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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 209

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Taelshin
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada418 Posts
May 17 2018 20:06 GMT
#4161
He was talking about ms13 and they are animals, there was nothing wrong with him saying it. They are animals. Good god people.

Gaza: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6284333/tear-gas-drones-and-molotov-cocktails-delivered-by-kite-the-future-of-protest-warfare-on-display-in-gaza/

Is the IDF justified in shooting people flying flaming kites? I think so.
"We didnt listen"
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-17 20:17:49
May 17 2018 20:14 GMT
#4162
On May 18 2018 05:06 Taelshin wrote:
He was talking about ms13 and they are animals, there was nothing wrong with him saying it. They are animals. Good god people.

Gaza: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6284333/tear-gas-drones-and-molotov-cocktails-delivered-by-kite-the-future-of-protest-warfare-on-display-in-gaza/

Is the IDF justified in shooting people flying flaming kites? I think so.


justification gets to be a very complicated question in some situations, with no ideal answers; and some intentionally create situations with no good answers to cause such difficulties.

on those kites; it'd depend on a number of factors in the situation, the particular threat level of the kite, availability of alternate options, etc.
also a question of whether we're focusing on legal or ethical justification.

unless you want a simplistic answer, in which case I can provide an inaccurate but simplistic one.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
May 17 2018 20:18 GMT
#4163
On May 18 2018 04:44 Plansix wrote:
I cannot remember the last time I heard a President or Senator refer ill defined group criminal actors as “monsters” or “animals”. I’ve heard it used to describe a specific criminal, normally after they are convicted. And never as vaguely as Trump used it where I’m not even confident I know which group he was talking about.

Also I heard a lot of critique of “super predators” during the democratic primary, so I do not agree with the assessment that Clinton was never called out for that language.


I'm not saying she was not called out. I'm not saying what Trump said was okay. I'm saying Introvert's semi-defense of Trump's statement got a lot more flak than democrat posters who supported Hillary's statement did.

Here's a relevant page:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/383301-us-politics-mega-thread?page=3029

Sermokala makes a point out of Hillary not being a leftist democrat through quoting this speech. One regular democrat posts 'Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true.' The same poster goes on to write '1. Crime was bad. Superpredator was pretty much an accurate description.' (He didn't call out Introvert so I'm not accusing this guy of being hypocritical. But Igne, GH and Sermokala are the only three posters I really see call him out for it. )

You yourself posted 'Also crime was crazy and the 80s were worse. People used to not go to central park at all, let alone at night.', which is a semi-defense of the statement -> I basically read your statement as a 'crime was so bad and the criminals were so bad that the superpredator phrase is somewhat defensible'.

I have no need to rehash this argument. I am glad the current consensus now that the election is over seems to be that the superpredator phrase is on a comparable level of bad as comparing m13 members to animals is. Hillary did also say something to the effect of it being an unfortunate choice of words, and she has no problems passing the bar of being rhetorically preferable to Trump. I'm just trying to highlight that I think Introvert got more negative responses, and ones relating to his posting style, than what I think was warranted based on his statements.
Moderator
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 17 2018 20:18 GMT
#4164
Shooting the kites would be more effective.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
May 17 2018 20:20 GMT
#4165
Hillary did also say something to the effect of it being an unfortunate choice of words, and she has no problems passing the bar of being rhetorically preferable to Trump.


She actually apologised and made clear that she regrets what she said.

Of course it's politspeak, it's the usual "i'm not sad that i did it, i'm sad that i got caught" thing - but still, she recognised it.
On track to MA1950A.
Kyadytim
Profile Joined March 2009
United States886 Posts
May 17 2018 20:23 GMT
#4166
On May 18 2018 05:18 Plansix wrote:
Shooting the kites would be more effective.

I agree. They had snipers. The snipers could have been shooting the kites down instead of shooting people.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
May 17 2018 20:26 GMT
#4167
On May 18 2018 05:23 Kyadytim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2018 05:18 Plansix wrote:
Shooting the kites would be more effective.

I agree. They had snipers. The snipers could have been shooting the kites down instead of shooting people.


They also have nonlethal weapons, including teargas that was used effectively. Lets not act like a kite is an unstoppable force.

Were terrorists flying these kites? Pretty sure, yeah, and with that, they're combatants. But you can't just use that as justification to randomly fire into a crowd, might as well use tank guns then, and start precision-carpet bombing the middle east.
On track to MA1950A.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 17 2018 20:27 GMT
#4168
On May 18 2018 05:18 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2018 04:44 Plansix wrote:
I cannot remember the last time I heard a President or Senator refer ill defined group criminal actors as “monsters” or “animals”. I’ve heard it used to describe a specific criminal, normally after they are convicted. And never as vaguely as Trump used it where I’m not even confident I know which group he was talking about.

Also I heard a lot of critique of “super predators” during the democratic primary, so I do not agree with the assessment that Clinton was never called out for that language.


I'm not saying she was not called out. I'm not saying what Trump said was okay. I'm saying Introvert's semi-defense of Trump's statement got a lot more flak than democrat posters who supported Hillary's statement did.

Here's a relevant page:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/383301-us-politics-mega-thread?page=3029

Sermokala makes a point out of Hillary not being a leftist democrat through quoting this speech. One regular democrat posts 'Most of us were too young to remember, but crime was fucking awful and that statement was very true.' The same poster goes on to write '1. Crime was bad. Superpredator was pretty much an accurate description.' (He didn't call out Introvert so I'm not accusing this guy of being hypocritical. But Igne, GH and Sermokala are the only three posters I really see call him out for it. )

You yourself posted 'Also crime was crazy and the 80s were worse. People used to not go to central park at all, let alone at night.', which is a semi-defense of the statement -> I basically read your statement as a 'crime was so bad and the criminals were so bad that the superpredator phrase is somewhat defensible'.

I have no need to rehash this argument. I am glad the current consensus now that the election is over seems to be that the superpredator phrase is on a comparable level of bad as comparing m13 members to animals is. Hillary did also say something to the effect of it being an unfortunate choice of words, and she has no problems passing the bar of being rhetorically preferable to Trump. I'm just trying to highlight that I think Introvert got more negative responses, and ones relating to his posting style, than what I think was warranted based on his statements.

That I agree with. My view on the super predator comment changed since than, but I was guilty trying to justify it at the time. And we should all avoid going back to our bullshit.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-17 20:42:23
May 17 2018 20:41 GMT
#4169
I think there's a couple distinctions to be made between Trump and Hillary here.

First, Hillary's comment was made kind of a long time ago. It wasn't a great comment then and it's obviously worse now, but it was clear she was referring to gang-related violence. Plus, she has a decent record of being not racist. Ultimately, she apologized for that language too.

Trump on the other hand made that comment yesterday. There is some ambiguity if he was referring to MS13 or the broader latino population. And this is a guy who has a record of being kinda racist in both action and word.

The Hillary thing is kind of a gotcha, whereas Trump's comment is possibly/ likely part of a broader pattern of racism.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
mikedebo
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada4341 Posts
May 17 2018 21:07 GMT
#4170
Just remember that literally the primary tactic in creating conditions for genocide is convincing everyone that the target group of people are something less than human.
I NEED A PHOTOSYNTHESIS! ||| 'airtoss' is an anagram of 'artosis' ||| SANGHOOOOOO ||| "No Korea? No problem. I have internet." -- Stardust
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35144 Posts
May 17 2018 21:16 GMT
#4171
On May 18 2018 06:07 mikedebo wrote:
Just remember that literally the primary tactic in creating conditions for genocide is convincing everyone that the target group of people are something less than human.

Hold on buddy, that's systemic ethnic cleansing over a long period of time, that only leads to genocide by accident. /s
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-17 21:28:46
May 17 2018 21:27 GMT
#4172


On the topic of immigration, a growing number of moderate republicans are spoiling for a fight about DACA and immigration reform with their conservative counterparts. Meanwhile the conservatives are threatening to hold up a farm bill unless their hard line immigration bill gets voted on, so the Senate can kill it. All during an election season. Both bills would never make it into law, since neither would make it out of the Senate.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12172 Posts
May 17 2018 21:46 GMT
#4173
On May 18 2018 05:06 Taelshin wrote:
He was talking about ms13 and they are animals, there was nothing wrong with him saying it. They are animals. Good god people.


All right, let's engage this idea. What makes a human an animal in your eyes?
No will to live, no wish to die
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-17 21:50:00
May 17 2018 21:48 GMT
#4174
On May 18 2018 06:46 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2018 05:06 Taelshin wrote:
He was talking about ms13 and they are animals, there was nothing wrong with him saying it. They are animals. Good god people.


All right, let's engage this idea. What makes a human an animal in your eyes?


why didnt you quote m4ni too who said there are a lot of animals, "not in our world [the West]," but down in "Africa?"
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12172 Posts
May 17 2018 21:53 GMT
#4175
On May 18 2018 06:48 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2018 06:46 Nebuchad wrote:
On May 18 2018 05:06 Taelshin wrote:
He was talking about ms13 and they are animals, there was nothing wrong with him saying it. They are animals. Good god people.


All right, let's engage this idea. What makes a human an animal in your eyes?


why didnt you quote m4ni too who said there are a lot of animals, "not in our world [the West]," but down in "Africa?"


That's a good point, I probably should have.
No will to live, no wish to die
A3th3r
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
United States319 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-19 22:09:18
May 17 2018 22:16 GMT
#4176
The US continues to not spend enough on the hiring, firing, & management of employees. This is the true mark of success for a country. Although a simple google search verifies that the current umemployment rate in the States is 4.1%, definitely that number could be lower. The industry at large needs to do their part to drive the economy, at least for some token amount of time. I guess it's clear that business folks are reluctant to involve themselves too much in politics in general, but that being said, there are good reasons to occasionally connect with the "political world" just to get a glimpse of what is happening in there.

It is the civic duty of successful people to choose their favorites to represent themselves in government, even if the pay isn't as good in general. Trump, for all his faults, is the person that was chosen by the electorate to represent American interests in matters of governance & national security. Beyond that, he does not have a ton of responsibilities in the arenas of "normal life" except that he is some sort of symbol of hope to the people of his country. I just worry that he will bring back the "War on Drugs" that happened under LBJ & the "military-industrial complex" of President Eisenhower, who was a former military general. There continues to be a lot of envy of the US in the "developing world"

http://www.industryweek.com/supply-chain/seismic-shifts-us-economy-impact-manufacturing-supply-chain
stale trite schlub
Taelshin
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada418 Posts
May 17 2018 22:18 GMT
#4177
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-13

https://www.voanews.com/a/us-officials-say-ms-13-gang-is-sending-younger-more-violent-members-to-america/4214796.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-massachusetts-crime-gang/three-ms-13-gang-members-in-massachusetts-convicted-in-murder-trial-idUSKBN1HU2WX

https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/02/us/ms-13-long-island-killings/index.html

Those are all interesting reads, the wiki is pretty bare bones if u just want a quick scan, highlighting the child prostitution.
I think that makes my point, so ill respond with, if they are not animals, what are they? and does calling them animals really bother you that much?

"We didnt listen"
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-17 22:23:38
May 17 2018 22:22 GMT
#4178
I'm not sure whether to put this in this thread, the "Trump says stupid/crazy thing thread" or the "North Korea says stupid/crazy thing thread"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/17/north-korea-trump-latest-warning-kim-jong-un-gaddafi
Asked about ‘Libya model’, Trump says: ‘That model … was total decimation. That model would take place if we don’t make a deal’

Donald Trump has threatened Kim Jong-un with the same fate as Muammar Gaddafi if the North Korean leader “doesn’t make a deal” on his nuclear weapons programme.

Aside from the notion that doesn't seem to understand what model they were referring to, I'm just not sure if this is the right time to double down... Maybe Moon should have told him to back off. I mean for gods sake, if I say that on Reddit or Twitter about Trump, I get banned and possibly investigated by the FBI.


Also: we're all fucking animals, who cares. You people and your obsession with words.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12172 Posts
May 17 2018 22:26 GMT
#4179
On May 18 2018 07:18 Taelshin wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-13

https://www.voanews.com/a/us-officials-say-ms-13-gang-is-sending-younger-more-violent-members-to-america/4214796.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-massachusetts-crime-gang/three-ms-13-gang-members-in-massachusetts-convicted-in-murder-trial-idUSKBN1HU2WX

https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/02/us/ms-13-long-island-killings/index.html

Those are all interesting reads, the wiki is pretty bare bones if u just want a quick scan, highlighting the child prostitution.
I think that makes my point, so ill respond with, if they are not animals, what are they? and does calling them animals really bother you that much?


Do you really think the problem is that I don't understand gang violence and I need a few wiki links? That's quite condescending don't you think.

They're humans, and yes, it does bother me. If we establish that some human behaviors make you an animal it is invariably used to justify treatment against them that I don't want to justify. It's also inherently counterproductive to a lot of my positions because it limits the search for solutions to issues. See I'm of the opinion that the war on drugs is counterproductive and empowers gangs like these, that's an argument I've been known to make. I can't make it if they are animals cause you know, animals are going to animal, aren't they.

Those are some of the reasons why I would oppose this. Now I'd like to engage your ideas in favor of it.
No will to live, no wish to die
Taelshin
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada418 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-17 22:38:29
May 17 2018 22:36 GMT
#4180
Its a shame calling a horrific gang of monster's animals bothers you, but I really do not care about your feelers. Call them what you want, ill call them what I want.

Not interested in a war on drugs argument and I provided links which show why I am in favor of calling them animals, You telling me you "understand" gang violence does not make those points invalid or carry any less weight.

User was temp banned for this post.
"We didnt listen"
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