EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 162
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On May 03 2018 02:42 Plansix wrote: All I really wanted out of that case was for someone to explain the thought process for bringing 6 officers to deal with a call about two black men refusing to leave a mall Starbucks. I wanted to hear the terrible justifications that crumbled under the smallest amount of pressure. I wouldn't know their thought process; do you want someone to devil's advocate such a case? I could come up with something if you wanted. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 03 2018 03:08 zlefin wrote: I wouldn't know their thought process; do you want someone to devil's advocate such a case? I could come up with something if you wanted. Not at all. It was a base desire for some schadenfreude to watch the police department try to justify a bad call. | ||
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farvacola
United States18832 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 03 2018 02:42 Plansix wrote: All I really wanted out of that case was for someone to explain the thought process for bringing 6 officers to deal with a call about two black men refusing to leave a mall Starbucks. I wanted to hear the terrible justifications that crumbled under the smallest amount of pressure. depending on the area of the U.S., police officers often go places in groups. my wife hurt herself really bad in the middle of the night, and I called 911 for an ambulance. before the EMTs would come in, 2 police officers showed up(I have no idea why). And then another 2 showed up. It was my home, I was the one that called, and the phone call had nothing to do with violence or altercation or anything illegal. So no, it's not really justified. But it may not have been motivated by any specific thing. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On May 03 2018 03:45 farvacola wrote: Ty Cobb is out as Trump's defense lawyer and is being replaced by Emmet Flood, one of Clinton's impeachment lawyers. Hmm, wonder what that signals? Wasn't Cobb the reasonable one (as far as Trump lawyers go)? I can see this as part of his strategy to get more aggressive/more combative. Though Flood did have Clinton answer questions from Starr, so maybe Trump ends up doing the same. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On May 03 2018 03:45 farvacola wrote: Ty Cobb is out as Trump's defense lawyer and is being replaced by Emmet Flood, one of Clinton's impeachment lawyers. Hmm, wonder what that signals? Probably that he didn't sign off on leaking Mueller's list of questions - I speculate that's the straw that broke the camel's back for Cobb. Flood is legit though. But I wonder what made him take the job after refusing it the first couple times. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On May 03 2018 04:11 ticklishmusic wrote: Probably that he didn't sign off on leaking Mueller's list of questions - I speculate that's the straw that broke the camel's back for Cobb. Flood is legit though. But I wonder what made him take the job after refusing it the first couple times. Yeah Cobb even said in an interview with ABC News that he has "no doubt" it wasn't Mueller's team that leaked. If you see the grammatical errors in the questions, it's a pretty big tell which group was involved. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 03 2018 04:11 ticklishmusic wrote: Probably that he didn't sign off on leaking Mueller's list of questions - I speculate that's the straw that broke the camel's back for Cobb. Flood is legit though. But I wonder what made him take the job after refusing it the first couple times. I’m going to side with civil duty, because there is no assurance he is going to get paid. And I bet he is willing to walk at the drop of hat too. I dislike Trump a lot, but the President should have a legal team that can professionally handle whatever comes out of this investigation. What this investigation will likely lead too should be addressed with the gravity it warrants. And so far, Trump has been treating it like a celebrity dispute or reality show. That cannot continue if we really get into the impeachment process. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23295 Posts
On May 03 2018 03:52 travis wrote: depending on the area of the U.S., police officers often go places in groups. my wife hurt herself really bad in the middle of the night, and I called 911 for an ambulance. before the EMTs would come in, 2 police officers showed up(I have no idea why). And then another 2 showed up. It was my home, I was the one that called, and the phone call had nothing to do with violence or altercation or anything illegal. So no, it's not really justified. But it may not have been motivated by any specific thing. I feel like a man calling 911 for a badly injured wife in the middle of the night has been a murder scene more than once. So I actually kinda get that one. The police don't deserve the benefit of the doubt though. Just look at what happened to Desmond Morrow. or countless others. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On May 03 2018 04:45 JimmiC wrote: I think people often forget how dangerous being police in the USA is. How do you know know if they are reaching for their cell phone or a gun? Clearly there are some bad people who are cops, but a lot of good cops are put in terrible situations where one choice they looks like a racist prick and the other choice they might get shot. http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html some people forget that; but most people here haven't (so i'm not sure who you're addressing, it seems like you're arguing against people who aren't here); the people here have accounted for those numbers already. and they do not justify the police's overuse of force at all. do you need more info on the counterpoints, or are you already aware of them? it's also not that dangerous being a cop in the US. sure it's more dangerous than some occupations; but it's not amongst the most dangerous. plenty of more or equally dangerous occupations that get far less respect. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Also, nationally police are reluctant to provide data on how often they use lethal or non-lethal force. As a nation we do not collect that data. I would not be surprised if we have more information about the performance of fire departments at a national level. Police department and police unions don’t want to report what they are doing to anyone, including the state and local governments they serve. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11554 Posts
https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0006.pdf (Page 16) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_fatality http://time.com/5074471/most-dangerous-jobs/ Police is, depending on which statistics you look at, at most at place 10 of the top 10 with regards to workplace fatality rates. Lots of jobs are way more dangerous, including roofers, loggers, fishers, farmers and drivers. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 03 2018 05:12 JimmiC wrote: Edit: Not well enough thought out to have a great response. Was not trying to argue, just point out that it is not always simple. I don’t disagree. I am someone who was “pro-police” about years ago. I had a lot of faith in the judicial system to deal with unlawful uses of lethal force. I followed a lot of the cases of unarmed shootings by police over the last 5 or so year. Needless to say, my faith in the system, police training and police themselves has been completely eroded. I consider the current trajectory of law enforcement on a national level to be a real threat to civil liberates and faith in our governmental systems. Police departments need to get with the times and realize smart phone cameras are not going away. Pandora’s box is open. As smart guy named Austin Walker once said “Its(police) always been like this for black folk, we just have video now.” Public faith will continue to erode unless police realize that reform is their only salvation. Another 10 years of unarmed shootings with zero convictions is going to lead to of angry people who will decide that the best response to unchecked unarmed shootings and police abuse is to burn down the police station. I do support strong oversight of police departments at a federal level. I think there should be an entire agency in the government staffed civil servants familiar with workings of police departments who are committed to reform and oversight. We should look to the EU to see how they keep oversee their own law enforcement departments, which are more cleanly divided by role. I am not interested in a debate about cost however, considering the cost of pay outs to families to prevent lawsuits due to unlawful shootings. They are shocking if t you dig into it. Edit: I felt your post was fine. It is totally file to be unsure about things and to talk about them to work out your thoughts. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23295 Posts
On May 03 2018 05:52 JimmiC wrote: I think the difference is one is death by accident and one is murder, which is far more shocking. It's much safer to be a cop in a dangerous neighborhood than it is to be a resident. They get murdered far more frequently and are much less likely for their killers to be caught and held accountable. They generally don't get a parade and a public memorial either. Lastly they didn't sign up to do it, they are just supposed to be in this country with the whole life liberty and pursuit. Instead, not only do they face the same or greater likelihood to be killed in a dangerous place, they also face systematic abuse by the cops that are so concerned for their own safety they shoot innocent unarmed citizens and get away with it. Cops should be better compensated (to the extent they 'need' to exist), but they should also be dying/getting injured more as a result of erring on the side of not killing innocent people and maybe taking some knives to the vest/body or even getting shot and killed. That is if they continue to refuse to take/follow the training that would help keep them safe. | ||
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Introvert
United States4825 Posts
Not quoting because lazy on mobile. https://nytimes.com/2018/05/02/us/politics/emmet-flood-ty-cobb-white-house-lawyer-special-counsel.html | ||
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