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On January 15 2020 12:20 Gorgonoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2020 12:11 Nebuchad wrote:On January 15 2020 12:06 Gorgonoth wrote:On January 15 2020 12:01 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
The phrasing on these healthcare questions are so negative on Sanders from the start wtf
'How would you keep your plans from bankrupting the country?' ??? I'll give it to you they put Bernie on the back foot. But It's not entirely unwarranted. His plan is ridiculously expensive relative to the field and he has transparency issues with how it's going to be paid for and at times seems out of touch with the consequences that spending 30 trillion on his plan will have. Rewatch his answer. The first thing he said was that the 30 trillion are also going to get spent under the current system: you can't logically argue that he's not being transparent without arguing that all the plans that intend to keep the system also lack transparency. You can attack the notion that it will cost less or the same, I don't know for a fact that it's true, but they aren't attacking the notion, they're just flat out saying that he isn't answering a question that he answered. This leads me to believe it btw, cause if it wasn't true that his plan would save money, they would absolutely be attacking him on that instead of lying about him not answering. What I mean by having transparency issues with it is him skirting around the fact that he will be increasing taxes heavily to pay for his plan. Biden and others have had to hammer that out of him in previous debates at least. This is to be expected, no one expects a candidate to put their least popular part of a plan forward first. Maybe I missed it, but I've heard Sanders admit many times that his plan costs more. I mean a it's hard to imagine a 30+ trillion dollar plan actually costing the same as Joe's Obamacare 2.0. Also, not sure if you watched the other debates but it's literally Joe's entire attack (that it costs too much) on Sanders every time, same from Pete, Klobuchar and others in the past.
It's been a while since I looked at it but my recollection is that it will cost you more in taxes but less in overall money? I'm also pretty sure I remember that the study that contained the 30 trillion estimate for Medicare for All also contained estimates in the 30 trillion for Obamacare on the same period.
It's been a while since I looked at it but I'm quite sure this is what I read.
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On January 15 2020 12:22 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2020 11:47 Nebuchad wrote:
- Bernie Sanders, why did you say the bad thing?
- I didn't.
- Elizabeth Warren, how did you feel when Bernie said the bad thing?
What the actual fuck...
Quoting you, but really for any Euro in the thread: Why do you have such a strong preference for Sanders over Warren? Like they both sound identical to me - like 80s social democrats. Some version of socialized education, some version of socialized medicine, taxation on wealth rather than just income, blah blah. I alternate between voting left and social democrats when I vote in Sweden (I live in the US), and I just can't bring myself to care about whatever people call the differences between them.
In my personal case it's because Sanders says he's a socialist and Warren says she's a "capitalist to the core". Sanders' platform also contains incentives for worker cooperatives, I take that as a clear sign, on top of his rhetoric, that he's serious about fighting that class war against the capitalists, which many social democrats are, well, not really.
Even if we take him at his word that he's just a mild social democrat, I still think he's a better candidate overall. Warren's reactions to trumpish attacks have been kind of cringe sometimes (so were the attacks, to be fair), and the movement that Bernie is building puts him in a much more advantageous position to actually implement some of what he's talking about (granted there's basically no way he'll be able to do everything).
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Watching now. Steyer good to say we need to specifically target minorities for assistance. Missed everything earlier, so gonna watch on YouTube later ..
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On January 15 2020 12:29 Mohdoo wrote:
Watching now. Steyer good to say we need to specifically target minorities for assistance. Missed everything earlier, so gonna watch on YouTube later ..
Its a good point but he went dangerously near "redistribution of wealth" when he didn't really need to. Plus what he said was werid because of how the federal level, for which hes debating for, doesn't fund K-12 schools as much as local property taxes do.
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I might be biased but this "decency check" line was really good.
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On January 15 2020 12:18 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2020 12:15 Mohdoo wrote:On January 15 2020 11:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Based on that bullshit debate skirmish between Warren and Sanders, I'm officially voting for Sanders over Warren now. That's some ridiculous moderator bias + Warren making a last ditch effort by misrepresenting statistics. I'm disappointed, Warren. I'd been going back and forth between the two for months now, and this tips the scales big time for me. Can you elaborate? Missed that Strongly suspect that Warren is playing off the relative unpopularity of Sanders amongst women voters and questionable narrative that he is a misogynist with that BS story. I don't know what DPB means but I just don't buy, I suspect it's a dishonest, strategic move by Warren and it makes me distrust her.
Sanders has been saying for a very long time that women are absolutely capable of being president, and that it's possible for a woman to become president. He even campaigned extremely hard for Hillary Clinton after losing to her in the primary last election. The moderator asked Sanders if he told Warren that a woman couldn't be president, and he said of course not (after citing all these facts, and mentioning the fact that Hillary literally won the popular vote so it's absurd to think that anyone - let alone he - would suggest that a woman couldn't become president).
Then the moderator ignored his response completely, didn't reword anything or ask Warren to respond to what Sanders said, and asked Warren how she felt when Sanders told her that a woman couldn't become president. And then Warren's response came across (to me, at least) as pretty disingenuous, especially when she started making assertions that needed more elaboration. For example, Warren made a blanket statement that women outperform men in elections, even though Biden and Sanders are literally outperforming her right now in terms of polling, state-level, and national support for president. She also cited other statistics that move goalposts around to make it sound like she and Klobuchar have been more successful politically than Biden and Sanders, and a few other things that came across as cheap shots and special pleading that aren't even relevant (except under the allegation that Sanders suggested that women can't handle these jobs).
Overall, it really rubbed me the wrong way, and it appeared to me that she broke the Sanders-Warren progressive pact in bad faith, as a last ditch effort to surge in the polls. She's been losing ground recently, and I think she could have handled this situation with a lot more tact. She could have made her pro-woman statements after, for example, giving Sanders (a good friend of hers) the benefit of the doubt, but instead she also kicked Sanders while trying to lift herself.
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Warren looked like a snake this debate. Hope she crashes and burns.
Klobuchar is incredibly uninspiring and looked like she was stumbling most of the night. This moderate pragmatism crap doesn't make anyone hopeful when it's what we've been dealing with for decades.
Steyer just does this creepy camera stare every time.
If Sanders were sharper/more eloquent, he would be the runaway favorite right now.
Buttigieg is smart and very well-spoken, but looks too much like the stiff, stereotypical politicians of past generations.
Biden looked like he was just hanging out the whole night, hoping to coast by.
I have to say that if Klobuchar or Biden are nominated and lose the general election, I'll definitely feel a good amount of Schadenfreude for these cowardly policies put forth by moderate Democrats.
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On January 15 2020 11:47 Nebuchad wrote:
- Bernie Sanders, why did you say the bad thing?
- I didn't.
- Elizabeth Warren, how did you feel when Bernie said the bad thing?
What the actual fuck...
Here's the cut of just the audience and Warren responding to CNN's question:
This is the best (the completeness captures the absurdity better than politico's imo) clip of the moment I've found so far.
*Updated clip*
+ Show Spoiler +
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On January 15 2020 12:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:
I have to say that if Klobuchar or Biden are nominated and lose the general election, I'll definitely feel a good amount of Schadenfreude for these cowardly policies put forth by moderate Democrats.
Klobuchar has 0% chance, so don't worry about her. Steyer is equally irrelevant. It's been between the Big Three (Biden, Sanders, Warren) for a very, very long time, with Buttigieg occasionally polling decently when it comes to almost-all-white states (demographically), but Warren has been dropping slightly, making it almost certain to ultimately come down to Biden vs. Sanders (and Biden has been outperforming Sanders in almost every national and state poll, although polling data isn't the only metric for gauging support).
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On January 15 2020 12:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:
If Sanders were sharper/more eloquent, he would be the runaway favorite right now.
I don't get this. How could he be more sharp or more eloquent?
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That Steyer ending statement...
'Sports creates a deep bond I treat americans as my teammates and I don't like teammates being kicked in the face'
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On January 15 2020 13:03 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2020 12:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:
If Sanders were sharper/more eloquent, he would be the runaway favorite right now.
I don't get this. How could he be more sharp or more eloquent?
He is slow to pick up on lines of defense to counter attacks in these debates and he is a broken record, saying the same exact lines with the same exact hand motions, even using a number of the same lines regardless of the actual topic.
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I think the brief moment caught on camera at the end of the broadcast where it looked like Elizabeth Warren went up to Bernie to talk and he was just like "get the hell away from me" says a lot
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On January 15 2020 13:13 TentativePanda wrote:
I think the brief moment caught on camera at the end of the broadcast where it looked like Elizabeth Warren went up to Bernie to talk and he was just like "get the hell away from me" says a lot
That's not what it looked like to me.
To me it looked like he was suggesting "dont worry about it" or "no hard feelings" after listening to what she had to say to him
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Warren denied Sanders a handshake...
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On January 15 2020 13:20 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Warren denied Sanders a handshake...
Here's the clip so people can have something to work with:
Steyers face is priceless, he's got an interview coming asking what he heard I imagine
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i honestly dont see anything antagonizing from either of them
Warren came up to Bernie wanting to talk about something. Bernie was just reflexively giving handshakes like he did to the other candidates but then saw Warren's intent and then forgot about the handshake to engage with Warren
After the exchange bernie's hand motions looked as if to suggest that whatever the matter is not really a big deal
Them not shaking hands is not a big deal. They are long time "friends" and probably dont care about formalities at this point.
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On January 15 2020 13:16 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2020 13:13 TentativePanda wrote:
I think the brief moment caught on camera at the end of the broadcast where it looked like Elizabeth Warren went up to Bernie to talk and he was just like "get the hell away from me" says a lot That's not what it looked like to me. To me it looked like he was suggesting "dont worry about it" or "no hard feelings" after listening to what she had to say to him
I was slightly off, but what you said seems completely off to me (without hearing the words of course)
To me it was clear Bernie was just giving the normal handshake and she refused and started talking about some issue, to which he decided it was better to just walk away from it. I think he was frustrated that she's playing a big part in framing him for something he either didn't do or something he did that is being greatly misconstrued.
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On January 15 2020 13:32 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2020 13:16 BerserkSword wrote:On January 15 2020 13:13 TentativePanda wrote:
I think the brief moment caught on camera at the end of the broadcast where it looked like Elizabeth Warren went up to Bernie to talk and he was just like "get the hell away from me" says a lot That's not what it looked like to me. To me it looked like he was suggesting "dont worry about it" or "no hard feelings" after listening to what she had to say to him I was slightly off, but what you said seems completely off to me (without hearing the words of course) To me it was clear Bernie was just giving the normal handshake and she refused and started talking about some issue, to which he decided it was better to just walk away from it. I think he was frustrated that she's playing a big part in framing him for something he either didn't do or something he did that is being greatly misconstrued.
Man maybe New Yorkers like me and Bernie really do have a different sense of manners lol. I didnt see anything unfriendly about what Bernie did. He didnt look phased or frustrated at all imo. Just your average "dont worry about it ill see ya later" kinda gesture.
I also dont think Warren rejected handshake. More like she was focused on something else.
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Also, the bias from CNN is absolutely nuts. Both focusing on the warren/bernie thing and then assuming warren is right is nuts.
And the thing that drives me crazy the most is when they say Bernie hurt Hillarys campaign. Like wtf she basically got a sabotage favor from the DNC and media to discredit Bernie, she was the destructive one
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EPT
