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On December 19 2019 16:13 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2019 15:55 Introvert wrote:On December 19 2019 15:41 Mohdoo wrote:On December 19 2019 14:55 Introvert wrote:
Word seems to be that they are going to try and get it done and over with quickly. No reason to bring in uncertainties, especially when the Democrats have screwed it up so badly. Polling is back firmly on Trump's side. Senate GOP, just like the House, seem more united than I would have thought, but the Dems behavior might have made that easier by giving some of these senators and reps an out.
The moderates who ended up voting for this kinda forced themselves into it, voting no would be terrible to the base and might even cost them a primary. Pelosi, who lets members run as they need to still keeps a relatively tight grip on members in when they are actually in the chamber. They couldn't afford having significantly fewer votes on the articles than they had in their quasi-opening of the inquiry. They figure they've already taken damage so they just have to ride it out and hope that no one remembers by the time November rolls around. They are going to approve the USMCA, which is something the *relative* moderates have been pestering Pelosi about for months, desperate for proof they are actually doing something up there. I don't know if it was planned, but the fact it will be approved by the House at a similar time to this impeachment is good news for them.
Pelosi has said they won't send the articles over right away, saying she wants assurance that the Senate trial will be a fair process. To that idea the Senate will respond by telling them to pound sand. Every possible explanation for this decision is bad, it flies in the face of the claims they have been making, and it makes the whole thing look more partisan but... apparently she thinks she has to do this? Last day or two this idea picked up steam among the left but its value is unclear at best. It seems like it's just another stunt to make some on her left flank happier. They are already in this mess, might as well roll with it. Not sure she'll hold out that long. Keep in mind this whole idea of impeachment being a mess isn't a universally held position. Even if polls are "negatively" impacted by this, it is still a good thing. It is important that abuse of power is punished. Whether that hurts polling or not is besides the point. Trump and republicans have been trying to push the idea that breaking this and that law is fine so long as the reasoning is sound. It is nonsense. Trump being impeached is a giant legal tarnish on his legacy, whether it feels good to admit right now or not. Even without removal, this is a big deal and a much needed reminder that law doesn't just go away when the country is divided. It is important to remember Trump won't always be the identity of your party. Trump can be tarnished and it is ok. Maybe a nitpick, but I'm not sure why you keep talking about laws being broken. He wasn't impeached over a law violation, the Democrats poll-tested "bribery" charge was abandoned. They settled on a vague "abuse of power" and "obstruction of Congress," as if Trump going to the courts and the Democrats refusing to go the courts, could be credibly accounted as obstruction. By the way if denying info to Congress is impeachable I have I got news for you about...well almost every single president, including the last one. So as far as I recall no law was alleged to have been broken. Trump hasn't defied a single court order, even the absurd ones. But this has been a mess. Democrats were in a better spot when this started then they are now after making their case. It's almost a disaster by definition. At best you should be upset your party is so incompetent that they manged to make a"slam-dunk" case into a push at best, hard loss at worst. I won't engage on if it's the "right thing to do" because that is clearly not the motivation of anyone involved. Their behavior proves that. if they felt so duty-bound they would have treated an only thrice-used provision of the Constitution with more seriousness. It's sad to me that you don't believe anyone believes it's the right thing to do. When it is bad for polls and is a divisive issue, why do it? Mitch was never going to remove him. You haven't convinced me this is a bad thing. It's ok for us to live in different worlds, but I wish you had more faith in the idea that people really do think they are doing/supporting the right thing.
I told you why I don't believe it: they don't act like they do. From day 1 they put Adam Schiff in charge. It was garbage before it began.
Edit: as for why do it, also mentioned that. They don't have a choice. The most engaged Democrat voters demand it. Impeach before Christmas and hope everyone forgets.
On December 19 2019 16:10 Womwomwom wrote:
Why would anyone be upset, this is like 1998 all over again. The American Government hasn't really operated in good faith for years and is merely continuing this. People want theatrics and I find it hard to believe that you're above this sort of trash.
Speaking about the Democrats, I'm not actually convinced a good majority of Democratic politicians (conservative/moderates really) are actually upset at Trump and/or the Republican government seeing they're getting pretty much exactly what they want and not really losing any real material wealth or social agency. This is just theatrics to their base that they're doing something without really doing anything.
Its not like anything is realistically going to change at a Federal level while we all eventually die from environmental causes like working outside in a 48 degree day. This sort of gridlock is perfect for a lot of politicians in power.
A good part of this is theater, I agree. As I posted yesterday, while this is going on they are passing a massive spending bill in the background with almost no debate or open discussion. House members would rather play TV pundit.
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5930 Posts
I don't know why you're specially hammering the House, the Senate is just as guilty if not more so especially under the helm of Mitch McConnell who is basically running a legislative graveyard.
The US Senate being a legislative graveyard, in the grand scheme of things, is not really a problem for someone like Chuck Schumer when he and McConnell ultimately want the same sort of things and have more things in common than some random tenement dwelling New Yorker who is freezing to death during Christmas.
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The House is worse, less useful, and has been the focus of this circus in the last few months. The Senate has mainly been sitting around confirming judges, something I actually support. Make no mistake though, both chambers suck. The Congressional approval rating is in the toilet for a reason.
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On December 19 2019 16:30 Introvert wrote:
The House is worse, less useful, and has been the focus of this circus in the last few months. The Senate has mainly been sitting around confirming judges, something I actually support. Make no mistake though, both chambers suck. The Congressional approval rating is in the toilet for a reason. funny how that same Senate refused to confirm judges when it was a different President.
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United States24578 Posts
On December 19 2019 15:55 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2019 15:41 Mohdoo wrote:On December 19 2019 14:55 Introvert wrote:
Word seems to be that they are going to try and get it done and over with quickly. No reason to bring in uncertainties, especially when the Democrats have screwed it up so badly. Polling is back firmly on Trump's side. Senate GOP, just like the House, seem more united than I would have thought, but the Dems behavior might have made that easier by giving some of these senators and reps an out.
The moderates who ended up voting for this kinda forced themselves into it, voting no would be terrible to the base and might even cost them a primary. Pelosi, who lets members run as they need to still keeps a relatively tight grip on members in when they are actually in the chamber. They couldn't afford having significantly fewer votes on the articles than they had in their quasi-opening of the inquiry. They figure they've already taken damage so they just have to ride it out and hope that no one remembers by the time November rolls around. They are going to approve the USMCA, which is something the *relative* moderates have been pestering Pelosi about for months, desperate for proof they are actually doing something up there. I don't know if it was planned, but the fact it will be approved by the House at a similar time to this impeachment is good news for them.
Pelosi has said they won't send the articles over right away, saying she wants assurance that the Senate trial will be a fair process. To that idea the Senate will respond by telling them to pound sand. Every possible explanation for this decision is bad, it flies in the face of the claims they have been making, and it makes the whole thing look more partisan but... apparently she thinks she has to do this? Last day or two this idea picked up steam among the left but its value is unclear at best. It seems like it's just another stunt to make some on her left flank happier. They are already in this mess, might as well roll with it. Not sure she'll hold out that long. Keep in mind this whole idea of impeachment being a mess isn't a universally held position. Even if polls are "negatively" impacted by this, it is still a good thing. It is important that abuse of power is punished. Whether that hurts polling or not is besides the point. Trump and republicans have been trying to push the idea that breaking this and that law is fine so long as the reasoning is sound. It is nonsense. Trump being impeached is a giant legal tarnish on his legacy, whether it feels good to admit right now or not. Even without removal, this is a big deal and a much needed reminder that law doesn't just go away when the country is divided. It is important to remember Trump won't always be the identity of your party. Trump can be tarnished and it is ok. Maybe a nitpick, but I'm not sure why you keep talking about laws being broken. He wasn't impeached over a law violation, the Democrats poll-tested "bribery" charge was abandoned. They settled on a vague "abuse of power" and "obstruction of Congress," as if Trump going to the courts and the Democrats refusing to go the courts, could be credibly accounted as obstruction. By the way if denying info to Congress is impeachable I have I got news for you about...well almost every single president, including the last one. So as far as I recall no law was alleged to have been broken. Trump hasn't defied a single court order, even the absurd ones.
Which other president, aside from the current one, directed the entire executive branch to provide zero documents and testimony in response to congressional subpoenas? I'm not sure if precedent really helps the white house here. Going to the courts because the white house and congress disagree about whether or not a specific request can be rejected due to executive privilege is one thing. If the senate allows the Trump administration to provide 0 in response to an impeachment inquiry in the house (even after a real vote finally occurred), then we can be reasonably sure that no president will comply with a congressional subpoena of the executive branch ever again.
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On December 19 2019 11:03 Introvert wrote:
And the House of Representatives continues to destroy itself, sliding slowly but surely into irrelevance. Sad to see, because one day it may actually have to do something important once again.
You mean, like preparing a shitton of laws that McConnell can just ignore forever, by himself ?
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People are so insanely obsessed with this impeachment trial. I myself didn't know it was going on at all until I was bombarded with news about it this morning, and I'll make sure to try to forget about it by tomorrow for nothing materially is going to change.
Does anyone else get angry at the /r/politics mindset about this? Here are some of the top comments from their megathread:
Unprecedented: Trump now holds the record for most votes ever acquired on an article of impeachment at 230. He's also No. 2 at 229.
No matter what happens in the Senate, Donald J. Trump will forever carry the mark of impeachment on his presidential record and in the history books.
Pelosi just hinted they'll never send the articles unless McConnell agrees to a fair trial process.
That means there's a possibility Trump is forever impeached, never acquitted.
Hard. Ball.
The thing that brings me more joy is the fact this will bother Trump to no end until the day he dies. Forever his name will be in the very small infamous list of impeached presidents.
It's peak liberal mindset to be obsessed with "owning" Trump in a meaningless impeachment vote over some obscure issue no one cares about. Instead, they should go to an ICE concentration camp and protest or whatever.
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Trump is a polarizing figure. Each camp is obsessed with "owning" the other.
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Its just like a really dumb reality TV show now.
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On December 19 2019 22:45 Grumbels wrote:People are so insanely obsessed with this impeachment trial. I myself didn't know it was going on at all until I was bombarded with news about it this morning, and I'll make sure to try to forget about it by tomorrow for nothing materially is going to change. Does anyone else get angry at the /r/politics mindset about this? Here are some of the top comments from their megathread: Show nested quote +Unprecedented: Trump now holds the record for most votes ever acquired on an article of impeachment at 230. He's also No. 2 at 229. Show nested quote +No matter what happens in the Senate, Donald J. Trump will forever carry the mark of impeachment on his presidential record and in the history books. Show nested quote +Pelosi just hinted they'll never send the articles unless McConnell agrees to a fair trial process.
That means there's a possibility Trump is forever impeached, never acquitted.
Hard. Ball. Show nested quote +The thing that brings me more joy is the fact this will bother Trump to no end until the day he dies. Forever his name will be in the very small infamous list of impeached presidents. It's peak liberal mindset to be obsessed with "owning" Trump in a meaningless impeachment vote over some obscure issue no one cares about. Instead, they should go to an ICE concentration camp and protest or whatever. I wouldn't say pressuring other countries into investigation your political opponents is an obscure issue.
But yes this means very little while Republicans will defend their President no matter what he does. But impeaching him was the only right move, even if you know it doesn't end with him being removed from office. Doing nothing is worse.
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On December 19 2019 22:45 Grumbels wrote:People are so insanely obsessed with this impeachment trial. I myself didn't know it was going on at all until I was bombarded with news about it this morning, and I'll make sure to try to forget about it by tomorrow for nothing materially is going to change. Does anyone else get angry at the /r/politics mindset about this? Here are some of the top comments from their megathread: Show nested quote +Unprecedented: Trump now holds the record for most votes ever acquired on an article of impeachment at 230. He's also No. 2 at 229. Show nested quote +No matter what happens in the Senate, Donald J. Trump will forever carry the mark of impeachment on his presidential record and in the history books. Show nested quote +Pelosi just hinted they'll never send the articles unless McConnell agrees to a fair trial process.
That means there's a possibility Trump is forever impeached, never acquitted.
Hard. Ball. Show nested quote +The thing that brings me more joy is the fact this will bother Trump to no end until the day he dies. Forever his name will be in the very small infamous list of impeached presidents. It's peak liberal mindset to be obsessed with "owning" Trump in a meaningless impeachment vote over some obscure issue no one cares about. Instead, they should go to an ICE concentration camp and protest or whatever.
They are going to fund them not shut them down.
Congress sent President Trump a $4.6 billion ... after Speaker Nancy Pelosi capitulated to Republicans and Democratic moderates and dropped her insistence on stronger protections for migrant children in overcrowded border shelters.
www.nytimes.com
It's going to get super awkward when Trump does something even more blatantly impeachable and everyone is looking around like "now what?"
Then neoliberals will be planning their tweets and parties for making Trump the first president impeached (and subsequently elected) 2x.
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What is more impeachable than refusing to provide assistance/proofs to the organism supposed to keep him in check ?
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On December 19 2019 23:28 Erasme wrote:
What is more impeachable than refusing to provide assistance/proofs to the organism supposed to keep him in check ?
They could have taken him to court and let that play out but they chose not to (he probably would have lost, which afterwards he would then be doing what you're saying in the most technical sense if he continued to refuse). More to your question the sky is the limit, well was, until Democrats funded his space force. Shoot someone on 5th ave?
Jokes aside, he could start arresting instead of ignoring/insulting them. He called it a coup, that's what (the nice thing anyway) you do with people who attempt a coup.
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If he doesn't get impeached for the reasons i previously mentionned, could it set a precedent for the next presidents or will it be treated as unique ?
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If Pelosi cared she would send the articles to the senate now.
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On December 20 2019 00:18 Erasme wrote:
If he doesn't get impeached for the reasons i previously mentionned, could it set a precedent for the next presidents or will it be treated as unique ? Impeachment is not a legal affair. Precendent isn't a thing.
Besides, Republicans love to complain when the Democrats do something they have been doing themselves for years. So no, getting acquitted in the Senats doesn't change anything.
What this does show is that a President that has a majority in either chamber and holds complete obedience from his party can do whatever the fuck he wants because no one can stop him. A slight design flaw in the system and one Republicans may try to exploit again in the future. Democrats are unlikely to since they voters appear to be less... fanatical in their devotion.
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On December 20 2019 00:18 Erasme wrote:
If he doesn't get impeached for the reasons i previously mentionned, could it set a precedent for the next presidents or will it be treated as unique ?
The "less bad than Trump" bar isn't going to go away when Trump does. How effective clearing it will be is another story.
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What a massive waste of everyone's time, this is pretty much dead on arrival once it gets to the senate. Left will scream at the right for blocking it, right will scream at the left for starting it. This does nothing but divide the country further, the next Democrat president better be ready for impeachment if the Republicans ever get the house majority. Hell, expect every president from now on to receive the "impeached by the house" stamp.
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On December 20 2019 01:02 TankWithBank wrote:
What a massive waste of everyone's time, this is pretty much dead on arrival once it gets to the senate. Left will scream at the right for blocking it, right will scream at the left for starting it. This does nothing but divide the country further, the next Democrat president better be ready for impeachment if the Republicans ever get the house majority. Hell, expect every president from now on to receive the "impeached by the house" stamp.
So starting impeachment when an objective viewer would agree that there is solid ground for that is bad? Getting it rejected in Senate is the deplorable thing. If a person abuses the office people should not decry removing them from that office, they should decry keeping them there.
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On December 20 2019 01:06 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2019 01:02 TankWithBank wrote:
What a massive waste of everyone's time, this is pretty much dead on arrival once it gets to the senate. Left will scream at the right for blocking it, right will scream at the left for starting it. This does nothing but divide the country further, the next Democrat president better be ready for impeachment if the Republicans ever get the house majority. Hell, expect every president from now on to receive the "impeached by the house" stamp. So starting impeachment when an objective viewer would agree that there is solid ground for that is bad? Getting it rejected in Senate is the deplorable thing. If a person abuses the office people should not decry removing them from that office, they should decry keeping them there.
Give me a fucking break, liberals spent the last 3 years pushing the Russian narrative. Everybody was sure Trump was a Russian puppet. What did we get out of that? that's right, nothing. There's nothing objective here, they wanted him gone from day one.
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