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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On May 18 2018 07:36 Taelshin wrote:
Its a shame calling a horrific gang of monster's, Animals bothers you, but I really do not care about your feelers. Call them what you want, ill call them what I want.
Not interested in a war on drugs argument and I provided links which show why I am in favor of calling them animals, You telling me you "understand" gang violence does not make those points invalid or carry any less weight.
See if we only look at the facts, they are humans. You feel that they are animals for a few reasons that you don't seem to want to get into specifically, and so you want to call them that. Talking to me about feelings and facts in that context couldn't be a more classic case of projection.
I don't want to have a war on drugs argument. You asked me why I care, I provided some examples. I've done what you asked me to do.
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On May 18 2018 07:22 a_flayer wrote:I'm not sure whether to put this in this thread, the "Trump says stupid/crazy thing thread" or the "North Korea says stupid/crazy thing thread" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/17/north-korea-trump-latest-warning-kim-jong-un-gaddafiShow nested quote +Asked about ‘Libya model’, Trump says: ‘That model … was total decimation. That model would take place if we don’t make a deal’
Donald Trump has threatened Kim Jong-un with the same fate as Muammar Gaddafi if the North Korean leader “doesn’t make a deal” on his nuclear weapons programme. Aside from the notion that doesn't seem to understand what model they were referring to, I'm just not sure if this is the right time to double down... Maybe Moon should have told him to back off. I mean for gods sake, if I say that on Reddit or Twitter about Trump, I get banned and possibly investigated by the FBI.
Another situation where it's quite unfortunate there's a president that doesn't know much about anything nor reads information given to him. This won't inspire confidence in a safe denuclearisation.
Then again some believe this attitude from Trump is what forced the talks in the first place so maybe this will be similarly effective somehow in a way beyond our understanding.
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I can imagine that Moon and Trump were in fact often communicating when DPRK was doing its missile and nuclear weapons tests, and that some of the communication from Trump's side at the time was somewhat guided/directed by Moon so he could play the good cop in opposition of Trump. I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm saying it's possible. I'm not sure if Moon would want Trump to execute the same strategy at this particular moment in time.
It's also possible that DPRK would always have acted in this way, regardless of anything Trump said or did. It's impossible to tell with any kind of certainty.
Also: regarding all this political correctness, here's a 10 minute video from Slavoj explaining why it's just no fun. Bring a towel (oohh isn't that offensive of me!). + Show Spoiler +
Unrelated to anything said in this thread, if I want the facts, I go to Wikipedia, and then quickly move on with my life because who cares:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HumanKingdom: Animalia
Putin's a thug and a killer, Assad is a brute and an animal, etc... Why are all those things fine, but Trump calling gang members animals or Hillary calling them superpredators so bad? It's like people getting upset about the word "cunt", but think "asshole" and "dick" are fine.
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On May 18 2018 07:16 A3th3r wrote:The US continues to not spend enough on the hiring, firing, & management of employees. This is the true mark of success for a country. Although a simple google search verifies that the current umemployment rate in the States is 4.1%, definitely that number could be lower. The industry at large needs to do their part to drive the economy, at least for some token amount of time. I guess it's clear that business folks are reluctant to involve themselves too much in politics in general, but that being said, there are good reasons to occasionally connect with the "political world" just to get a glimpse of what is happening in there. It is the civic duty of successful people to choose their favorites to represent themselves in government, even if the pay isn't as good in general. Trump, for all his faults, is the person that was chosen by the electorate to represent American interests in matters of governance & national security. Beyond that, he does not have a ton of responsibilities in the arenas of "normal life" except that he is some sort of symbol of hope to the people of his country. I just worry that he will bring back the "War on Drugs" that happened under LBJ & the "military-industrial complex" of President Eisenhower, who was a former military general. http://www.industryweek.com/supply-chain/seismic-shifts-us-economy-impact-manufacturing-supply-chain
4.1% is already quite a low number and perfectly reasonable. Also that number doesn't say anything about whether enough his spent on the firing or management of employees, so not sure where you're getting that from.
and business folks involve themselves in politics all the time.
You're simply wrong on the timing of the "war on drugs"; it postdates LBJ and started under Nixon. also not sure what you're eisenhower point is about; since he was the one warning against it, not the cause of it.
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Trump was discussing MS13 members, but he always talks about them when discussing illegal immigration. He creates this impression that we, as a nation, are under siege by MS13 and gangs crawling across the boarder. And that these criminals are close to or the majority of illegal immigrants in the country.
And again, the objection to Trump using the language is that he was surrounded by law enforcement during the discussion. The very people charged with enforcing laws and assuring civil liberties are protected. That is Trumps role as well. Right before that comment, Trump also attacked our immigration laws, saying they were the worst in the world. And given Trumps general dislike of due process, I think it is easy to assess why he dislikes our immigration laws. And this attitude is reflected by ICE, the agency in charge of deportations. ICE, who recently attempted too deport someone protected by DACA under the false claim he was a gang member.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a20736392/there-are-lives-being-ruined-there-are-things-breaking-beyond-repair/
From the judge who heard the case:
Martinez, a George W. Bush appointee, was plainly incensed by the agency’s lies. ICE’s “conclusory findings,” he wrote, have “been contradicted by experts and other evidence.” The government “produced no evidence” to contradict multiple experts’ testimony discrediting ICE’s bizarre interpretation of Ramirez’s tattoo. And its claims are “completely contradictory to the government’s own previous findings after extensive background checks that were meant to uncover evidence of ‘known or suspected gang association.’ ”
And from the slate article who reported on the judge's ruling:
What may be most remarkable about Martinez’s decision, though, is its blunt repudiation of ICE’s main claim—that Ramirez is “gang-affiliated.” The judge did not simply rule against ICE. He accused the agency of lying to a court of law. The facts of Ramirez’s case are extremely disturbing. In February 2017, shortly after President Donald Trump unleashed immigration agents to amp up arrests and deportations, ICE agents went to Ramirez’s father’s house in Seattle to arrest him. (The father is undocumented, and brought Ramirez to the U.S. illegally as a child.) While there, they encountered Ramirez and asked him whether he was “legally here.” He responded that he was—a truthful statement given his DACA status, which he had renewed the previous May. Yet ICE officers detained him anyway. They took him to a processing center, where, once again, he told them that he had a work permit. “It doesn’t matter,” an agent responded, “because you weren’t born in this country.”
This is the reason why people objected so strongly to the way Trump talks about immigration as if every one of them is a MS13 gang member. Because the agencies that he controls will straight up lie to a court if they think they can deport someone. And I have no doubt they would try it with a US citizen as well, because they have in the past.
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On May 18 2018 08:04 a_flayer wrote:I can imagine that Moon and Trump were in fact often communicating when DPRK was doing its missile and nuclear weapons tests, and that some of the communication from Trump's side at the time was somewhat guided/directed by Moon so he could play the good cop in opposition of Trump. I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm saying it's possible. I'm not sure if Moon would want Trump to execute the same strategy at this particular moment in time. It's also possible that DPRK would always have acted in this way, regardless of anything Trump said or did. It's impossible to tell with any kind of certainty. Also: regarding all this political correctness, here's a 10 minute video from Slavoj explaining why it's just no fun. Bring a towel (oohh isn't that offensive of me!). + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dNbWGaaxWM Unrelated to anything said in this thread, if I want the facts, I go to Wikipedia, and then quickly move on with my life because who cares: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HumanPutin's a thug and a killer, Assad is a brute and an animal, etc... Why are all those things fine, but Trump calling gang members animals or Hillary calling them superpredators so bad? It's like people getting upset about the word "cunt", but think "asshole" and "dick" are fine.
Context matters.
Scientifically, yes, we're animals. In the same way that gravity is, scientifically, a theory.
In common language, that isn't the case. We set ourselves apart from animals. Taking a group of people and lowering them from human to "animal" is the classic starting point to rationalize away slavery, genocide, and all kinds of other shitty human behavior that we - as humans, above animals - should be better than.
Political correctness is a vaccine for shitty behavior. The more people around each other who don't observe it, even at a decent level, the more we get shit like the KKK.
Could it go overboard at times? Maybe, who the fuck am I to know, but there's a certain level of moderation that keeps us on the level.
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We probably shouldn't enslave animals either, y'know.
Or how about this one: why is it OK to lock animals up, fatten them for slaughter, and then eat them, but if you have sex with them (which they probably biochemically enjoy, right, the right stuff gets released by the brain?) that's terrible somehow? People even apply the word "rape" to that.
And no, I'm not interested in having sex with animals. And I'm fine with eating them. Doesn't make any moral or logical sense though. It's just tradition.
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Well, to be fair Margaret Mims specifically asked Trump about MS13 members and he replied:
"We'll take care of it"...."they're animals."
But nonetheless I have to disagree with Trump here.
Because comparing anyone, who stabs another human being 100 times and decapitates the corpse, to an animal is an insult to all animals. Animals only kill when they're hunting and guarding their territory / offspring.
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Here's the official transcript. No amount of retconning will limit DJT's remarks to just MS-13.
THE PRESIDENT: It’s a disgrace. Okay? It’s a disgrace.
SHERIFF MIMS: It’s a disgrace.
THE PRESIDENT: And we’re suing on that, and we’re working hard, and I think it will all come together, because people want it to come together. It’s so ridiculous. The concept that we’re even talking about is ridiculous. We’ll take care of it, Margaret. We’ll win.
SHERIFF MIMS: Thank you. There could be an MS-13 member I know about — if they don’t reach a certain threshold, I cannot tell ICE about it.
THE PRESIDENT: We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we’re stopping a lot of them — but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It’s crazy.
The dumbest laws — as I said before, the dumbest laws on immigration in the world. So we’re going to take care of it, Margaret. We’ll get it done. We’re going to ask that man right there, because that man can do it. (Laughter.) Right now he’s the most important man in the room. Kevin can do it.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/watch-the-whole-video
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Hey a_flayer, we can also have a conversation about political correctness if you want, but I don't really have a ton to say. I'm obviously not trying to make sure you don't offend MS-13 here, so it's obviously not about being politically correct, especially not since I've been asked for the reason why I don't like this and I've provided it clearly, and yet you say it anyway and expect it allows you to ridicule the whole conversation with antispecism... That says something about you too.
Perhaps the next time you tell us how bad it is that the left calls everyone nazis or whatever, I'm going to wonder why you're being so politically correct and trying to tell us what we can and can't say. Or perhaps I'll remember that this isn't what you're doing, that you make that argument for a good reason that you've stated, which is that you feel the word is being used to silence conservative voices and discard their arguments.
I'll do one of the two really. We'll see when we get there.
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Talking for pages about "Trump called these people animals" is exactly why he does it. It doesn't mean anything. It's not like he suddenly became an asshole overnight and now we're realizing it. It's not policy. Good god people, learn to recognize distractions.
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On May 18 2018 10:42 Leporello wrote:
Talking for pages about "Trump called these people animals" is exactly why he does it. It doesn't mean anything. It's not like he suddenly became an asshole overnight and now we're realizing it. It's not policy. Good god people, learn to recognize distractions.
i'd say it's slightly more than nothing; it's an endorsement of mistreating criminals; as would be consistent with his prior stances/actions. it might not be a heavily pushed policy, but it can still be a policy, and one that should be fought against.
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United States41989 Posts
On May 18 2018 07:16 A3th3r wrote:
The US continues to not spend enough on the hiring, firing, & management of employees. This is the true mark of success for a country. Although a simple google search verifies that the current umemployment rate in the States is 4.1%, definitely that number could be lower. The industry at large needs to do their part to drive the economy, at least for some token amount of time. I guess it's clear that business folks are reluctant to involve themselves too much in politics in general, but that being said, there are good reasons to occasionally connect with the "political world" just to get a glimpse of what is happening in there.
This is actually untrue. You need a base level of unemployment to provide slack and labour flexibility to the economy as a whole.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/02/news/economy/jobs-full-employment/index.html
https://www.investopedia.com/news/downside-low-unemployment/
Obviously low unemployment is generally a good thing, when compared with high unemployment at least. But it can get too low.
The real problem is taking national unemployment statistics and projecting them evenly across the economy as a whole. There are areas where there is a real shortage of qualified workers and it is hobbling economic growth, while in other areas the unemployment is many times the national average.
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On May 18 2018 09:44 a_flayer wrote:
We probably shouldn't enslave animals either, y'know.
Or how about this one: why is it OK to lock animals up, fatten them for slaughter, and then eat them, but if you have sex with them (which they probably biochemically enjoy, right, the right stuff gets released by the brain?) that's terrible somehow? People even apply the word "rape" to that.
And no, I'm not interested in having sex with animals. And I'm fine with eating them. Doesn't make any moral or logical sense though. It's just tradition.
Not my concern, that's on y'all.
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United States41989 Posts
Sigh.
Bolton proposes that NK take a similar deal to the Libya denuclearization deal in 2003 where the weapons program was dismantled and shipped out of the country. Trump is asked what he thinks about Bolton's proposed "Libya model" for a deal.
The model, if you look at that model with Gaddafi, that was a total decimation. We went in there to beat him.
You're not supposed to tell the guy that your denuclearization deal you're pushing for him to sign ends in his total decimation, and you going in there to beat him.
It's literally "take the deal or you'll suffer the same fate as the last guy stupid enough to take this exact deal we're currently pushing".
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Comparing calling Trump a Nazi and Trump calling MS13 animals. Hard to see the difference.
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On May 18 2018 10:50 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2018 07:16 A3th3r wrote:
The US continues to not spend enough on the hiring, firing, & management of employees. This is the true mark of success for a country. Although a simple google search verifies that the current umemployment rate in the States is 4.1%, definitely that number could be lower. The industry at large needs to do their part to drive the economy, at least for some token amount of time. I guess it's clear that business folks are reluctant to involve themselves too much in politics in general, but that being said, there are good reasons to occasionally connect with the "political world" just to get a glimpse of what is happening in there. This is actually untrue. You need a base level of unemployment to provide slack and labour flexibility to the economy as a whole. http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/02/news/economy/jobs-full-employment/index.htmlhttps://www.investopedia.com/news/downside-low-unemployment/Obviously low unemployment is generally a good thing, when compared with high unemployment at least. But it can get too low. The real problem is taking national unemployment statistics and projecting them evenly across the economy as a whole. There are areas where there is a real shortage of qualified workers and it is hobbling economic growth, while in other areas the unemployment is many times the national average.
Is there any statistics for people who are under employed for their skill/education level? I sometimes wonder if that is a significant problem and if people have trouble connecting to jobs that they are suited for even when there are plenty of available jobs on that level.
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On May 18 2018 12:45 Taelshin wrote:
Comparing calling Trump a Nazi and Trump calling MS13 animals. Hard to see the difference.
One of those two is the president and has vast powers to detain people.
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On May 18 2018 11:59 KwarK wrote:Sigh. Bolton proposes that NK take a similar deal to the Libya denuclearization deal in 2003 where the weapons program was dismantled and shipped out of the country. Trump is asked what he thinks about Bolton's proposed "Libya model" for a deal. Show nested quote +The model, if you look at that model with Gaddafi, that was a total decimation. We went in there to beat him. You're not supposed to tell the guy that your denuclearization deal you're pushing for him to sign ends in his total decimation, and you going in there to beat him. It's literally "take the deal or you'll suffer the same fate as the last guy stupid enough to take this exact deal we're currently pushing".
Bolton is 100% trying to sabotage talks (experts in the field seem to agree). He is the biggest proponent of a preemptive strike on NK that there is. Guy is dangerous.
There is nothing the US can offer to justify NK denuclearizing. Libyia and Iran are all the example they need of what happens when you dont have them. Trumps visit is pointless theater, most likely.
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I mean, if Bolton thinks that the US is justified in doing a pre-emptive strike, then DPRK is similarly justified in doing a pre-emptive strike.
Also on the subject:
SEOUL, South Korea—A top adviser to South Korea’s president says he would eventually like to see the U.S.-South Korea alliance end. In language that sounded almost Trump-like, Chung In Moon, a special adviser to President Moon Jae In for foreign affairs and national security, said in an interview that alliances in general are a “very unnatural state of international relations” and said that, “for me, the best thing is to really get rid of alliance.” Source
snickers
It's all falling apart!
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EPT
