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That would actually be the most amazing plot twist to this reality tv show, if trump turns out to be the leaker all along.
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On May 02 2018 05:04 hunts wrote:That would actually be the most amazing plot twist to this reality tv show, if trump turns out to be the leaker all along.
It would actually make a lot of sense. The easiest way to take the sting out of the final outcome is to leak it piece by piece the whole time. It's like if you were watching a movie and they just made the end unavoidably obvious the whole movie.
Not in the Shakespearean way either, more in the accidentally told the punchline before the joke way.
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Can someone go back to find the story where Trump impersonated his agent, that Trump apparently made up? Because I remember that story and it makes all of this so much more believable.
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I can't help but wonder...
If Mueller finishes and in no way recommends that Trump be prosecuted, or like Comey basically says "no lawyer would take this case and win", for liberals, does that mean Trump shouldn't be prosecuted, Mueller and the justice system failed, or something else?
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On May 02 2018 05:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
I can't help but wonder...
If Mueller finishes and in no way recommends that Trump be prosecuted, or like Comey basically says "no lawyer would take this case and win", for liberals, does that mean Trump shouldn't be prosecuted, Mueller and the justice system failed, or something else?
I'm a firm believer in tit for tat, so I would say that mueller was in trumps pocket all along, call for a new special council to reinvestigate trump, and then potentially start chanting "lock him up" while taking russian money to run a parade where someone impersonates trump in a cage.
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On May 02 2018 05:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
I can't help but wonder...
If Mueller finishes and in no way recommends that Trump be prosecuted, or like Comey basically says "no lawyer would take this case and win", for liberals, does that mean Trump shouldn't be prosecuted, Mueller and the justice system failed, or something else?
I trust Muller, if he comes out and says that Trump is in the clear. Or like Comey for H, that he did some fucked up shit but nobody could get a conviction.... I would let that settle it. I would still think trump is a shit president for what he has done but I would not consider these criminal matters important anymore
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On May 02 2018 05:49 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 05:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
I can't help but wonder...
If Mueller finishes and in no way recommends that Trump be prosecuted, or like Comey basically says "no lawyer would take this case and win", for liberals, does that mean Trump shouldn't be prosecuted, Mueller and the justice system failed, or something else? I'm a firm believer in tit for tat, so I would say that mueller was in trumps pocket all along, call for a new special council to reinvestigate trump, and then potentially start chanting "lock him up" while taking russian money to run a parade where someone impersonates trump in a cage.
That seems like a such a bad idea I'm not sure if you're joking or not.
On May 02 2018 05:49 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 05:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
I can't help but wonder...
If Mueller finishes and in no way recommends that Trump be prosecuted, or like Comey basically says "no lawyer would take this case and win", for liberals, does that mean Trump shouldn't be prosecuted, Mueller and the justice system failed, or something else? I trust Muller, if he comes out and says that Trump is in the clear. Or like Comey for H, that he did some fucked up shit but nobody could get a conviction.... I would let that settle it. I would still think trump is a shit president for what he has done but I would not consider these criminal matters important anymore
Wonder how common that sentiment is among Democrats here, and Democrats in general?
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On May 02 2018 05:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
I can't help but wonder...
If Mueller finishes and in no way recommends that Trump be prosecuted, or like Comey basically says "no lawyer would take this case and win", for liberals, does that mean Trump shouldn't be prosecuted, Mueller and the justice system failed, or something else?
It wouldn't surprise me if he did just barely scratch by without doing something technically technically teccchhhniccaalllly illegal. I do expect it will have some amount of "we can't prove Trump knew ____", but in that case, I expect Trump Jr or Kushner to go down.
I think your question is kind of silly though because there are a million things that could happen. "Trump not being prosecuted" is itself a very broad thing. The nuance is what matters and will depend a lot on what we are provided with and ...millions of other things. I don't think there is value in speculating at this point.
At the core, I trust Mueller a lot. I could imagine situations where I am satisfied with no charges and also situations where I am not satisfied with no charges. Dunno.
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On May 02 2018 05:53 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 05:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
I can't help but wonder...
If Mueller finishes and in no way recommends that Trump be prosecuted, or like Comey basically says "no lawyer would take this case and win", for liberals, does that mean Trump shouldn't be prosecuted, Mueller and the justice system failed, or something else? It wouldn't surprise me if he did just barely scratch by without doing something technically technically teccchhhniccaalllly illegal. I do expect it will have some amount of "we can't prove Trump knew ____", but in that case, I expect Trump Jr or Kushner to go down. I think your question is kind of silly though because there are a million things that could happen. "Trump not being prosecuted" is itself a very broad thing. The nuance is what matters and will depend a lot on what we are provided with and ...millions of other things. I don't think there is value in speculating at this point.
Outside of prosecution and impeachment (which I've always thought were pipe dreams) what then are some of the "millions of other things" that would not make this mostly a colossal waste of time and attention?
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On May 02 2018 05:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
I can't help but wonder...
If Mueller finishes and in no way recommends that Trump be prosecuted, or like Comey basically says "no lawyer would take this case and win", for liberals, does that mean Trump shouldn't be prosecuted, Mueller and the justice system failed, or something else?
I think in this case the investigation lead to other charges being brought, so would limit the outcry from liberals for not recommending charges against Trump. I also think outside the liberal hot take factor, there is a general acceptance that this is a serious process. A sort of “we only get one shot a the king, so we best not miss”.
But I don’t think there is any way where this doesn’t end with Trump being impeached after the investigation becomes public. I don’t believe the public will accept inaction by congress. I’m not convinced it will end with removal from office. If Bill Clinton lying under oath is enough to get him censured, the firing of Comey and general behavior towards investigation deserves a censure at least.
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I don't think it's a waste of my time or attention to watch this investigation, and the events surrounding it, reveal just how fragile our republic actually is. It's been, and continues to be, a wake up call.
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On May 02 2018 06:02 Seuss wrote:
I don't think it's a waste of my time or attention to watch this investigation, and the events surrounding it, reveal just how fragile our republic actually is. It's been, and continues to be, a wake up call.
I suppose it depends on what one is observing. If they are thinking that end of this investigation will be 'just' I'd say it was a waste. If it's showing them how much of a sham this whole system is, indeed, invaluable.
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On May 02 2018 05:55 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 05:53 Mohdoo wrote:On May 02 2018 05:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
I can't help but wonder...
If Mueller finishes and in no way recommends that Trump be prosecuted, or like Comey basically says "no lawyer would take this case and win", for liberals, does that mean Trump shouldn't be prosecuted, Mueller and the justice system failed, or something else? It wouldn't surprise me if he did just barely scratch by without doing something technically technically teccchhhniccaalllly illegal. I do expect it will have some amount of "we can't prove Trump knew ____", but in that case, I expect Trump Jr or Kushner to go down. I think your question is kind of silly though because there are a million things that could happen. "Trump not being prosecuted" is itself a very broad thing. The nuance is what matters and will depend a lot on what we are provided with and ...millions of other things. I don't think there is value in speculating at this point. Outside of prosecution and impeachment (which I've always thought were pipe dreams) what then are some of the "millions of other things" that would not make this mostly a colossal waste of time and attention?
Trump Jr taken down, Kushner taken down, more evidence Russia made a concentrated attempt to fuck with us. More evidence Wikileaks is just a branch of Russian intelligence at this point. There are all sorts of outcomes that would justify the investigation. NRA money exposed. Changes to how campaign funding works after "the trump campaign unknowingly taking money from Russia". There's bazillions of outcomes.
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This isn’t that much worse than the Nixon administration. The main thing about Nixon was that he backed down in the end. But there was real fear that he wouldn’t or he would challenge the validity of his removal in the court of public opinion. I think that is the scariest part of what we could face in the future. But that is a long way off.
And people should view the divisions in this country as bad, but not worse than other times modern history. NPR did a story on that recently.
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/01/607303543/has-the-partisan-divide-ever-been-this-bad-author-jon-meacham-says-yes
MEACHAM: I'm not dismissing the fears or concerns of those who are fearful. My point is, if you look at what Franklin Roosevelt did in the 1930s - when Franklin Roosevelt took the oath of office, he was sitting in the White House. And a friend came in and said, Mr. President, if you succeed in solving the crisis of the Great Depression, you will go down as our greatest president. But if you fail, sir, you will go down as our worst. FDR looked at him and said, if I fail, I'll be the last. It was that serious. How did Franklin Roosevelt lead the country through the 1930s? He did it with an insistent view that hope was more important than fear.
I'm not arguing for a big "Kumbaya" singing. I'm just saying that if you look at these moments - if you look at Reconstruction, if you look at McCarthyism - by the way, Joe McCarthy and Donald Trump shared the same lawyer, Roy Cohn. So you don't have to make much of a leap here.
INSKEEP: True story.
MEACHAM: It's all there. And then, obviously, the story of civil rights and the way Lyndon Johnson, a white Southerner from a segregated state, decided he was going to create voting rights in this country and finish the work of Abraham Lincoln. When George Wallace, the governor of Alabama, who was an early right-wing populist - when he was stopping the march in Selma with Dr. King and John Lewis and others, Johnson forces him to come up to the White House. And he says, quite brilliantly - when you're gone, George, do you want your tombstone to say, George Wallace: he hated or George Wallace: he built?
I think that's a question that all of us have to ask ourselves when we get up every morning right now.
I think people forget that the public felt our country was on the brink during the Great Depression. That American democracy might end.
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I too trust Mueller and his team of all star prosecutors. If there is something that can be found, I believe they will find it and release it. If they somehow determine there is nothing, despite all the public evidence to the contrary, then I will accept that. Mueller is our best, fair, chance at resolution on this issue.
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On May 02 2018 06:13 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 05:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 02 2018 05:53 Mohdoo wrote:On May 02 2018 05:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
I can't help but wonder...
If Mueller finishes and in no way recommends that Trump be prosecuted, or like Comey basically says "no lawyer would take this case and win", for liberals, does that mean Trump shouldn't be prosecuted, Mueller and the justice system failed, or something else? It wouldn't surprise me if he did just barely scratch by without doing something technically technically teccchhhniccaalllly illegal. I do expect it will have some amount of "we can't prove Trump knew ____", but in that case, I expect Trump Jr or Kushner to go down. I think your question is kind of silly though because there are a million things that could happen. "Trump not being prosecuted" is itself a very broad thing. The nuance is what matters and will depend a lot on what we are provided with and ...millions of other things. I don't think there is value in speculating at this point. Outside of prosecution and impeachment (which I've always thought were pipe dreams) what then are some of the "millions of other things" that would not make this mostly a colossal waste of time and attention? Trump Jr taken down, Kushner taken down, more evidence Russia made a concentrated attempt to fuck with us. More evidence Wikileaks is just a branch of Russian intelligence at this point. There are all sorts of outcomes that would justify the investigation. NRA money exposed. Changes to how campaign funding works after "the trump campaign unknowingly taking money from Russia". There's bazillions of outcomes.
I don't think any of those are coming or those that to some degree have or will should take a Mueller investigation to get there. Most of that, if not all (true or not) should be handled with moderate electoral awareness and a remotely competent press. Neither of which we'll have at the end of this.
But maybe there are some realistic or significant ones in the bazillions I'm not considering or aren't being brought up. Those are really what I'm looking for.
On May 02 2018 06:23 On_Slaught wrote:
I too trust Mueller and his team of all star prosecutors. If there is something that can be found, I believe they will find it and release it. If they somehow determine there is nothing, despite all the public evidence to the contrary, then I will accept that. Mueller is our best, fair, chance at resolution on this issue.
I sincerely don't understand this deference to a 'process' that determines Trump shouldn't be removed from office. To me there's no dispute that if Trump remains in office the system has failed in basically all ways.
EDIT: Also people really don't have a problem with trusting a guy who was so deceptive and acted so questionably after 9/11 while at the FBI (a pretty terrible institution)? His questionable integrity goes back further than that.
In 2001, the four men convicted of Teddy Deegan’s murder were exonerated. Turned out the FBI let them take the rap to protect one of their informants, a killer named Vincent “Jimmy’’ Flemmi, who just happened to be the brother of their other rat, Stevie Flemmi. Thanks to the FBI’s corruption, taxpayers got stuck with the $100 million bill for compensating the framed men, two of whom, Greco and Tameleo, died in prison.
Albano was appalled that, later that same year, Mueller was appointed FBI director, because it was Mueller, first as an assistant US attorney then as the acting US attorney in Boston, who wrote letters to the parole and pardons board throughout the 1980s opposing clemency for the four men framed by FBI lies.
www.bostonglobe.com
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I'm not saying that Trump shouldn't be contested at every turn. Rather, regarding impeachment for his past actions, I can't justify those without something from Mueller to legitimize them. Without that, it will be framed as a coup (as it already is being framed). Mueller gives cover to legislators. Without that cover the idea of a Civil War Lite, or Cold Civil War, becomes a real possibility. At the very least Mueller can help kick Trump out in 2020 by exposing all his bullshit.
As for all the post-2017 sketchy shit he does, we can take that as it comes.
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On May 02 2018 06:35 On_Slaught wrote:
I'm not saying that Trump shouldn't be contested at every turn. Rather, regarding impeachment for his past actions, I can't justify those without something from Mueller to legitimize them. Without that, it will be framed as a coup (as it already is being framed). Mueller gives cover to legislators. Without that cover the idea of a Civil War Lite, or Cold Civil War, becomes a real possibility. At the very least Mueller can help kick Trump out in 2020 by exposing all his bullshit.
As for all the post-2017 sketchy shit he does, we can take that as it comes.
I think you are putting far to much faith and confidence in the results of Mueller's investigation.
I don't think they will be the comprehensive truth of what happened, or that his confirmation of any allegations floated by media would change significantly the political winds.
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EPT
