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Who said Trump was a Russian puppet? I mean he probably is, out of his own volition, and a North Korean puppet and a Chinese puppet and a Saudi puppet, but why are you so certain that a nebulous political position that may or may not exists said so?
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On December 20 2019 00:18 Erasme wrote:
If he doesn't get impeached for the reasons i previously mentionned, could it set a precedent for the next presidents or will it be treated as unique ?
I wouldn't be surprised if Mitch McConnell convinces the next Republican-controlled House to impeach the next Democratic president, even if it's literally for no reason other than to get revenge.
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On December 20 2019 01:28 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Who said Trump was a Russian puppet? I mean he probably is, out of his own volition, and a North Korean puppet and a Chinese puppet and a Saudi puppet, but why are you so certain that a nebulous political position that may or may not exists said so?
Spouting the bullshit narrative that the Russians rigged the election for Trump implies Trump is a Russian puppet no?
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Well a majority of people wanted him gone before he won the republican elections, so no surprise here
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One of Trump’s staunchest Congressional supporters, Mark Meadows, will not seek re-election.
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On December 19 2019 22:55 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2019 22:45 Grumbels wrote:People are so insanely obsessed with this impeachment trial. I myself didn't know it was going on at all until I was bombarded with news about it this morning, and I'll make sure to try to forget about it by tomorrow for nothing materially is going to change. Does anyone else get angry at the /r/politics mindset about this? Here are some of the top comments from their megathread: Unprecedented: Trump now holds the record for most votes ever acquired on an article of impeachment at 230. He's also No. 2 at 229. No matter what happens in the Senate, Donald J. Trump will forever carry the mark of impeachment on his presidential record and in the history books. Pelosi just hinted they'll never send the articles unless McConnell agrees to a fair trial process.
That means there's a possibility Trump is forever impeached, never acquitted.
Hard. Ball. The thing that brings me more joy is the fact this will bother Trump to no end until the day he dies. Forever his name will be in the very small infamous list of impeached presidents. It's peak liberal mindset to be obsessed with "owning" Trump in a meaningless impeachment vote over some obscure issue no one cares about. Instead, they should go to an ICE concentration camp and protest or whatever. I wouldn't say pressuring other countries into investigation your political opponents is an obscure issue. But yes this means very little while Republicans will defend their President no matter what he does. But impeaching him was the only right move, even if you know it doesn't end with him being removed from office. Doing nothing is worse.
I’m not opposed to impeachment, I’m happy there’s an impeachment, but it has to figure in a political strategy. The Dems elected to impeach Trump over some easily misunderstood issue figuring the corruption Hunter Biden of all people, probably partly because Ukraine seems like a proxy for Russian, which they had a pre-existing obsession with. So instead of nailing Trump for either his policy of, say, concentration camps or for his personal corruption, they focus on a partisan abuse of power by a Republican to hurt a Democrat. Which I doubt plays as well. I don’t think the Russia investigation played well either. You’re just never going to convince the left to care about a lack of patriotism of the right, I think only the reverse can happen, since patriotism is essentially a rightwing obsession and they will always manage to forgive their leaders anyway.
And I’m just personally annoyed when people online are like, hah, Donald Trump owned by having his name on a wikipedia page. Have they learned nothing about how politics work? It’s not just a game about one upping people, it’s about power and organizing and as long as the GOP holds the Senate then good luck getting anything done.
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On December 20 2019 01:31 TankWithBank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2019 01:28 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Who said Trump was a Russian puppet? I mean he probably is, out of his own volition, and a North Korean puppet and a Chinese puppet and a Saudi puppet, but why are you so certain that a nebulous political position that may or may not exists said so? Spouting the bullshit narrative that the Russians rigged the election for Trump implies Trump is a Russian puppet no?
No. It just means that they preferred Trump to Clinton. What makes him a russian puppet is the financial dealings that he had with Russia, which nobody wants to get into for some (liberal) reason.
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On December 19 2019 16:19 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2019 16:13 Mohdoo wrote:On December 19 2019 15:55 Introvert wrote:On December 19 2019 15:41 Mohdoo wrote:On December 19 2019 14:55 Introvert wrote:
Word seems to be that they are going to try and get it done and over with quickly. No reason to bring in uncertainties, especially when the Democrats have screwed it up so badly. Polling is back firmly on Trump's side. Senate GOP, just like the House, seem more united than I would have thought, but the Dems behavior might have made that easier by giving some of these senators and reps an out.
The moderates who ended up voting for this kinda forced themselves into it, voting no would be terrible to the base and might even cost them a primary. Pelosi, who lets members run as they need to still keeps a relatively tight grip on members in when they are actually in the chamber. They couldn't afford having significantly fewer votes on the articles than they had in their quasi-opening of the inquiry. They figure they've already taken damage so they just have to ride it out and hope that no one remembers by the time November rolls around. They are going to approve the USMCA, which is something the *relative* moderates have been pestering Pelosi about for months, desperate for proof they are actually doing something up there. I don't know if it was planned, but the fact it will be approved by the House at a similar time to this impeachment is good news for them.
Pelosi has said they won't send the articles over right away, saying she wants assurance that the Senate trial will be a fair process. To that idea the Senate will respond by telling them to pound sand. Every possible explanation for this decision is bad, it flies in the face of the claims they have been making, and it makes the whole thing look more partisan but... apparently she thinks she has to do this? Last day or two this idea picked up steam among the left but its value is unclear at best. It seems like it's just another stunt to make some on her left flank happier. They are already in this mess, might as well roll with it. Not sure she'll hold out that long. Keep in mind this whole idea of impeachment being a mess isn't a universally held position. Even if polls are "negatively" impacted by this, it is still a good thing. It is important that abuse of power is punished. Whether that hurts polling or not is besides the point. Trump and republicans have been trying to push the idea that breaking this and that law is fine so long as the reasoning is sound. It is nonsense. Trump being impeached is a giant legal tarnish on his legacy, whether it feels good to admit right now or not. Even without removal, this is a big deal and a much needed reminder that law doesn't just go away when the country is divided. It is important to remember Trump won't always be the identity of your party. Trump can be tarnished and it is ok. Maybe a nitpick, but I'm not sure why you keep talking about laws being broken. He wasn't impeached over a law violation, the Democrats poll-tested "bribery" charge was abandoned. They settled on a vague "abuse of power" and "obstruction of Congress," as if Trump going to the courts and the Democrats refusing to go the courts, could be credibly accounted as obstruction. By the way if denying info to Congress is impeachable I have I got news for you about...well almost every single president, including the last one. So as far as I recall no law was alleged to have been broken. Trump hasn't defied a single court order, even the absurd ones. But this has been a mess. Democrats were in a better spot when this started then they are now after making their case. It's almost a disaster by definition. At best you should be upset your party is so incompetent that they manged to make a"slam-dunk" case into a push at best, hard loss at worst. I won't engage on if it's the "right thing to do" because that is clearly not the motivation of anyone involved. Their behavior proves that. if they felt so duty-bound they would have treated an only thrice-used provision of the Constitution with more seriousness. It's sad to me that you don't believe anyone believes it's the right thing to do. When it is bad for polls and is a divisive issue, why do it? Mitch was never going to remove him. You haven't convinced me this is a bad thing. It's ok for us to live in different worlds, but I wish you had more faith in the idea that people really do think they are doing/supporting the right thing. I told you why I don't believe it: they don't act like they do. From day 1 they put Adam Schiff in charge. It was garbage before it began. Edit: as for why do it, also mentioned that. They don't have a choice. The most engaged Democrat voters demand it. Impeach before Christmas and hope everyone forgets.
So if it is voters making this happen, and I am telling you I am legitimately motivated by making sure people in power are held accountable, is it possible people have legitimate reasons for wanting him to be impeached? It feels like you can't even imagine a world where someone thinks Trump did things worth impeaching.
It really feels like you have convinced yourself no one supports impeachment for a legitimate reason. My reasons for wanting Trump impeached are the same reasons I support oversight of police and other positions of authority. Oversight didn't always exist. We had a lot of other forms of government and whatnot before we ended up in 2019. We learned a lot over the years, including the need for oversight. When we give people power, we trust them not to abuse it. As power increases, so too does the capability for someone to cause damage.
At the core of the matter: The more power someone has, the more important it is for oversight to move swiftly and effectively. Trump should be EXTRA accountable, not less accountable, due to being the president. And that is because a president has the greatest potential to cause damage from abuse of power. We can not give people in positions of power immunity from oversight. In the same way gun rights advocates view "any concession as a bad thing", I feel the same about power for positions of authority. They need to be extremely accountable, not immune.
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On December 20 2019 01:31 TankWithBank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2019 01:28 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Who said Trump was a Russian puppet? I mean he probably is, out of his own volition, and a North Korean puppet and a Chinese puppet and a Saudi puppet, but why are you so certain that a nebulous political position that may or may not exists said so? Spouting the bullshit narrative that the Russians rigged the election for Trump implies Trump is a Russian puppet no?
Not necessarily. Russia viewing him as someone who is going to weaken USA is enough. Russia is pushing for dissent. They are trying to push/pull all candidates, dirt and fake news, as long as the public opinion is divided. It definitely succeeded.
Now, is Trump a puppet ? He had ample occasions to disprove it. However, he did so much shady shit with covert meetings while destroying or hiding records, taking notes from the translator, or in the White House with Lavrov, that the question is legit.
Every occasion he has, his boundless love and admiration for "real men" (dictators) like Putin shows. It's hard to know if he is a willing puppet, or just a fool, easy to manipulate when you pull the right levers.
In any case, he is unfit to be president, as he is unable to defend his country's interests.
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On December 20 2019 01:45 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2019 22:55 Gorsameth wrote:On December 19 2019 22:45 Grumbels wrote:People are so insanely obsessed with this impeachment trial. I myself didn't know it was going on at all until I was bombarded with news about it this morning, and I'll make sure to try to forget about it by tomorrow for nothing materially is going to change. Does anyone else get angry at the /r/politics mindset about this? Here are some of the top comments from their megathread: Unprecedented: Trump now holds the record for most votes ever acquired on an article of impeachment at 230. He's also No. 2 at 229. No matter what happens in the Senate, Donald J. Trump will forever carry the mark of impeachment on his presidential record and in the history books. Pelosi just hinted they'll never send the articles unless McConnell agrees to a fair trial process.
That means there's a possibility Trump is forever impeached, never acquitted.
Hard. Ball. The thing that brings me more joy is the fact this will bother Trump to no end until the day he dies. Forever his name will be in the very small infamous list of impeached presidents. It's peak liberal mindset to be obsessed with "owning" Trump in a meaningless impeachment vote over some obscure issue no one cares about. Instead, they should go to an ICE concentration camp and protest or whatever. I wouldn't say pressuring other countries into investigation your political opponents is an obscure issue. But yes this means very little while Republicans will defend their President no matter what he does. But impeaching him was the only right move, even if you know it doesn't end with him being removed from office. Doing nothing is worse. I’m not opposed to impeachment, I’m happy there’s an impeachment, but it has to figure in a political strategy. The Dems elected to impeach Trump over some easily misunderstood issue figuring the corruption Hunter Biden of all people, probably partly because Ukraine seems like a proxy for Russian, which they had a pre-existing obsession with. So instead of nailing Trump for either his policy of, say, concentration camps or for his personal corruption, they focus on a partisan abuse of power by a Republican to hurt a Democrat. Which I doubt plays as well. I don’t think the Russia investigation played well either. You’re just never going to convince the left to care about a lack of patriotism of the right, I think only the reverse can happen, since patriotism is essentially a rightwing obsession and they will always manage to forgive their leaders anyway. And I’m just personally annoyed when people online are like, hah, Donald Trump owned by having his name on a wikipedia page. Have they learned nothing about how politics work? It’s not just a game about one upping people, it’s about power and organizing and as long as the GOP holds the Senate then good luck getting anything done. The pressure to investigate Hunter and withholding aid provided a solid case of clear abuse of power.
The ICE camps, while disgusting and repulsive is a lot hard to use as a basis for a legitimate impeachment proceeding, same with a lot of the personal enrichment.
Its like catching Capone on tax evasion, yeah he did a shitload of much worse things he should be locked up for, but this is the one we feel we can actually get him on.
Yes, owning Trump by putting his name on a wiki page accomplishes nothing. But thanks to how the US is set up no real victory can be won. So let people who are very upset about what is happening to the country celebrate the little victories they can get.
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On December 20 2019 01:31 TankWithBank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2019 01:28 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Who said Trump was a Russian puppet? I mean he probably is, out of his own volition, and a North Korean puppet and a Chinese puppet and a Saudi puppet, but why are you so certain that a nebulous political position that may or may not exists said so? Spouting the bullshit narrative that the Russians rigged the election for Trump implies Trump is a Russian puppet no?
No. And it's interfered not rigged. There's a difference. Interfered is a fact. Maybe you shouldn't spout bullshit narratives?
It doesn't matter anyways. Trump has abused his postion of president for to try to maniipulate a foreign country to investigate a relative of a political rival, and has shown contempt for democracy in general. The question should be is why don't you support Trumps impeachment? Upholding democracy is not high in your list of priorities?
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On December 20 2019 02:16 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2019 01:45 Grumbels wrote:On December 19 2019 22:55 Gorsameth wrote:On December 19 2019 22:45 Grumbels wrote:People are so insanely obsessed with this impeachment trial. I myself didn't know it was going on at all until I was bombarded with news about it this morning, and I'll make sure to try to forget about it by tomorrow for nothing materially is going to change. Does anyone else get angry at the /r/politics mindset about this? Here are some of the top comments from their megathread: Unprecedented: Trump now holds the record for most votes ever acquired on an article of impeachment at 230. He's also No. 2 at 229. No matter what happens in the Senate, Donald J. Trump will forever carry the mark of impeachment on his presidential record and in the history books. Pelosi just hinted they'll never send the articles unless McConnell agrees to a fair trial process.
That means there's a possibility Trump is forever impeached, never acquitted.
Hard. Ball. The thing that brings me more joy is the fact this will bother Trump to no end until the day he dies. Forever his name will be in the very small infamous list of impeached presidents. It's peak liberal mindset to be obsessed with "owning" Trump in a meaningless impeachment vote over some obscure issue no one cares about. Instead, they should go to an ICE concentration camp and protest or whatever. I wouldn't say pressuring other countries into investigation your political opponents is an obscure issue. But yes this means very little while Republicans will defend their President no matter what he does. But impeaching him was the only right move, even if you know it doesn't end with him being removed from office. Doing nothing is worse. I’m not opposed to impeachment, I’m happy there’s an impeachment, but it has to figure in a political strategy. The Dems elected to impeach Trump over some easily misunderstood issue figuring the corruption Hunter Biden of all people, probably partly because Ukraine seems like a proxy for Russian, which they had a pre-existing obsession with. So instead of nailing Trump for either his policy of, say, concentration camps or for his personal corruption, they focus on a partisan abuse of power by a Republican to hurt a Democrat. Which I doubt plays as well. I don’t think the Russia investigation played well either. You’re just never going to convince the left to care about a lack of patriotism of the right, I think only the reverse can happen, since patriotism is essentially a rightwing obsession and they will always manage to forgive their leaders anyway. And I’m just personally annoyed when people online are like, hah, Donald Trump owned by having his name on a wikipedia page. Have they learned nothing about how politics work? It’s not just a game about one upping people, it’s about power and organizing and as long as the GOP holds the Senate then good luck getting anything done. The pressure to investigate Hunter and withholding aid provided a solid case of clear abuse of power. The ICE camps, while disgusting and repulsive is a lot hard to use as a basis for a legitimate impeachment proceeding, same with a lot of the personal enrichment. Its like catching Capone on tax evasion, yeah he did a shitload of much worse things he should be locked up for, but this is the one we feel we can actually get him on. Yes, owning Trump by putting his name on a wiki page accomplishes nothing. But thanks to how the US is set up no real victory can be won. So let people who are very upset about what is happening to the country celebrate the little victories they can get.
How is putting kids in concentration camps harder to use as a basis of impeachment?
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On December 19 2019 22:45 Grumbels wrote:People are so insanely obsessed with this impeachment trial. I myself didn't know it was going on at all until I was bombarded with news about it this morning, and I'll make sure to try to forget about it by tomorrow for nothing materially is going to change. Does anyone else get angry at the /r/politics mindset about this? Here are some of the top comments from their megathread: Show nested quote +Unprecedented: Trump now holds the record for most votes ever acquired on an article of impeachment at 230. He's also No. 2 at 229. Show nested quote +No matter what happens in the Senate, Donald J. Trump will forever carry the mark of impeachment on his presidential record and in the history books. Show nested quote +Pelosi just hinted they'll never send the articles unless McConnell agrees to a fair trial process.
That means there's a possibility Trump is forever impeached, never acquitted.
Hard. Ball. Show nested quote +The thing that brings me more joy is the fact this will bother Trump to no end until the day he dies. Forever his name will be in the very small infamous list of impeached presidents. It's peak liberal mindset to be obsessed with "owning" Trump in a meaningless impeachment vote over some obscure issue no one cares about. Instead, they should go to an ICE concentration camp and protest or whatever.
In case you want a really quick and well written summary of why this was necessary, without the partisan circus :
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/judge-andrew-napolitano-shall-anyone-be-above-the-law
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On December 20 2019 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2019 02:16 Gorsameth wrote:On December 20 2019 01:45 Grumbels wrote:On December 19 2019 22:55 Gorsameth wrote:On December 19 2019 22:45 Grumbels wrote:People are so insanely obsessed with this impeachment trial. I myself didn't know it was going on at all until I was bombarded with news about it this morning, and I'll make sure to try to forget about it by tomorrow for nothing materially is going to change. Does anyone else get angry at the /r/politics mindset about this? Here are some of the top comments from their megathread: Unprecedented: Trump now holds the record for most votes ever acquired on an article of impeachment at 230. He's also No. 2 at 229. No matter what happens in the Senate, Donald J. Trump will forever carry the mark of impeachment on his presidential record and in the history books. Pelosi just hinted they'll never send the articles unless McConnell agrees to a fair trial process.
That means there's a possibility Trump is forever impeached, never acquitted.
Hard. Ball. The thing that brings me more joy is the fact this will bother Trump to no end until the day he dies. Forever his name will be in the very small infamous list of impeached presidents. It's peak liberal mindset to be obsessed with "owning" Trump in a meaningless impeachment vote over some obscure issue no one cares about. Instead, they should go to an ICE concentration camp and protest or whatever. I wouldn't say pressuring other countries into investigation your political opponents is an obscure issue. But yes this means very little while Republicans will defend their President no matter what he does. But impeaching him was the only right move, even if you know it doesn't end with him being removed from office. Doing nothing is worse. I’m not opposed to impeachment, I’m happy there’s an impeachment, but it has to figure in a political strategy. The Dems elected to impeach Trump over some easily misunderstood issue figuring the corruption Hunter Biden of all people, probably partly because Ukraine seems like a proxy for Russian, which they had a pre-existing obsession with. So instead of nailing Trump for either his policy of, say, concentration camps or for his personal corruption, they focus on a partisan abuse of power by a Republican to hurt a Democrat. Which I doubt plays as well. I don’t think the Russia investigation played well either. You’re just never going to convince the left to care about a lack of patriotism of the right, I think only the reverse can happen, since patriotism is essentially a rightwing obsession and they will always manage to forgive their leaders anyway. And I’m just personally annoyed when people online are like, hah, Donald Trump owned by having his name on a wikipedia page. Have they learned nothing about how politics work? It’s not just a game about one upping people, it’s about power and organizing and as long as the GOP holds the Senate then good luck getting anything done. The pressure to investigate Hunter and withholding aid provided a solid case of clear abuse of power. The ICE camps, while disgusting and repulsive is a lot hard to use as a basis for a legitimate impeachment proceeding, same with a lot of the personal enrichment. Its like catching Capone on tax evasion, yeah he did a shitload of much worse things he should be locked up for, but this is the one we feel we can actually get him on. Yes, owning Trump by putting his name on a wiki page accomplishes nothing. But thanks to how the US is set up no real victory can be won. So let people who are very upset about what is happening to the country celebrate the little victories they can get. How is putting kids in concentration camps harder to use as a basis of impeachment?
Because SCOTUS-made law gives the executive practically limitless authority in the context of immigration.
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On December 20 2019 02:47 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2019 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 20 2019 02:16 Gorsameth wrote:On December 20 2019 01:45 Grumbels wrote:On December 19 2019 22:55 Gorsameth wrote:On December 19 2019 22:45 Grumbels wrote:People are so insanely obsessed with this impeachment trial. I myself didn't know it was going on at all until I was bombarded with news about it this morning, and I'll make sure to try to forget about it by tomorrow for nothing materially is going to change. Does anyone else get angry at the /r/politics mindset about this? Here are some of the top comments from their megathread: Unprecedented: Trump now holds the record for most votes ever acquired on an article of impeachment at 230. He's also No. 2 at 229. No matter what happens in the Senate, Donald J. Trump will forever carry the mark of impeachment on his presidential record and in the history books. Pelosi just hinted they'll never send the articles unless McConnell agrees to a fair trial process.
That means there's a possibility Trump is forever impeached, never acquitted.
Hard. Ball. The thing that brings me more joy is the fact this will bother Trump to no end until the day he dies. Forever his name will be in the very small infamous list of impeached presidents. It's peak liberal mindset to be obsessed with "owning" Trump in a meaningless impeachment vote over some obscure issue no one cares about. Instead, they should go to an ICE concentration camp and protest or whatever. I wouldn't say pressuring other countries into investigation your political opponents is an obscure issue. But yes this means very little while Republicans will defend their President no matter what he does. But impeaching him was the only right move, even if you know it doesn't end with him being removed from office. Doing nothing is worse. I’m not opposed to impeachment, I’m happy there’s an impeachment, but it has to figure in a political strategy. The Dems elected to impeach Trump over some easily misunderstood issue figuring the corruption Hunter Biden of all people, probably partly because Ukraine seems like a proxy for Russian, which they had a pre-existing obsession with. So instead of nailing Trump for either his policy of, say, concentration camps or for his personal corruption, they focus on a partisan abuse of power by a Republican to hurt a Democrat. Which I doubt plays as well. I don’t think the Russia investigation played well either. You’re just never going to convince the left to care about a lack of patriotism of the right, I think only the reverse can happen, since patriotism is essentially a rightwing obsession and they will always manage to forgive their leaders anyway. And I’m just personally annoyed when people online are like, hah, Donald Trump owned by having his name on a wikipedia page. Have they learned nothing about how politics work? It’s not just a game about one upping people, it’s about power and organizing and as long as the GOP holds the Senate then good luck getting anything done. The pressure to investigate Hunter and withholding aid provided a solid case of clear abuse of power. The ICE camps, while disgusting and repulsive is a lot hard to use as a basis for a legitimate impeachment proceeding, same with a lot of the personal enrichment. Its like catching Capone on tax evasion, yeah he did a shitload of much worse things he should be locked up for, but this is the one we feel we can actually get him on. Yes, owning Trump by putting his name on a wiki page accomplishes nothing. But thanks to how the US is set up no real victory can be won. So let people who are very upset about what is happening to the country celebrate the little victories they can get. How is putting kids in concentration camps harder to use as a basis of impeachment? Because SCOTUS-made law gives the executive practically limitless authority in the context of immigration.
So? He doesn't have to be impeached for committing a crime and I don't think trying to prove he did made it any easier. If it did, than for whom and to what end?
EDIT: Seems Pelosi's plan is just to never send the articles of impeachment to the senate lol.
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On December 20 2019 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2019 02:16 Gorsameth wrote:On December 20 2019 01:45 Grumbels wrote:On December 19 2019 22:55 Gorsameth wrote:On December 19 2019 22:45 Grumbels wrote:People are so insanely obsessed with this impeachment trial. I myself didn't know it was going on at all until I was bombarded with news about it this morning, and I'll make sure to try to forget about it by tomorrow for nothing materially is going to change. Does anyone else get angry at the /r/politics mindset about this? Here are some of the top comments from their megathread: Unprecedented: Trump now holds the record for most votes ever acquired on an article of impeachment at 230. He's also No. 2 at 229. No matter what happens in the Senate, Donald J. Trump will forever carry the mark of impeachment on his presidential record and in the history books. Pelosi just hinted they'll never send the articles unless McConnell agrees to a fair trial process.
That means there's a possibility Trump is forever impeached, never acquitted.
Hard. Ball. The thing that brings me more joy is the fact this will bother Trump to no end until the day he dies. Forever his name will be in the very small infamous list of impeached presidents. It's peak liberal mindset to be obsessed with "owning" Trump in a meaningless impeachment vote over some obscure issue no one cares about. Instead, they should go to an ICE concentration camp and protest or whatever. I wouldn't say pressuring other countries into investigation your political opponents is an obscure issue. But yes this means very little while Republicans will defend their President no matter what he does. But impeaching him was the only right move, even if you know it doesn't end with him being removed from office. Doing nothing is worse. I’m not opposed to impeachment, I’m happy there’s an impeachment, but it has to figure in a political strategy. The Dems elected to impeach Trump over some easily misunderstood issue figuring the corruption Hunter Biden of all people, probably partly because Ukraine seems like a proxy for Russian, which they had a pre-existing obsession with. So instead of nailing Trump for either his policy of, say, concentration camps or for his personal corruption, they focus on a partisan abuse of power by a Republican to hurt a Democrat. Which I doubt plays as well. I don’t think the Russia investigation played well either. You’re just never going to convince the left to care about a lack of patriotism of the right, I think only the reverse can happen, since patriotism is essentially a rightwing obsession and they will always manage to forgive their leaders anyway. And I’m just personally annoyed when people online are like, hah, Donald Trump owned by having his name on a wikipedia page. Have they learned nothing about how politics work? It’s not just a game about one upping people, it’s about power and organizing and as long as the GOP holds the Senate then good luck getting anything done. The pressure to investigate Hunter and withholding aid provided a solid case of clear abuse of power. The ICE camps, while disgusting and repulsive is a lot hard to use as a basis for a legitimate impeachment proceeding, same with a lot of the personal enrichment. Its like catching Capone on tax evasion, yeah he did a shitload of much worse things he should be locked up for, but this is the one we feel we can actually get him on. Yes, owning Trump by putting his name on a wiki page accomplishes nothing. But thanks to how the US is set up no real victory can be won. So let people who are very upset about what is happening to the country celebrate the little victories they can get. How is putting kids in concentration camps harder to use as a basis of impeachment?
As long as he is upholding the law, even if the law is bullshit, there is no basis for impeachment. Why are they stacking the courts, do you think ?
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Northern Ireland24460 Posts
On December 20 2019 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2019 02:16 Gorsameth wrote:On December 20 2019 01:45 Grumbels wrote:On December 19 2019 22:55 Gorsameth wrote:On December 19 2019 22:45 Grumbels wrote:People are so insanely obsessed with this impeachment trial. I myself didn't know it was going on at all until I was bombarded with news about it this morning, and I'll make sure to try to forget about it by tomorrow for nothing materially is going to change. Does anyone else get angry at the /r/politics mindset about this? Here are some of the top comments from their megathread: Unprecedented: Trump now holds the record for most votes ever acquired on an article of impeachment at 230. He's also No. 2 at 229. No matter what happens in the Senate, Donald J. Trump will forever carry the mark of impeachment on his presidential record and in the history books. Pelosi just hinted they'll never send the articles unless McConnell agrees to a fair trial process.
That means there's a possibility Trump is forever impeached, never acquitted.
Hard. Ball. The thing that brings me more joy is the fact this will bother Trump to no end until the day he dies. Forever his name will be in the very small infamous list of impeached presidents. It's peak liberal mindset to be obsessed with "owning" Trump in a meaningless impeachment vote over some obscure issue no one cares about. Instead, they should go to an ICE concentration camp and protest or whatever. I wouldn't say pressuring other countries into investigation your political opponents is an obscure issue. But yes this means very little while Republicans will defend their President no matter what he does. But impeaching him was the only right move, even if you know it doesn't end with him being removed from office. Doing nothing is worse. I’m not opposed to impeachment, I’m happy there’s an impeachment, but it has to figure in a political strategy. The Dems elected to impeach Trump over some easily misunderstood issue figuring the corruption Hunter Biden of all people, probably partly because Ukraine seems like a proxy for Russian, which they had a pre-existing obsession with. So instead of nailing Trump for either his policy of, say, concentration camps or for his personal corruption, they focus on a partisan abuse of power by a Republican to hurt a Democrat. Which I doubt plays as well. I don’t think the Russia investigation played well either. You’re just never going to convince the left to care about a lack of patriotism of the right, I think only the reverse can happen, since patriotism is essentially a rightwing obsession and they will always manage to forgive their leaders anyway. And I’m just personally annoyed when people online are like, hah, Donald Trump owned by having his name on a wikipedia page. Have they learned nothing about how politics work? It’s not just a game about one upping people, it’s about power and organizing and as long as the GOP holds the Senate then good luck getting anything done. The pressure to investigate Hunter and withholding aid provided a solid case of clear abuse of power. The ICE camps, while disgusting and repulsive is a lot hard to use as a basis for a legitimate impeachment proceeding, same with a lot of the personal enrichment. Its like catching Capone on tax evasion, yeah he did a shitload of much worse things he should be locked up for, but this is the one we feel we can actually get him on. Yes, owning Trump by putting his name on a wiki page accomplishes nothing. But thanks to how the US is set up no real victory can be won. So let people who are very upset about what is happening to the country celebrate the little victories they can get. How is putting kids in concentration camps harder to use as a basis of impeachment?
I mean it should be to my particular moral sensibilities, I’m pretty sure we both know how it plays out if if that road was travelled down.
It’s different from a swathe of the country knowing Trump is corrupt but not really caring, it’s a punitive policy that some people actively support.
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On December 20 2019 02:57 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2019 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 20 2019 02:16 Gorsameth wrote:On December 20 2019 01:45 Grumbels wrote:On December 19 2019 22:55 Gorsameth wrote:On December 19 2019 22:45 Grumbels wrote:People are so insanely obsessed with this impeachment trial. I myself didn't know it was going on at all until I was bombarded with news about it this morning, and I'll make sure to try to forget about it by tomorrow for nothing materially is going to change. Does anyone else get angry at the /r/politics mindset about this? Here are some of the top comments from their megathread: Unprecedented: Trump now holds the record for most votes ever acquired on an article of impeachment at 230. He's also No. 2 at 229. No matter what happens in the Senate, Donald J. Trump will forever carry the mark of impeachment on his presidential record and in the history books. Pelosi just hinted they'll never send the articles unless McConnell agrees to a fair trial process.
That means there's a possibility Trump is forever impeached, never acquitted.
Hard. Ball. The thing that brings me more joy is the fact this will bother Trump to no end until the day he dies. Forever his name will be in the very small infamous list of impeached presidents. It's peak liberal mindset to be obsessed with "owning" Trump in a meaningless impeachment vote over some obscure issue no one cares about. Instead, they should go to an ICE concentration camp and protest or whatever. I wouldn't say pressuring other countries into investigation your political opponents is an obscure issue. But yes this means very little while Republicans will defend their President no matter what he does. But impeaching him was the only right move, even if you know it doesn't end with him being removed from office. Doing nothing is worse. I’m not opposed to impeachment, I’m happy there’s an impeachment, but it has to figure in a political strategy. The Dems elected to impeach Trump over some easily misunderstood issue figuring the corruption Hunter Biden of all people, probably partly because Ukraine seems like a proxy for Russian, which they had a pre-existing obsession with. So instead of nailing Trump for either his policy of, say, concentration camps or for his personal corruption, they focus on a partisan abuse of power by a Republican to hurt a Democrat. Which I doubt plays as well. I don’t think the Russia investigation played well either. You’re just never going to convince the left to care about a lack of patriotism of the right, I think only the reverse can happen, since patriotism is essentially a rightwing obsession and they will always manage to forgive their leaders anyway. And I’m just personally annoyed when people online are like, hah, Donald Trump owned by having his name on a wikipedia page. Have they learned nothing about how politics work? It’s not just a game about one upping people, it’s about power and organizing and as long as the GOP holds the Senate then good luck getting anything done. The pressure to investigate Hunter and withholding aid provided a solid case of clear abuse of power. The ICE camps, while disgusting and repulsive is a lot hard to use as a basis for a legitimate impeachment proceeding, same with a lot of the personal enrichment. Its like catching Capone on tax evasion, yeah he did a shitload of much worse things he should be locked up for, but this is the one we feel we can actually get him on. Yes, owning Trump by putting his name on a wiki page accomplishes nothing. But thanks to how the US is set up no real victory can be won. So let people who are very upset about what is happening to the country celebrate the little victories they can get. How is putting kids in concentration camps harder to use as a basis of impeachment? As long as he is upholding the law, even if the law is bullshit, there is no basis for impeachment. Why are they stacking the courts, do you think ?
This is just factually wrong. There is no requirement he be breaking the law as a basis for impeachment. That was just a disadvantage Democrats imposed on themselves.
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It doesn’t have to be a requirement in order for it to play an important role in the impeachment process. But yes, it is also a problem that far too many people are ok with the way the federal government conducts immigration, and yes, that goes beyond Trump.
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On December 20 2019 03:02 farvacola wrote:
It doesn’t have to be a requirement in order for it to play an important role in the impeachment process. But yes, it is also a problem that far too many people are ok with the way the federal government conducts immigration, and yes, that goes beyond Trump.
If your point is that Democrats couldn't be convinced putting kids in concentration camps or the many other horrific things Trump's done was worse than this Ukraine thing, I'd agree.
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EPT
