EPTGaza: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6284333/tear-gas-drones-and-molotov-cocktails-delivered-by-kite-the-future-of-protest-warfare-on-display-in-gaza/
Is the IDF justified in shooting people flying flaming kites? I think so.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 209
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
|
Taelshin
Canada415 Posts
Gaza: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6284333/tear-gas-drones-and-molotov-cocktails-delivered-by-kite-the-future-of-protest-warfare-on-display-in-gaza/ Is the IDF justified in shooting people flying flaming kites? I think so. | ||
|
zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On May 18 2018 05:06 Taelshin wrote: He was talking about ms13 and they are animals, there was nothing wrong with him saying it. They are animals. Good god people. Gaza: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6284333/tear-gas-drones-and-molotov-cocktails-delivered-by-kite-the-future-of-protest-warfare-on-display-in-gaza/ Is the IDF justified in shooting people flying flaming kites? I think so. justification gets to be a very complicated question in some situations, with no ideal answers; and some intentionally create situations with no good answers to cause such difficulties. on those kites; it'd depend on a number of factors in the situation, the particular threat level of the kite, availability of alternate options, etc. also a question of whether we're focusing on legal or ethical justification. unless you want a simplistic answer, in which case I can provide an inaccurate but simplistic one. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28558 Posts
On May 18 2018 04:44 Plansix wrote: I cannot remember the last time I heard a President or Senator refer ill defined group criminal actors as “monsters” or “animals”. I’ve heard it used to describe a specific criminal, normally after they are convicted. And never as vaguely as Trump used it where I’m not even confident I know which group he was talking about. Also I heard a lot of critique of “super predators” during the democratic primary, so I do not agree with the assessment that Clinton was never called out for that language. I'm not saying she was not called out. I'm not saying what Trump said was okay. I'm saying Introvert's semi-defense of Trump's statement got a lot more flak than democrat posters who supported Hillary's statement did. Here's a relevant page: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/383301-us-politics-mega-thread?page=3029 Sermokala makes a point out of Hillary not being a leftist democrat through quoting this speech. One regular democrat posts 'Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true.' The same poster goes on to write '1. Crime was bad. Superpredator was pretty much an accurate description.' (He didn't call out Introvert so I'm not accusing this guy of being hypocritical. But Igne, GH and Sermokala are the only three posters I really see call him out for it. ) You yourself posted 'Also crime was crazy and the 80s were worse. People used to not go to central park at all, let alone at night.', which is a semi-defense of the statement -> I basically read your statement as a 'crime was so bad and the criminals were so bad that the superpredator phrase is somewhat defensible'. I have no need to rehash this argument. I am glad the current consensus now that the election is over seems to be that the superpredator phrase is on a comparable level of bad as comparing m13 members to animals is. Hillary did also say something to the effect of it being an unfortunate choice of words, and she has no problems passing the bar of being rhetorically preferable to Trump. I'm just trying to highlight that I think Introvert got more negative responses, and ones relating to his posting style, than what I think was warranted based on his statements. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
| ||
|
m4ini
4215 Posts
Hillary did also say something to the effect of it being an unfortunate choice of words, and she has no problems passing the bar of being rhetorically preferable to Trump. She actually apologised and made clear that she regrets what she said. Of course it's politspeak, it's the usual "i'm not sad that i did it, i'm sad that i got caught" thing - but still, she recognised it. | ||
|
Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
On May 18 2018 05:18 Plansix wrote: Shooting the kites would be more effective. I agree. They had snipers. The snipers could have been shooting the kites down instead of shooting people. | ||
|
m4ini
4215 Posts
On May 18 2018 05:23 Kyadytim wrote: I agree. They had snipers. The snipers could have been shooting the kites down instead of shooting people. They also have nonlethal weapons, including teargas that was used effectively. Lets not act like a kite is an unstoppable force. Were terrorists flying these kites? Pretty sure, yeah, and with that, they're combatants. But you can't just use that as justification to randomly fire into a crowd, might as well use tank guns then, and start precision-carpet bombing the middle east. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 18 2018 05:18 Liquid`Drone wrote: I'm not saying she was not called out. I'm not saying what Trump said was okay. I'm saying Introvert's semi-defense of Trump's statement got a lot more flak than democrat posters who supported Hillary's statement did. Here's a relevant page: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/383301-us-politics-mega-thread?page=3029 Sermokala makes a point out of Hillary not being a leftist democrat through quoting this speech. One regular democrat posts 'Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true.' The same poster goes on to write '1. Crime was bad. Superpredator was pretty much an accurate description.' (He didn't call out Introvert so I'm not accusing this guy of being hypocritical. But Igne, GH and Sermokala are the only three posters I really see call him out for it. ) You yourself posted 'Also crime was crazy and the 80s were worse. People used to not go to central park at all, let alone at night.', which is a semi-defense of the statement -> I basically read your statement as a 'crime was so bad and the criminals were so bad that the superpredator phrase is somewhat defensible'. I have no need to rehash this argument. I am glad the current consensus now that the election is over seems to be that the superpredator phrase is on a comparable level of bad as comparing m13 members to animals is. Hillary did also say something to the effect of it being an unfortunate choice of words, and she has no problems passing the bar of being rhetorically preferable to Trump. I'm just trying to highlight that I think Introvert got more negative responses, and ones relating to his posting style, than what I think was warranted based on his statements. That I agree with. My view on the super predator comment changed since than, but I was guilty trying to justify it at the time. And we should all avoid going back to our bullshit. | ||
|
ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
First, Hillary's comment was made kind of a long time ago. It wasn't a great comment then and it's obviously worse now, but it was clear she was referring to gang-related violence. Plus, she has a decent record of being not racist. Ultimately, she apologized for that language too. Trump on the other hand made that comment yesterday. There is some ambiguity if he was referring to MS13 or the broader latino population. And this is a guy who has a record of being kinda racist in both action and word. The Hillary thing is kind of a gotcha, whereas Trump's comment is possibly/ likely part of a broader pattern of racism. | ||
|
mikedebo
Canada4341 Posts
| ||
|
Gahlo
United States35091 Posts
On May 18 2018 06:07 mikedebo wrote: Just remember that literally the primary tactic in creating conditions for genocide is convincing everyone that the target group of people are something less than human. Hold on buddy, that's systemic ethnic cleansing over a long period of time, that only leads to genocide by accident. /s | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On the topic of immigration, a growing number of moderate republicans are spoiling for a fight about DACA and immigration reform with their conservative counterparts. Meanwhile the conservatives are threatening to hold up a farm bill unless their hard line immigration bill gets voted on, so the Senate can kill it. All during an election season. Both bills would never make it into law, since neither would make it out of the Senate. | ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland11927 Posts
On May 18 2018 05:06 Taelshin wrote: He was talking about ms13 and they are animals, there was nothing wrong with him saying it. They are animals. Good god people. All right, let's engage this idea. What makes a human an animal in your eyes? | ||
|
IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On May 18 2018 06:46 Nebuchad wrote: All right, let's engage this idea. What makes a human an animal in your eyes? why didnt you quote m4ni too who said there are a lot of animals, "not in our world [the West]," but down in "Africa?" | ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland11927 Posts
On May 18 2018 06:48 IgnE wrote: why didnt you quote m4ni too who said there are a lot of animals, "not in our world [the West]," but down in "Africa?" That's a good point, I probably should have. | ||
|
A3th3r
United States319 Posts
It is the civic duty of successful people to choose their favorites to represent themselves in government, even if the pay isn't as good in general. Trump, for all his faults, is the person that was chosen by the electorate to represent American interests in matters of governance & national security. Beyond that, he does not have a ton of responsibilities in the arenas of "normal life" except that he is some sort of symbol of hope to the people of his country. I just worry that he will bring back the "War on Drugs" that happened under LBJ & the "military-industrial complex" of President Eisenhower, who was a former military general. There continues to be a lot of envy of the US in the "developing world" http://www.industryweek.com/supply-chain/seismic-shifts-us-economy-impact-manufacturing-supply-chain | ||
|
Taelshin
Canada415 Posts
https://www.voanews.com/a/us-officials-say-ms-13-gang-is-sending-younger-more-violent-members-to-america/4214796.html https://www.reuters.com/article/us-massachusetts-crime-gang/three-ms-13-gang-members-in-massachusetts-convicted-in-murder-trial-idUSKBN1HU2WX https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/02/us/ms-13-long-island-killings/index.html Those are all interesting reads, the wiki is pretty bare bones if u just want a quick scan, highlighting the child prostitution. I think that makes my point, so ill respond with, if they are not animals, what are they? and does calling them animals really bother you that much? | ||
|
a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/17/north-korea-trump-latest-warning-kim-jong-un-gaddafi Asked about ‘Libya model’, Trump says: ‘That model … was total decimation. That model would take place if we don’t make a deal’ Donald Trump has threatened Kim Jong-un with the same fate as Muammar Gaddafi if the North Korean leader “doesn’t make a deal” on his nuclear weapons programme. Aside from the notion that doesn't seem to understand what model they were referring to, I'm just not sure if this is the right time to double down... Maybe Moon should have told him to back off. I mean for gods sake, if I say that on Reddit or Twitter about Trump, I get banned and possibly investigated by the FBI. Also: we're all fucking animals, who cares. You people and your obsession with words. | ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland11927 Posts
On May 18 2018 07:18 Taelshin wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-13 https://www.voanews.com/a/us-officials-say-ms-13-gang-is-sending-younger-more-violent-members-to-america/4214796.html https://www.reuters.com/article/us-massachusetts-crime-gang/three-ms-13-gang-members-in-massachusetts-convicted-in-murder-trial-idUSKBN1HU2WX https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/02/us/ms-13-long-island-killings/index.html Those are all interesting reads, the wiki is pretty bare bones if u just want a quick scan, highlighting the child prostitution. I think that makes my point, so ill respond with, if they are not animals, what are they? and does calling them animals really bother you that much? Do you really think the problem is that I don't understand gang violence and I need a few wiki links? That's quite condescending don't you think. They're humans, and yes, it does bother me. If we establish that some human behaviors make you an animal it is invariably used to justify treatment against them that I don't want to justify. It's also inherently counterproductive to a lot of my positions because it limits the search for solutions to issues. See I'm of the opinion that the war on drugs is counterproductive and empowers gangs like these, that's an argument I've been known to make. I can't make it if they are animals cause you know, animals are going to animal, aren't they. Those are some of the reasons why I would oppose this. Now I'd like to engage your ideas in favor of it. | ||
|
Taelshin
Canada415 Posts
Not interested in a war on drugs argument and I provided links which show why I am in favor of calling them animals, You telling me you "understand" gang violence does not make those points invalid or carry any less weight. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
| ||
