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On February 14 2020 08:50 Introvert wrote:Seems about par for the course. From what I've seen Sanders rarely gets in the mud but lets his surrogates act however they want. Was like that in 2016 too. IIRC his campaign manager in 2016 (who also has a role in 2020?) in particular is/was knwn for being a nasty piece of work behind the scenes.
You gonna contrast that with the whole other tier of awful behind the scenes work done by other candidates and their surrogates or no?
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Since Bernie is one of the two frontrunners, I wonder if this "Bernie's supporters are mean" narrative will have much of an effect against him in the primaries. It seems lukewarm compared to the "grab 'em by the pussy" leaked tape of Trump in his 2016 campaign, but maybe on average Democrat voters are more sensitive than Republican voters.
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On February 14 2020 14:05 JohnDelaney wrote:
Since Bernie is one of the two frontrunners, I wonder if this "Bernie's supporters are mean" narrative will have much of an effect against him in the primaries. It seems lukewarm compared to the "grab 'em by the pussy" leaked tape of Trump in his 2016 campaign, but maybe on average Democrat voters are more sensitive than Republican voters.
Democrats are definitely more sensitive. However, it's something a little different too.
It's the "GET OUT WARREN. You're done and you better support Bernie or you're a fake. You're a shill. You're not a real progressive. YOU BETTER SUPPORT BERNIE OR ELSE." I'm sure all those Warren supporters are just lining up to support Bernie after that.
Do you think the Buttigieg supporters are going to support a candidate whose supporters keep calling their candidate "Mayor Cheat"?
Bernie supporters try to pick a fight with every other candidate. Bernie himself mostly stays clean, but his supporters just love to dump on everyone else. It worked for Trump in 2016 where Trump himself dumped on everyone, but I'm not so sure that's the strategy that the Bernie camp should try to copy.
As said, Democrats are a bit more sensitive with more "purity tests". Republicans hum and haw, shake their fists, but then put party over country anyways. Democrats seem to be more loosely aligned without too many people who would call themselves hardcore democrat. I still pretty much call myself an "independent" even though I'll probably vote straight Democrat/Green (for some local offices) in the next election.
I don't think dumping on fellow candidates is a good way to get large amounts of support in the democratic field. I think Sanders is going to have a hard time building a coalition to get above 50%. Whereas Biden, Buttigieg, Klobuchar, and Bloomberg can easily form a coalition. Warren is a wildcard, she still mostly aligns with Bernie on the issues, but I don't think her supporters are going to be too enthused about backing Sanders even if she does.
* Disclaimer: I still vote Sanders over Trump, but no chance I support him in the primary.
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This mostly comes from the fact that the democratic party is supposed to cover a very large array of ideologies, while the republican party mostly doesn't.
I typically find it a little bit offensive when leftists tell liberals that they are forced to vote for a leftist, and likewise when liberals tell leftists that they are forced to vote for a liberal. I think your position makes a lot of sense, I wouldn't expect you to vote for Bernie in the primary based on what you believe, and I thank you for your decision when it comes to the general. I crack a few jokes about "unity" from time to time but it's out of bitterness more than anything else. It's not something that I'm taking for granted.
Imo the goal is to end up with a political setup where people like you get to vote for the rightwing party. This sounds like I don't like you and want you off the left I realize, sorry^^, but this is precisely because such a setup would mean that you could end up voting for the right without it defining you as morally reprehensible in the eyes of the left.
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On February 14 2020 15:32 Nebuchad wrote:Imo the goal is to end up with a political setup where people like you get to vote for the rightwing party. This sounds like I don't like you and want you off the left I realize, sorry^^, but this is precisely because such a setup would mean that you could end up voting for the right without it defining you as morally reprehensible in the eyes of the left.
Would a better way to word this be something like "American Democratic liberals being on the right would mean the Republican party as it currently exists in the US no longer exists and that is a big step forward"?
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On February 14 2020 15:40 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2020 15:32 Nebuchad wrote:Imo the goal is to end up with a political setup where people like you get to vote for the rightwing party. This sounds like I don't like you and want you off the left I realize, sorry^^, but this is precisely because such a setup would mean that you could end up voting for the right without it defining you as morally reprehensible in the eyes of the left. Would a better way to word this be something like "American Democratic liberals being on the right would mean the Republican party as it currently exists in the US no longer exists and that is a big step forward"?
Probably, yes.
I don't know which is more likely, that or the end of the two party system. Obviously the latter has my preference.
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I'm sure someone will say Bernie supporters are trying to take people's healthcare away again (or some similar bs), they'll get called out, and Bernie will be expected to rebuke more vague behavior from random people on the internet.
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Devils advocate. When it was Maga supporters posting hateful things on the internet, we judged trump for not reigning them in. If you have a political movement, you are responsible for it and if some members are out of line, you have to bring them back into line. Nothing wrong with that. But I guess for Bernie it's different now, cause he is your guy.
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On February 14 2020 23:21 Broetchenholer wrote:
Devils advocate. When it was Maga supporters posting hateful things on the internet, we judged trump for not reigning them in. If you have a political movement, you are responsible for it and if some members are out of line, you have to bring them back into line. Nothing wrong with that. But I guess for Bernie it's different now, cause he is your guy.
Did you miss the part where Bernie did the very thing that Trump didn’t with regards to his supporters?
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On February 14 2020 23:21 Broetchenholer wrote:
Devils advocate. When it was Maga supporters posting hateful things on the internet, we judged trump for not reigning them in. If you have a political movement, you are responsible for it and if some members are out of line, you have to bring them back into line. Nothing wrong with that. But I guess for Bernie it's different now, cause he is your guy.
I don't particularly blame Trump for his online supporters fwiw, online politics were trash way before he became president. Arguably Trump's rhetoric and message are directly tied to most types of harassment, while there is no such clear link when it comes to Bernie, so it still makes sense to have a double standard.
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On February 14 2020 23:21 Broetchenholer wrote:
Devils advocate. When it was Maga supporters posting hateful things on the internet, we judged trump for not reigning them in. If you have a political movement, you are responsible for it and if some members are out of line, you have to bring them back into line. Nothing wrong with that. But I guess for Bernie it's different now, cause he is your guy.
Bernie doesn't "joke" about having people "doxx" those opposed to him. The same way Trump "jokes" about wanting to shoot border hoppers.
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On February 14 2020 23:25 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2020 23:21 Broetchenholer wrote:
Devils advocate. When it was Maga supporters posting hateful things on the internet, we judged trump for not reigning them in. If you have a political movement, you are responsible for it and if some members are out of line, you have to bring them back into line. Nothing wrong with that. But I guess for Bernie it's different now, cause he is your guy. Did you miss the part where Bernie did the very thing that Trump didn’t with regards to his supporters?
Did you see me make the claim he didn't? I am not saying Bernie is as responsible as trump is for what his supporters do, I am just saying it's unfounded to be cynical about him stating bullying is not part of his platform and should not be used in his name. And I am saying it's ironic that the most aggressive Bernie supporter on this forum is offended that Bernie has to condemn bullying in the name of a political campaign.
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On February 15 2020 00:00 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2020 23:25 farvacola wrote:On February 14 2020 23:21 Broetchenholer wrote:
Devils advocate. When it was Maga supporters posting hateful things on the internet, we judged trump for not reigning them in. If you have a political movement, you are responsible for it and if some members are out of line, you have to bring them back into line. Nothing wrong with that. But I guess for Bernie it's different now, cause he is your guy. Did you miss the part where Bernie did the very thing that Trump didn’t with regards to his supporters? Did you see me make the claim he didn't? I am not saying Bernie is as responsible as trump is for what his supporters do, I am just saying it's unfounded to be cynical about him stating bullying is not part of his platform and should not be used in his name. And I am saying it's ironic that the most aggressive Bernie supporter on this forum is offended that Bernie has to condemn bullying in the name of a political campaign.
He's been prodded into doing it repeatedly and now he's having to do it for things I haven't even been able to see, that were allegedly in response to what is a ridiculous argument in the first place.
I'm not a Bernie supporter. I do recognize him as the last hope of electoralism though.
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Blog post about app development and software engineering practices. What went wrong with the Iowa app. I think this is a good insight into what went wrong for those of you who aren't software engineers. The software was a disaster because the election was treated as a shopping app or some other risk doesn't matter situation. This is unacceptable obviously, but standard practice in the software engineering world. There are people who work in life sciences where bugs would kill people, but that level of risk isn't true for the vast majority of the field and the business practices reflect that.
https://www.bitlog.com/2020/02/12/why-are-we-so-bad-at-software-engineering/
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On February 15 2020 00:00 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2020 23:25 farvacola wrote:On February 14 2020 23:21 Broetchenholer wrote:
Devils advocate. When it was Maga supporters posting hateful things on the internet, we judged trump for not reigning them in. If you have a political movement, you are responsible for it and if some members are out of line, you have to bring them back into line. Nothing wrong with that. But I guess for Bernie it's different now, cause he is your guy. Did you miss the part where Bernie did the very thing that Trump didn’t with regards to his supporters? Did you see me make the claim he didn't? I am not saying Bernie is as responsible as trump is for what his supporters do, I am just saying it's unfounded to be cynical about him stating bullying is not part of his platform and should not be used in his name. And I am saying it's ironic that the most aggressive Bernie supporter on this forum is offended that Bernie has to condemn bullying in the name of a political campaign.
What you’re implying without detailing is that the extent to which a candidate is regarded as accountable for the acts of ostensible followers is itself a political object. So yeah, Bernie fans are gonna be suspicious when folks want Bernie called to account for his followers when other Dems are held to a lower standard *and* the Dems lost a historical election to a man that is literally not accountable for anything to anyone.
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On February 15 2020 00:08 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2020 00:00 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 14 2020 23:25 farvacola wrote:On February 14 2020 23:21 Broetchenholer wrote:
Devils advocate. When it was Maga supporters posting hateful things on the internet, we judged trump for not reigning them in. If you have a political movement, you are responsible for it and if some members are out of line, you have to bring them back into line. Nothing wrong with that. But I guess for Bernie it's different now, cause he is your guy. Did you miss the part where Bernie did the very thing that Trump didn’t with regards to his supporters? Did you see me make the claim he didn't? I am not saying Bernie is as responsible as trump is for what his supporters do, I am just saying it's unfounded to be cynical about him stating bullying is not part of his platform and should not be used in his name. And I am saying it's ironic that the most aggressive Bernie supporter on this forum is offended that Bernie has to condemn bullying in the name of a political campaign. He's been prodded into doing it repeatedly and now he's having to do it for things I haven't even been able to see, that were allegedly in response to what is a ridiculous argument in the first place. I'm not a Bernie supporter. I do recognize him as the last hope of electoralism though.
Was this a typo?
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On February 15 2020 00:54 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2020 00:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 15 2020 00:00 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 14 2020 23:25 farvacola wrote:On February 14 2020 23:21 Broetchenholer wrote:
Devils advocate. When it was Maga supporters posting hateful things on the internet, we judged trump for not reigning them in. If you have a political movement, you are responsible for it and if some members are out of line, you have to bring them back into line. Nothing wrong with that. But I guess for Bernie it's different now, cause he is your guy. Did you miss the part where Bernie did the very thing that Trump didn’t with regards to his supporters? Did you see me make the claim he didn't? I am not saying Bernie is as responsible as trump is for what his supporters do, I am just saying it's unfounded to be cynical about him stating bullying is not part of his platform and should not be used in his name. And I am saying it's ironic that the most aggressive Bernie supporter on this forum is offended that Bernie has to condemn bullying in the name of a political campaign. He's been prodded into doing it repeatedly and now he's having to do it for things I haven't even been able to see, that were allegedly in response to what is a ridiculous argument in the first place. I'm not a Bernie supporter. I do recognize him as the last hope of electoralism though. Was this a typo?
I've said as much like a dozen times before now, so no.
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On February 15 2020 00:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2020 00:54 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 15 2020 00:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 15 2020 00:00 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 14 2020 23:25 farvacola wrote:On February 14 2020 23:21 Broetchenholer wrote:
Devils advocate. When it was Maga supporters posting hateful things on the internet, we judged trump for not reigning them in. If you have a political movement, you are responsible for it and if some members are out of line, you have to bring them back into line. Nothing wrong with that. But I guess for Bernie it's different now, cause he is your guy. Did you miss the part where Bernie did the very thing that Trump didn’t with regards to his supporters? Did you see me make the claim he didn't? I am not saying Bernie is as responsible as trump is for what his supporters do, I am just saying it's unfounded to be cynical about him stating bullying is not part of his platform and should not be used in his name. And I am saying it's ironic that the most aggressive Bernie supporter on this forum is offended that Bernie has to condemn bullying in the name of a political campaign. He's been prodded into doing it repeatedly and now he's having to do it for things I haven't even been able to see, that were allegedly in response to what is a ridiculous argument in the first place. I'm not a Bernie supporter. I do recognize him as the last hope of electoralism though. Was this a typo? I've said as much like a dozen times before now, so no.
I ask because you have a fervor for Bernie that makes it seem as though you are a supporter. But a disgust for others who are not as progressive as you would want them to be. So by saying you don't support Bernie Sanders, what are you saying you do support? That he's the last hope for Democracy in the USA? That his policies are sufficient for your cause, so you support his policies but not the man? That your support for Bernie goes only as far as the policies he's willing to enact that align with your beliefs?
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On February 15 2020 01:39 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2020 00:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 15 2020 00:54 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 15 2020 00:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 15 2020 00:00 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 14 2020 23:25 farvacola wrote:On February 14 2020 23:21 Broetchenholer wrote:
Devils advocate. When it was Maga supporters posting hateful things on the internet, we judged trump for not reigning them in. If you have a political movement, you are responsible for it and if some members are out of line, you have to bring them back into line. Nothing wrong with that. But I guess for Bernie it's different now, cause he is your guy. Did you miss the part where Bernie did the very thing that Trump didn’t with regards to his supporters? Did you see me make the claim he didn't? I am not saying Bernie is as responsible as trump is for what his supporters do, I am just saying it's unfounded to be cynical about him stating bullying is not part of his platform and should not be used in his name. And I am saying it's ironic that the most aggressive Bernie supporter on this forum is offended that Bernie has to condemn bullying in the name of a political campaign. He's been prodded into doing it repeatedly and now he's having to do it for things I haven't even been able to see, that were allegedly in response to what is a ridiculous argument in the first place. I'm not a Bernie supporter. I do recognize him as the last hope of electoralism though. Was this a typo? I've said as much like a dozen times before now, so no. I ask because you have a fervor for Bernie that makes it seem as though you are a supporter. But a disgust for others who are not as progressive as you would want them to be. So by saying you don't support Bernie Sanders, what are you saying you do support? That he's the last hope for Democracy in the USA? That his policies are sufficient for your cause, so you support his policies but not the man? That your support for Bernie goes only as far as the policies he's willing to enact that align with your beliefs?
My impression is that while GH sees Bernie as the most likely among the likely candidates to make significant changes, the changes are still not significant enough to earn the badge of "support". Rather than it being a matter of "best of what I got is who I support", I think GH sees it as distinct from who is "best of the bad".
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EPT
