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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1562

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-19 15:26:29
June 19 2019 15:24 GMT
#31221
Quote by Alexander Hamilton, one of the architects and salesmen of the constitution, which put in safeguards of executive authority so no populist president would overthrow the Republic. This is seen today in Trump forced to merely criticize the press, rather than end them, criticize the courts, but be bound by their decisions, and criticize Congressional inaction, while being thwarted by Congress. For all their caterwauling, his opponents have done a good job of demonstrating these protections work.

And Doublemint, it would have been a quote by Hamilton, had a few less Trumpian bits been edited out of the middle of it. Were those parts were too inconvenient, or maybe the quote had to be made a more perfect warning?

Now, we were also warned about Congressional delegation of power. Unaccountable elites doing the real business of government, while the elected parts are shielded from responsibility for mistakes. I thought a little bit of chaos, and a lot of showing Americans how much the permanent bureaucracy despises them and their votes, would do the country some good. I think the country (for the cheap seats, an electoral majority) made the right decision in that respect, and frankly gets proven to have made the right decision a little more with every passing week.

The rhetorical question at the start begs another question: Did the intelligence community violate the law and now need to be reined in? Sneers at the president are no substitute for that important question. I'm repeating myself from a few days ago, but I think the president currently has an AG, IG, and an AG appointed lawyer that are well suited to answer that question. Indeed, the level of effort committed against answering that question makes me think everybody running scared that their political idols are exposed and going to get smashed by the investigation.

+ Show Spoiler +
On June 20 2019 00:00 Doublemint wrote:
so you actually want Trump and his ilk to rein in the intelligence community?

Trump, a man you literally were warned about.

"unprincipled in private life, desperate in his fortune, bold in his temper, despotic in his ordinary demeanour, known to have scoffed in private at the principles of liberty – when such a man is seen to mount the hobby horse of popularity to join in the cry of danger to liberty to take every opportunity of embarrassing the General Government & bringing it under suspicion to flatter and fall in with all the nonsense of the zealots of the day – it may justly be suspected that his object is to throw things into confusion that he may “ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.”-Alexander Hamilton

good luck with.

or maybe, just maybe a man only more divorced from reality than from his ex wives is turning this into a "let's fight the deep state" talking point because he can't even run on "the greatest economy in the history of our country." let alone on the tax cuts.

Show nested quote +
More than half of Americans who were adults amid the Great Recession said they endured some type of negative financial impact, Bankrate found. And half of those people say they're doing worse now than before the crisis.
...
Fewer than half (46%) of those who were adults at the time of the recession say they've seen their paychecks grow since before it began. More than a third of those who say they, or their partner, lost a job during the recession say their pay has actually dropped from before the recession. More than 2,700 adults were interviewed online in May.


CNBCMarkets

Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
June 19 2019 15:51 GMT
#31222
My eggs are in the Haspel-destruction-of-evidence basket. She was the CIA station chief in London; she knew. She is part of the plot itself.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44448 Posts
June 19 2019 15:52 GMT
#31223
It’s an interesting spin that it’s a good thing that the President, who you seem to think is inclined to abuse his power, has been constitutionally thwarted. I’d still consider the situation negative.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
June 19 2019 15:55 GMT
#31224
Also, Republicans should return Obama's favor of not investigating the intelligence abuses related to the Iraq war. Bush killed 100,000+ people in Iraq, and Republicans repeatedly admonished us that the casualties were mere collateral damage from a necessary war. Yet, it was premised on CIA corruption, and Republicans now dont want to touch the war with a 10 foot pole.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-19 19:50:47
June 19 2019 16:02 GMT
#31225
On June 20 2019 00:52 KwarK wrote:
It’s an interesting spin that it’s a good thing that the President, who you seem to think is inclined to abuse his power, has been constitutionally thwarted. I’d still consider the situation negative.

It is interesting, to reconcile the warning of one of our Founding Fathers - who conservatives tend to revere - with the bumbling criminality of their current champion, by asserting that since said champion hasn't managed to throw modern America as we know it into utter chaos, a celebration is therefore in order.

A car without radiator fluid in it would only not explode for your decision to not drive it. That doesn't mean you don't need to fix your car.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8777 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-19 16:21:44
June 19 2019 16:12 GMT
#31226
@danglars

the thing is, I googled the passage to find a more complete quote. because I had an even shorter, more Trump appropriated snippet from Michiko Kokutani's book "The Death of Truth".

decent enough read, though the best part for me at least is that she's quoting a hell of a lot of smart people I might dig into more at some point.

so what kind of argument is that? he "merely criticises the press"? calling someone the enemy of the people is merely criticising? and the opponents did not show anything really regarding the safeguards working, they pointed out flaws. that in itself can be interpreted as "strengthening" the constitutional norms, as shedding light and making public noise is what the "fourth branch" of government is supposed to do.

what I don't get is how some of you can be so blasé when breaking of norms in itself has become the norm. nepotism, hatch act, emoluments clause,... not accepting help from a foreign power a.k.a collusion... need I continue?

unaccounted elites doing the business? tell me who is supposed to do it then under these circumstances?

and would you be so kind to elaborate on that, how did that manifest (in your daily life)? "a permanent bureaucracy despising the common people?"

//edit: to emphasize on my point:

Only 56 percent of the key positions in the Department of Homeland Security that require nomination and confirmation have been filled, according to the tracker. Kirstjen Nielsen has been working without a deputy since she was sworn in as secretary in December 2017.

At the Justice Department, just 48 percent of such positions have been filled. The department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has been without a permanent director for years. Deputy Director Thomas Brandon, an agency veteran, has been acting director since 2015.


NBC

Trump might have an AG and a couple more people willing to carry water and give interviews. but that's not where the actual work is done, is there? how is he going to do that when STILL there are so many vacancies.


fawns over the new helipad's rave reviews.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12086 Posts
June 19 2019 16:31 GMT
#31227
I am all in favor of reigning in intelligence agencies. Most intelligence agencies, including US ones, are pretty scary if you are in favor of stuff like privacy or rule of law. Making up evidence to start a horrible war which killed 100s of thousands and destabilized the whole middle east, the results of which are still dominating that region is only the top of the iceberg here.

The problem is that i neither think that that is actually what Trump wants to do, nor do i trust him to be competent enough to get anywhere should he actually want to do that.

Trump wants to fight people who don't obey him, and those who say mean things about him. If the intelligence agencies were to come out and say that Trump is the bestest president ever, and maybe deliver some dirt on Hillary to him, and continue to obey every inate thing he demands, he would immediately stop caring about "reigning them in". What i see is not someone who cares about the rule of law trying to stop overreach, but a wannabe dictator fighting political opponents.

Ask yourself honestly if Trump would act the same way he does now if the tables were flipped, and we were talking about an investigation into Hillary instead of one into Trump. Since i doubt even Danglers or xDaunt could claim that, this is clearly not about the rule of law, but about Trumps ego and his demand for power.

As a general rule, if you only care about the rule of law when fighting for it benefits you, you don't care about the rule of law. If you only fight for privacy when it is your own privacy you are talking about, you don't care about privacy. The real test of what you actually care about is when you fight for something that is right despite it not being to your immediate advantage. And US republicans in general, and Trump in particular, fail that test at every possible junction. Thus, it is really hard to see anything that they do as anything but naked partisan power politic. Do the stuff that helps you, do the stuff that hurts your political opponent, fuck any principles whatsoever.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24507 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-19 17:05:34
June 19 2019 17:05 GMT
#31228
On June 20 2019 01:31 Simberto wrote:
I am all in favor of reigning in intelligence agencies. Most intelligence agencies, including US ones, are pretty scary if you are in favor of stuff like privacy or rule of law. Making up evidence to start a horrible war which killed 100s of thousands and destabilized the whole middle east, the results of which are still dominating that region is only the top of the iceberg here.

The problem is that i neither think that that is actually what Trump wants to do, nor do i trust him to be competent enough to get anywhere should he actually want to do that.

Trump wants to fight people who don't obey him, and those who say mean things about him. If the intelligence agencies were to come out and say that Trump is the bestest president ever, and maybe deliver some dirt on Hillary to him, and continue to obey every inate thing he demands, he would immediately stop caring about "reigning them in". What i see is not someone who cares about the rule of law trying to stop overreach, but a wannabe dictator fighting political opponents.

Ask yourself honestly if Trump would act the same way he does now if the tables were flipped, and we were talking about an investigation into Hillary instead of one into Trump. Since i doubt even Danglers or xDaunt could claim that, this is clearly not about the rule of law, but about Trumps ego and his demand for power.

As a general rule, if you only care about the rule of law when fighting for it benefits you, you don't care about the rule of law. If you only fight for privacy when it is your own privacy you are talking about, you don't care about privacy. The real test of what you actually care about is when you fight for something that is right despite it not being to your immediate advantage. And US republicans in general, and Trump in particular, fail that test at every possible junction. Thus, it is really hard to see anything that they do as anything but naked partisan power politic. Do the stuff that helps you, do the stuff that hurts your political opponent, fuck any principles whatsoever.


I agree with many of the sentiments expressed in this post and some that preceded it, but I have to begin to wonder, has anyone ever won a street fight by pointing out the other guy threw sand in his face and kicked him in the balls (if you follow the metaphor)?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8777 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-19 18:00:23
June 19 2019 17:47 GMT
#31229
that argument presupposes that we are in a street fight. and somehow an out of shape (obese?) seventy something year old tough talker would be able to hold his ground there

but in all honesty, I see your point and as danglars said, much of the damage has been mitigated. though not for lack of trying on the administrations part. and definitely not because there are "adults in the room" as an Op-Ed once said. so, great stuff I guess? the house did not burn down even though we let a pyromaniac in?

now to come back to the kick in the balls theme - I would very much favor impeachment proceedings. the Mueller report is only the latest instance that would warrant it. if Democrats cared to win, they would be united in the house and in the senate for that.

if it fails, which it most definitely will, you let the Republicans bind their fate to Trump's. the blue wave of 2018 was not only a resounding rebuttal of the Liar in Chief but a perfect indicator that enthusiasm is very much in one court, Millenials can actually be useful for once! ()

and I feel like that has been underreported here, I myself was still somehow surprised even after 2 years of this race to the bottom. I am talking about the Stephanopoulos interview. you think the Holt interview was bad after firing Comey? try the new one, it's mind boggling.
Trump is a maniac dancing on the edge.

he not only opened the door for further collusion, he retroactively painted himself as the liar that he is by saying "it's ok to take a foreign power's help to win". moral bankruptcy in a soundbite.

if only some people could see the damage this does to America's leadership role. which first and foremost held for as long as it did because you were "the good guys". at least on paper. Trump does not even pretend anymore. how could he, you at least have to understand the thing you are pretending.

//typo & clarification


fawns over the new helipad's rave reviews.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24507 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-19 19:18:31
June 19 2019 19:17 GMT
#31230
Happy Juneteenth everyone!

What is Juneteenth? A celebration of when news of "freedom" reached slaves in Texas ~2 years after the Emancipation Proclamation.

A summary from Wiki:

During the American Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation on September 22, 1862, with an effective date of January 1, 1863. It declared that all enslaved persons in the Confederate States of America in rebellion and not in Union hands were to be freed. This excluded the five states known later as border states, which were the four "slave states" not in rebellion – Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware, and Missouri – and those counties of Virginia soon to form the state of West Virginia, and also the three zones under Union occupation: the state of Tennessee, lower Louisiana, and Southeast Virginia.[citation needed]

More isolated geographically, Texas was not a battleground, and thus the people held there as slaves were not affected by the Emancipation Proclamation unless they escaped.[7] Planters and other slaveholders had migrated into Texas from eastern states to escape the fighting, and many brought enslaved people with them, increasing by the thousands the enslaved population in the state at the end of the Civil War.[8] Although most enslaved people lived in rural areas, more than 1,000 resided in both Galveston and Houston by 1860, with several hundred in other large towns.[9] By 1865, there were an estimated 250,000 enslaved people in Texas.[8]

The news of General Robert E. Lee's surrender on April 9 reached Texas later in the month.[10] The Army of the Trans-Mississippi did not surrender until June 2.[8] On June 18, Union Army General Gordon Granger arrived at Galveston Island with 2,000 federal troops to occupy Texas on behalf of the federal government.[7] The following day, standing on the balcony of Galveston's Ashton Villa, Granger read aloud the contents of "General Order No. 3", announcing the total emancipation of those held as slaves:

The people of Texas are informed that, in accordance with a proclamation from the Executive of the United States, all slaves are free. This involves an absolute equality of personal rights and rights of property between former masters and slaves, and the connection heretofore existing between them becomes that between employer and hired labor. The freedmen are advised to remain quietly at their present homes and work for wages. They are informed that they will not be allowed to collect at military posts and that they will not be supported in idleness either there or elsewhere.[11]

Formerly enslaved people in Galveston rejoiced in the streets after the announcement, although in the years afterward many struggled to work through the changes against resistance of whites. The following year, freedmen organized the first of what became the annual celebration of Juneteenth in Texas.[11] In some cities African-Americans were barred from using public parks because of state-sponsored segregation of facilities. Across parts of Texas, freed people pooled their funds to purchase land to hold their celebrations, such as Houston's Emancipation Park, Mexia's Booker T. Washington Park, and Emancipation Park in Austin.[8][11]

Although the date is sometimes referred to as the "traditional end of slavery in Texas" it was given legal status in a series of Texas Supreme Court decisions between 1868 and 1874.[12]

In the early 20th century, economic and political forces led to a decline in Juneteenth celebrations. From 1890 to 1908, Texas and all former Confederate states passed new constitutions or amendments that effectively disenfranchised black people, excluding them from the political process. White-dominated state legislatures passed Jim Crow laws imposing second-class status. The Great Depression forced many black people off farms and into the cities to find work. In these urban environments, African Americans had difficulty taking the day off to celebrate. The Second Great Migration began during World War II, when many black people migrated to the West Coast where skilled jobs in the defense industry were opening up.[13] From 1940 through 1970, in the second wave of the Great Migration, more than 5 million black people left Texas, Louisiana and other parts of the South for the North and West Coast. As historian Isabel Wilkerson writes, "The people from Texas took Juneteenth Day to Los Angeles, Oakland, Seattle, and other places they went."


en.wikipedia.org
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
June 19 2019 21:27 GMT
#31231
So what does everyone think the odds of the US going to war with Iran are?

Do you think we go in even if no other country will go with us?

I am not sure if its just liberal circles being scared about a war that has no chance of actually happening, or if there is a real risk we are about to start another forever war.
Something witty
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12086 Posts
June 19 2019 21:33 GMT
#31232
I really, really hope you won't, but i am not willing to make any predictions. American politics is weird and unpredictable. You elected Trump. The US seems to like being at war, too.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
9077 Posts
June 19 2019 21:53 GMT
#31233
On June 20 2019 06:33 Simberto wrote:
I really, really hope you won't, but i am not willing to make any predictions. American politics is weird and unpredictable. You elected Trump. The US seems to like being at war, too.

That's a damn big brush you got there. Hope you don't paint everyone with it. /s
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
June 19 2019 21:54 GMT
#31234
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24507 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-20 00:50:02
June 20 2019 00:43 GMT
#31235
On June 20 2019 06:27 IyMoon wrote:
So what does everyone think the odds of the US going to war with Iran are?

Do you think we go in even if no other country will go with us?

I am not sure if its just liberal circles being scared about a war that has no chance of actually happening, or if there is a real risk we are about to start another forever war.


It's a Schrodinger war to me. As long as we don't look at it, it's not a war, like Afghanistan.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
tomatriedes
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
New Zealand5356 Posts
June 20 2019 10:43 GMT
#31236
On June 20 2019 00:00 Doublemint wrote:
so you actually want Trump and his ilk to rein in the intelligence community?



Trump is a very bad person, but if you don't think the CIA hawks won't pull the exact same shit against a left-wing non-establishment figure who wants to rein in interventionism (i.e. Bernie), then you're incredibly naive. I want to see them get exposed for this very reason.
Pangpootata
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
1838 Posts
June 20 2019 11:34 GMT
#31237
On June 20 2019 19:43 tomatriedes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2019 00:00 Doublemint wrote:
so you actually want Trump and his ilk to rein in the intelligence community?



Trump is a very bad person, but if you don't think the CIA hawks won't pull the exact same shit against a left-wing non-establishment figure who wants to rein in interventionism (i.e. Bernie), then you're incredibly naive. I want to see them get exposed for this very reason.


This.

While I don't share the Trump hatred of most people in this thread, I think you guys should be glad. If two parties you don't like are trying to undermine each other, just grab the popcorn and find a comfy seat. Let Trump and the CIA duke it out.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-20 11:44:26
June 20 2019 11:42 GMT
#31238
How is it 'Trump vs CIA' when it is Trump who chose CIA director Pompeo as secretary of state, who promoted torture promoter Haspel to director, and who chose Bolton as national security adviser.

He's not against intelligence agencies having scary powers, he's against having them look at his own illegal doings lol. He loves to wield their unlimited powers against anyone else, like any authoritarian does..
Neosteel Enthusiast
Pangpootata
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
1838 Posts
June 20 2019 12:07 GMT
#31239
Just wait till Trump gets tired of Haspel and starts publicly insulting her like he did to many of his former cabinet members.

He is very maladroit at staging the sort of authoritarian conspiracy you're suggesting.
Aveng3r
Profile Joined February 2012
United States2411 Posts
June 20 2019 14:29 GMT
#31240
On June 20 2019 06:33 Simberto wrote:
I really, really hope you won't, but i am not willing to make any predictions. American politics is weird and unpredictable. You elected Trump. The US seems to like being at war, too.

Yeah man its great, we get to shoot our guns at stuff and say 'MURICA a lot.
I carve marble busts of assassinated world leaders - PM for a quote
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