledge of security cringe at the concept of electronic voting. Is it possible to implement electronic voting correctly? Theoretically yes, but to do so would require it to be treated with the same level of seriousness as aviation, automotive, or medical software. The voting software would have to be certified in a similar fashion to aviation software and with the added requirement of being completely transparent so people can trust it, ideally with inclusion of a mandatory paper trail. Unfortunately, those that would be making the kinds of decisions necessary to implement these kinds of requirements don't seem to understand how dangerous it is not to do so, and thus we end up with stuff like this caucus app that was thrown together by inexperienced people copy/pasting code directly from free tutorials, elections data being stored on unsecured servers accessible to the public (*cough*Georgia*cough*), or voting machines that can be trivially broken into and tampered with via a USB stick. Until we get folks in charge of elections that can demonstrate that they understand the seriousness of how dangerous electronic voting systems can be, it's best to stick with paper ballots and manual counting. Even then, it's probably still best to just stick to paper. It always comes down to "but we should also have a paper trail". Canada uses paper for all elections. It doesn't take long to finish. They have a good system and execute well. The idea that we need to modernize voting through apps is fucking stupid. It works and there is no (worthwhile) room for improvement over Canada's system. it would make it easier to vote if you could vote from home and mail in a separate paper ballot.
Yeah, since Oregon is the best state, we already do that.
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On February 15 2020 02:42 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2020 01:54 Mohdoo wrote:On February 15 2020 01:51 Ben... wrote:On February 15 2020 00:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Blog post about app development and software engineering practices. What went wrong with the Iowa app. I think this is a good insight into what went wrong for those of you who aren't software engineers. The software was a disaster because the election was treated as a shopping app or some other risk doesn't matter situation. This is unacceptable obviously, but standard practice in the software engineering world. There are people who work in life sciences where bugs would kill people, but that level of risk isn't true for the vast majority of the field and the business practices reflect that. https://www.bitlog.com/2020/02/12/why-are-we-so-bad-at-software-engineering/ This does a good job of explaining to why most people with a software development background and even a modest knowledge of security cringe at the concept of electronic voting. Is it possible to implement electronic voting correctly? Theoretically yes, but to do so would require it to be treated with the same level of seriousness as aviation, automotive, or medical software. The voting software would have to be certified in a similar fashion to aviation software and with the added requirement of being completely transparent so people can trust it, ideally with inclusion of a mandatory paper trail. Unfortunately, those that would be making the kinds of decisions necessary to implement these kinds of requirements don't seem to understand how dangerous it is not to do so, and thus we end up with stuff like this caucus app that was thrown together by inexperienced people copy/pasting code directly from free tutorials, elections data being stored on unsecured servers accessible to the public (*cough*Georgia*cough*), or voting machines that can be trivially broken into and tampered with via a USB stick. Until we get folks in charge of elections that can demonstrate that they understand the seriousness of how dangerous electronic voting systems can be, it's best to stick with paper ballots and manual counting. Even then, it's probably still best to just stick to paper. It always comes down to "but we should also have a paper trail". Canada uses paper for all elections. It doesn't take long to finish. They have a good system and execute well. The idea that we need to modernize voting through apps is fucking stupid. It works and there is no (worthwhile) room for improvement over Canada's system. it would make it easier to vote if you could vote from home and mail in a separate paper ballot.
Easier yes, more secure no. The problem with mail-in ballots is that you wind up with situations like the states where some nefarious party harvests ballots -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_North_Carolina%27s_9th_congressional_district_election
It's difficult to vote by mail: but not impossible in Canada - You have to work to be able to do it, which minimizes this problem.
https://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=faq&document=faqvbm&lang=e
In Canada, I generally have to go in person to vote, but I can do it on a number of advance voting days, or on election day. Make it easier to vote, but no less secure. I would not want to compromise on security by having voting be done in a way which can be compromised. Mohdoo went over the procedure, but we also get a contiguous 4h off to vote on election day itself, employers MUST provide 4h somewhere in the workday for employees to vote. Not quite a holiday, but good enough.
https://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=secure&document=p3&lang=e - voting uses paper ballots
https://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=secure&document=p4&lang=e - voting is counted by hand
Canada has everything from large urban (Vancouver/Toronto/Montreal 1M+ people) to tiny rural (Nunavut has ~40k people in an area ~3x the size of Texas), and we manage to count votes by hand/paper, and release pretty good preliminary results within 30min-3h of polls closing.
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what i meant was allow electronic voting through some decently secure means and also follow up w mail. that way a quick count can be done and its backed by a hard copy. i assume that would be harder to secure than a self-contained system located in a distinct voting location, but still possible.
the other alternative is to make voting day a mandatory national holiday. but i presume that our very industrious business organizations would agree that even a very expensive secure voting system is cheaper than a free holiday every vote
can one put a price on freedom and self determination?
yes one can put a price on everything
but freedom is the american way
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You don't even need a new holiday. Just use a sunday to vote. Though a voting holiday would be nice, and celebrating democracy in that way does feel like a good idea.
I still haven't seen any reason as to why electronic would be better than paper ballots. Even if you somehow make a magically completely secure electronic voting systems which is impossible to tamper with, how do you prove to a 70-year old retired carpenter that this electronic system actually counts his votes, and adds all of the votes up fairly? Because it is not enough for the system to be secure. It needs to be secure in a way that everyone actually trusts it to be secure. The safeguards you put into paper voting are of the kind which pretty much everyone can understand. The safeguards you put into electronic voting are basically completely arcane and require you to trust someone to tell you that it is indeed safe.
With paper, the system is very obvious. It is very clear that your vote is being counted exactly the way you voted. Instead of spending all this time, money and effort onto systems which everyone who actually knows stuff about software thinks is a very bad idea (and which sounds like a very bad idea even if you know nothing about software), spend money and effort onto having more polling stations and handling the paper ballots correctly.
And honestly, voting is about the last place a democracy should try to save money at.
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This whole Culinary Union thing is such horse shit. This garbage truck of an organization that is supposed to empower workers dishes this nonsense saying all medical needs being covered by the government would result in worse coverage, LOL. Literally complete and total coverage, being worse than incomplete coverage. Its some 1984 shit. And so people unload on these morons, as they should, and now they are crying about it.
Get the fuck over yourself, you pile of trash. It is totally fine to yell at people.
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Related, I saw something yesterday about the union leadership having a conflict of interest on this topic. I think it's something like they're on the board of trustees for the union's health fund.
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On February 15 2020 07:07 Kyadytim wrote:Related, I saw something yesterday about the union leadership having a conflict of interest on this topic. I think it's something like they're on the board of trustees for the union's health fund. https://twitter.com/danrolle/status/1227819273218772992
It was only a matter of time before something like this came out. Saying workers would be harmed by decoupling employment and insurance was an awfully questionable thing for a union to say. When suddenly, we find that link has managed to be profitable for some people. Imagine that!
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On February 15 2020 07:07 Kyadytim wrote:Related, I saw something yesterday about the union leadership having a conflict of interest on this topic. I think it's something like they're on the board of trustees for the union's health fund. https://twitter.com/danrolle/status/1227819273218772992
lmao, now the attack from their leadership makes sense.
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On February 14 2020 04:21 Zaros wrote:
This could be a big boost to one of the moderates in Nevada
User was warned for this post.
I personally think this image is discriminatory. Why is the black guy the server? I've seen more black chefs in my lifetime than black servers... Reminds me of the "GET OUT" movie where black people are the servants... Or am I looking too much into it?
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On February 15 2020 03:12 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2020 02:42 IgnE wrote:On February 15 2020 01:54 Mohdoo wrote:On February 15 2020 01:51 Ben... wrote:On February 15 2020 00:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Blog post about app development and software engineering practices. What went wrong with the Iowa app. I think this is a good insight into what went wrong for those of you who aren't software engineers. The software was a disaster because the election was treated as a shopping app or some other risk doesn't matter situation. This is unacceptable obviously, but standard practice in the software engineering world. There are people who work in life sciences where bugs would kill people, but that level of risk isn't true for the vast majority of the field and the business practices reflect that. https://www.bitlog.com/2020/02/12/why-are-we-so-bad-at-software-engineering/ This does a good job of explaining to why most people with a software development background and even a modest knowledge of security cringe at the concept of electronic voting. Is it possible to implement electronic voting correctly? Theoretically yes, but to do so would require it to be treated with the same level of seriousness as aviation, automotive, or medical software. The voting software would have to be certified in a similar fashion to aviation software and with the added requirement of being completely transparent so people can trust it, ideally with inclusion of a mandatory paper trail. Unfortunately, those that would be making the kinds of decisions necessary to implement these kinds of requirements don't seem to understand how dangerous it is not to do so, and thus we end up with stuff like this caucus app that was thrown together by inexperienced people copy/pasting code directly from free tutorials, elections data being stored on unsecured servers accessible to the public (*cough*Georgia*cough*), or voting machines that can be trivially broken into and tampered with via a USB stick. Until we get folks in charge of elections that can demonstrate that they understand the seriousness of how dangerous electronic voting systems can be, it's best to stick with paper ballots and manual counting. Even then, it's probably still best to just stick to paper. It always comes down to "but we should also have a paper trail". Canada uses paper for all elections. It doesn't take long to finish. They have a good system and execute well. The idea that we need to modernize voting through apps is fucking stupid. It works and there is no (worthwhile) room for improvement over Canada's system. it would make it easier to vote if you could vote from home and mail in a separate paper ballot. Easier yes, more secure no. The problem with mail-in ballots is that you wind up with situations like the states where some nefarious party harvests ballots -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_North_Carolina%27s_9th_congressional_district_election It's difficult to vote by mail: but not impossible in Canada - You have to work to be able to do it, which minimizes this problem. https://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=faq&document=faqvbm&lang=eIn Canada, I generally have to go in person to vote, but I can do it on a number of advance voting days, or on election day. Make it easier to vote, but no less secure. I would not want to compromise on security by having voting be done in a way which can be compromised. Mohdoo went over the procedure, but we also get a contiguous 4h off to vote on election day itself, employers MUST provide 4h somewhere in the workday for employees to vote. Not quite a holiday, but good enough. https://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=secure&document=p3&lang=e - voting uses paper ballots https://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=secure&document=p4&lang=e - voting is counted by hand Canada has everything from large urban (Vancouver/Toronto/Montreal 1M+ people) to tiny rural (Nunavut has ~40k people in an area ~3x the size of Texas), and we manage to count votes by hand/paper, and release pretty good preliminary results within 30min-3h of polls closing.
We do mail in voting in Colorado and we have the second highest turnout in America. I always drop off my ballot rather than mail it back, though, due to not trusting the mail people.
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Minnesota has absentee ballot or early voting for no cause given as well. I vote at the local courthouse/government building for all but the general elections.
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Northern Ireland23816 Posts
On February 15 2020 07:22 Mohdoo wrote:It was only a matter of time before something like this came out. Saying workers would be harmed by decoupling employment and insurance was an awfully questionable thing for a union to say. When suddenly, we find that link has managed to be profitable for some people. Imagine that!
Haha quel fucking surprise.
At times I do sort of get the US populace’s less positive views on unions and this would definitely be one of those times.
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Culinary union coming out against Sanders or Warren is a pretty good example of the take I made a few days ago, shifting control over healthcare entirely to the federal government is very quickly going to run into conflict not only with middle class but also working-class organisations and unions who are essentially disempowered by handing control over insurance from collective bargaining over to politicians in Washington.
Disempowering local institutions like unions or employers also seems like a significant problem if hardcore Republicans ever get their hands on a hypothetical national healthcare service.
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On February 15 2020 08:52 Nyxisto wrote:
Culinary union coming out against Sanders or Warren is a pretty good example of the take I made a few days ago, shifting control over healthcare entirely to the federal government is very quickly going to run into conflict not only with middle class but also working-class organisations and unions who are essentially disempowered by handing control over insurance from collective bargaining over to politicians in Washington.
Disempowering local institutions like unions or employers also seems like a significant problem if hardcore Republicans ever get their hands on a hypothetical national healthcare service.
The resistance in this case was from the leadership that was profiting off of being a middle man between union workers and their healthcare.
They aren't disempowered, they are empowered to never have to bargain for their right to healthcare again allowing them to focus on wages, and other benefits.
Again the resistance is from those that profit from the status quo and those manipulated by their blatently misleading propaganda.
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On February 15 2020 08:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:I personally think this image is discriminatory. Why is the black guy the server? I've seen more black chefs in my lifetime than black servers... Reminds me of the "GET OUT" movie where black people are the servants... Or am I looking too much into it?
I don't think there's a significant status difference between a server and a chef in this context, so I don't find the image potentially discriminatory. They're both "servants" to me.
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On February 15 2020 08:52 Nyxisto wrote:
Culinary union coming out against Sanders or Warren is a pretty good example of the take I made a few days ago, shifting control over healthcare entirely to the federal government is very quickly going to run into conflict not only with middle class but also working-class organisations and unions who are essentially disempowered by handing control over insurance from collective bargaining over to politicians in Washington.
Disempowering local institutions like unions or employers also seems like a significant problem if hardcore Republicans ever get their hands on a hypothetical national healthcare service.
What do you mean by "local institutions like employers"? Employers small enough to figure as "local" overwhelmingly do not provide healthcare as a benefit, and if they do, they complain about it loudly. And the "power" of rent seeking like that seemingly practiced by the culinary union discussed above is not a virtue unto itself, it's a point of stickiness that shows how much damage the business-ification of public entities like unions and government agencies can do. The UAW FCA branch's overt corruption and consequent investigation is emblematic of this trend as well.
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EPT
