US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1513

On May 30 2019 09:44 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]

Nothing in my post shows any sign of being upset, lol? I'm going to assume this is just your way of asserting victory and I'll be over there, quite unimpressed.

First, it's pretty clear that capitalists are doing that, it's not just "if you think that". They have an history of doing it, from lying about sugar causing obesity to lying about smoking causing cancer. Now that they know that they are causing climate change, they are lying about it as long as they can. There is a consistency there. If they were being short-sighted about this, then they were also short-sighted about smoking under the same logic: "we maximize profits now but once people discover that smoking actually does cause cancer, it's going to go badly". Okay... but it's going to go badly later, and for now we are making profits, that's what maximizing is.

Second, no it won't be the same people. You have to be a certain type of person to be a good capitalist and rise to the top of that system. Not all people are like that, most people aren't. It is much harder for an entire set of workers to decide to screw people over than it is for a single individual that massively benefits from doing it.

I don't really know why the US won the cold war to be honest. Probably a variety of reasons. USSR sucked at being leftist, convinced a bunch of Slavs that capitalism was preferable. But I wouldn't be comfortable defining what the main reason is, I haven't cared enough about the USSR to research that.

The business owners that you know won't rise to the top of capitalism. They care about external things like the well-being of their workers or their own moral compass. That doesn't maximize profits. People reaching a sufficient level in capitalism and keeping those types of views are extreme outliers, most of the time we're talking Koch and Bezos and Soros.

I think it's clear from our posts who is getting emotional and who isn't.

On May 30 2019 09:26 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Of course it doesn't, I'm not sure why you are getting so upset, so I'm just going to shut this down. In the least condescending way possible let me ask you to take a civics course, I'm not interested or probably qualified to teach it, but it can explain to you how these systems work in attempts to stop corruption and why and when they have changed to try to do it better.

Capitalists are people, the same people who would be socialists and make decisions. If you think people are that callus and purely self interested then they are going to do the same things in the name of socialism but with none of the oversight, so good luck with that.

Why do you think it won the cold war?

There are ways to lift the bottom and compress the top. It is like you don't understand or are unwilling to talk about the regulation portion of governance in the current system. If anyone is high on propaganda here it is you, your ranting like everyone currently is a money grubbing sociopath and that is just not the case. I know a lot of business owners who do awesome things for their staff and care about the environment. So get off your soap box, get some life experience and go out and see how things are, and stop listening to youtube videos of "leftist" truthers who speak headcanon like fake from their dorm rooms.

On May 31 2019 02:20 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]

I think you shifted the meaning of capitalist from "member of the capitalist class" to "person who supports capitalism" and that's how you got that impression that I was attacking you. What I described was the thought process that would lead someone that owns the means of production in a coal or a petroleum company to fight climate change science without being irrational or short-sighted. I believe that it's totally rational for them to do this based on the framework of capitalism, and that's what I'm trying to show. I do think that when people talk about what they have to lose in a fight against capitalism, that certainly comes from a position of privilege, but that's something I can only attack from a moral standpoint, not a rational standpoint, so I won't be using this.

This conversation is interesting because of the type of progress that we're making. For example, I gave you an answer on why socialism is an improvement on capitalism when it comes to climate change, and you've decided to completely ignore that and continue to pretend that I'm saying "socialism, how does it solve the problems? Socialism". So there's no progress there. On the other side, you're now clearly standing in support of capitalism and against socialism, so hopefully there's progress there, and next time we have this conversation we won't have to deal with the period where you pretend that you like socialism but you just need a clear picture of how it's going to be implemented.

The way you are using moral character of humans is interesting and shows quite a bit of projection I believe. Nothing I've said demonstrates that I believe the character of humans changes between economic systems, that's something that you appear to have just made up. Oppositely, your reaction of "If you think people are that callous and self-interested" when defending capitalists is something that stands in stark contrast with your attacks on state ownership, that generally involve talking about human corruption and self-interest. If there is an inconsistency there, I think it's on your part of the argument.

I... really don't care about the USSR? I'm not a tankie? They went for a state ownership system and I don't think that's a good idea? The idea of state ownership is justified as a transitory state before we give the means of production to the workers, and they... never did that in 70 years (I believe they actively fought against it)? People in the USSR made sure that people read Marx as seldom as possible so that they wouldn't notice that the party line looked nothing like what Marx was saying?

Like, I could also look at Pol Pot, he thought that the good way to go about communism was to go full nazbol, so he went with state ownership (with peasantry as the vanguard, as it's the maoist system) plus a whole lot of nationalism! That's... the horseshoe theory, surprisingly, and guess what it didn't work either. But I don't want to do that shit, so what would it bring me to know how it failed?

I gave you a bunch of answers to the questions that you purportedly have. It's up to you what you do with them.

No, I'm personally not a great example when it comes to climate. I'm not the worst but I don't make particularly large efforts, I use a car when I need it which is about once or twice a week, I take a plane to Vegas every year... I can't even bring myself to become a vegan even though I have no rational argument to oppose veganism. But I do take solace in my ability to recognize that climate change is a systemic problem and it necessitates a systemic solution, that's at least something I've got over the most climate-conscious liberal.

But I do take solace in my ability to recognize that climate change is a systemic problem and it necessitates a systemic solution, that's at least something I've got over the most climate-conscious liberal.

I... really don't care about the USSR?

On the other side, you're now clearly standing in support of capitalism and against socialism,

On May 30 2019 20:13 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Upset was probably the wrong word, but you are getting progressively more insulting and I should stop before I insult you and one or both of us get upset. Your second paragraph basically insinuated that anybody who is not a socialist doesn't care about the environment and as you put it brown people. That is super frustrating when there are tons of us out there actually doing something and we have to hear about how you have solution to all our problems, oh whats that, socialism, how does it solve the problems? Socialism. You are going to end up alienating all the people you hope to convince for your revolution. What I don't understand with you and especially GH is do you guys not understand that the people you consider evil centerist libs are the exact people that you would need to convince to have your revolution? Do you really think the right strategy in this is to allude that we are racists who don't care about the environment and are controlled by right-wing propoganda?

You seem to think that changing the system from Capitalism to socialism will change all the people from your definition of capitalist to your definition of socialist. So far this has never happened.

It might be valuable for you to do some actual research into why the countries that tried to go communist did not work, how it worked out for the average person and why in the end it failed. Not because your wrong, or I'm trying win, because then when people like me ask you these basic questions you will have the answers and it won't appear that you are a very young guy, very naive to how historically these revolutions turn out.

Please consider that not every piece of news out there about the negatives of communism or socialism is right wing propaganda. And there is left-wing propaganda out there. If you just dismiss everything that you don't like as "right-wing propaganda" you are really no different then the right wing people who dismiss everything as "left-wing propaganda". I'm clearly not a trustworthy source to you but it is worth looking outside of what your looking at now to better understand why so few people want this revolution you are speaking about when to you it solves all the major problems.


And also no I don't think I won, I think I lost, and there is no hope of any positive outcome. I was hoping to have a discussion about how you would implement a socialist system that would fall prey to all the same issues that the others one had, that perhaps you had done some thought and research into it. But instead of you attempting to pull me into your camp with actual ideas I got the same old surface stuff sprinkled with insults and condescension.

+ Show Spoiler +

On May 31 2019 03:52 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
[quote]

Us people doing things about it would call this a cop out, "I can't solve it so I just won't do anything." Yes you not taking trans Atlantic flights every year will not save the planet, but it does make a difference especially if millions of people like you stop. Change is hard and uncomfortable, perhaps some reflection on why you knowingly don't make these changes you have stated that you know will help you to understand why I don't think you can simply drop knowledge to people and they will automatically become however you want them to be. And that is even if you can get them that knowledge.

[quote]
That is fine, but when you are a looking at system you need to look at the ones that came before and failed so you don't repeat the same mistakes. If you ever want to move past the philosophical stage to the practical one you are going to have to understand its past failings.

[quote]

The more I talk to you to some degree, and to a much bigger degree the more I talk to GH I move further and further into the socialist democracy camp with regulated capitalism as a must. Your and his version of the "capitalist class" gets way to close to the "deep state" for my liking. It appears to take all responsibility away from people and the individual choices they make, because socialism will save the day. While I'm glad the propaganda you are immersed in far less hateful than the far rights it does not seem any more grounded in reality.

There are reasons there has been no successful communist/socialist country. It is not because of the capitalist class bogey man, actual tangible reasons, and they are out there in history books and so on. The answer is far from as simple as they do work its capitalist propaganda that they have not. Or they have not worked because of capitalists under mining it. I'll let you come to your own conclusions about why past attempted revolutions failed because you don't have any trust with me and it is more likely I'll push you basically opposite whatever I say.

Be aware leftist propaganda also exists, the right does not have exclusive rights to it. If you look up literacy rates you will notice authoritarians who claim to be from both ends of the spectrum have high rates because teaching people to read is the perfect time to indoctrinate them. Propaganda works, on everybody me and you included. The best defense against it is to read news and information from as many sources as possible. If you only read leftist news, from leftist news sources chances are you will not get the entire picture.

Also it seems like you live a pretty good lifestyle, not very many people from a % standpoint have the ability to take a transatlantic flight yearly for vacation purposes. It would suggest to me that you come from a family that is above what I would define as "working class". I'm not sure of your work history or even age for that matter, but if you expect to connect with these people, (who are people like my friends and family) you probably want to go find some work with them. Nothing a working class person likes less than is a starbucks communist with all the answers philosophically, none of the experience and fair bit of money.

On May 31 2019 05:02 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]

I have no idea what system you want. That is my big issue. Because I don't know I guessed that the USSR might be one of the closest to what you want. You have said you don't want central decision making, and some sort of democracy per factory thing, but I'm not sure how that works in regards to public services or on a global scale. And it is scary that you don't know why the USSR or other attempted socialist states failed. As you said facts exist it would be worth looking them up.

My point was that your version of the capital class is a lot like the rights version of the deep state.

I believed that plastic recycling was good and than when I put it in the proper bin the proper way it was good and good for the environment. I don't know if this is the thread to get into why that was so foolish and the many ways it is wrong but if there is interest I'm happy to.

On a smaller and TL related thing I also believed an article that said that Hugo Chavez daughter was a billionaire, when it turns out no one has any idea what she is worth, just that shes leads a exceptional lifestyle, including living in palaces and so on, and no one really knows how much money she has, could be none and is just funded by Maduro's government to keep the good will of the Chavista's or she could be super rich.

no operable way to reform capitalism in a way to prevent that I need to open myself up to this "socialism" thing

On May 31 2019 04:37 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]

A lot of this answer is you refusing to engage with arguments that have been provided to you. On climate change, you think I want to do nothing because change is uncomfortable, when I'm actually proposing systemic change to fix a systemic problem, and it is you who is uncomfortable with that and instead want to limit yourself to individual change because that's a level of change you are comfortable with, regardless of the efficiency or realism of either of these ideas.

On the USSR, you think I want a similar system and it's close to the deep state, when I repeatedly distinguished between state ownership of the means of production and worker ownership of the means of production. It is impossible to follow an argument that starts with "we should have an increased level of democracy" and conclude "That sounds too much like the Deep State for my liking", clearly there is some prejudice going on here.

The notion that active and violent opposition from a powerful economic system is not a tangible reason for failure is ridiculous.

We live in the First World my friend. All of our lifestyles are pretty good from a % standpoint. I make money from poker, so Vegas has been most of the time a source of income rather than a vacation. Not that it would change anything otherwise.

Closing thoughts on propaganda. Here is a recent example of leftist propaganda that I fell for: there were polls on Biden and Sanders that showed Biden was in the lead with a large margin. But if you looked at the methodology of these polls, you saw that they had a bunch of "N/A" in the 19-45 demographics. Some leftist news source that I watch and generally trust argued that those polls were bullshit because, while N/A doesn't mean "nobody in the demographic was polled", the sample was so small that it can't be considered representative, and therefore the poll result is skewed. That made sense to me and I didn't doubt them, so I thought that was the truth. It turns out it's more complicated than that, because when pollsters don't have enough people representing a demographic, they extrapolate from the numbers they have and pretend that they got more than they did. It's still not a perfect representation, of course, because if you interrogate 50 25 years-old and 8 of them are for Biden, you can't logically conclude that if you had interrogated 500, then 80 of them would be for Biden. But it's still a better estimate than the picture I had because of the news source I watched.

Do you know how I can tell that this is propaganda? Because there is a reality. Facts exist. So I can compare what I've been told with the facts, and see that this doesn't match. That's helpful that way. Hey, here's one for you: what's the last example of you falling for liberal propaganda that you remember?

On May 31 2019 03:52 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
[quote]

Us people doing things about it would call this a cop out, "I can't solve it so I just won't do anything." Yes you not taking trans Atlantic flights every year will not save the planet, but it does make a difference especially if millions of people like you stop. Change is hard and uncomfortable, perhaps some reflection on why you knowingly don't make these changes you have stated that you know will help you to understand why I don't think you can simply drop knowledge to people and they will automatically become however you want them to be. And that is even if you can get them that knowledge.

[quote]
That is fine, but when you are a looking at system you need to look at the ones that came before and failed so you don't repeat the same mistakes. If you ever want to move past the philosophical stage to the practical one you are going to have to understand its past failings.

[quote]

The more I talk to you to some degree, and to a much bigger degree the more I talk to GH I move further and further into the socialist democracy camp with regulated capitalism as a must. Your and his version of the "capitalist class" gets way to close to the "deep state" for my liking. It appears to take all responsibility away from people and the individual choices they make, because socialism will save the day. While I'm glad the propaganda you are immersed in far less hateful than the far rights it does not seem any more grounded in reality.

There are reasons there has been no successful communist/socialist country. It is not because of the capitalist class bogey man, actual tangible reasons, and they are out there in history books and so on. The answer is far from as simple as they do work its capitalist propaganda that they have not. Or they have not worked because of capitalists under mining it. I'll let you come to your own conclusions about why past attempted revolutions failed because you don't have any trust with me and it is more likely I'll push you basically opposite whatever I say.

Be aware leftist propaganda also exists, the right does not have exclusive rights to it. If you look up literacy rates you will notice authoritarians who claim to be from both ends of the spectrum have high rates because teaching people to read is the perfect time to indoctrinate them. Propaganda works, on everybody me and you included. The best defense against it is to read news and information from as many sources as possible. If you only read leftist news, from leftist news sources chances are you will not get the entire picture.

Also it seems like you live a pretty good lifestyle, not very many people from a % standpoint have the ability to take a transatlantic flight yearly for vacation purposes. It would suggest to me that you come from a family that is above what I would define as "working class". I'm not sure of your work history or even age for that matter, but if you expect to connect with these people, (who are people like my friends and family) you probably want to go find some work with them. Nothing a working class person likes less than is a starbucks communist with all the answers philosophically, none of the experience and fair bit of money.

On May 31 2019 04:37 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]

A lot of this answer is you refusing to engage with arguments that have been provided to you. On climate change, you think I want to do nothing because change is uncomfortable, when I'm actually proposing systemic change to fix a systemic problem, and it is you who is uncomfortable with that and instead want to limit yourself to individual change because that's a level of change you are comfortable with, regardless of the efficiency or realism of either of these ideas.

On the USSR, you think I want a similar system and it's close to the deep state, when I repeatedly distinguished between state ownership of the means of production and worker ownership of the means of production. It is impossible to follow an argument that starts with "we should have an increased level of democracy" and conclude "That sounds too much like the Deep State for my liking", clearly there is some prejudice going on here.

The notion that active and violent opposition from a powerful economic system is not a tangible reason for failure is ridiculous.

We live in the First World my friend. All of our lifestyles are pretty good from a % standpoint. I make money from poker, so Vegas has been most of the time a source of income rather than a vacation. Not that it would change anything otherwise.

Closing thoughts on propaganda. Here is a recent example of leftist propaganda that I fell for: there were polls on Biden and Sanders that showed Biden was in the lead with a large margin. But if you looked at the methodology of these polls, you saw that they had a bunch of "N/A" in the 19-45 demographics. Some leftist news source that I watch and generally trust argued that those polls were bullshit because, while N/A doesn't mean "nobody in the demographic was polled", the sample was so small that it can't be considered representative, and therefore the poll result is skewed. That made sense to me and I didn't doubt them, so I thought that was the truth. It turns out it's more complicated than that, because when pollsters don't have enough people representing a demographic, they extrapolate from the numbers they have and pretend that they got more than they did. It's still not a perfect representation, of course, because if you interrogate 50 25 years-old and 8 of them are for Biden, you can't logically conclude that if you had interrogated 500, then 80 of them would be for Biden. But it's still a better estimate than the picture I had because of the news source I watched.

Do you know how I can tell that this is propaganda? Because there is a reality. Facts exist. So I can compare what I've been told with the facts, and see that this doesn't match. That's helpful that way. Hey, here's one for you: what's the last example of you falling for liberal propaganda that you remember?

On May 31 2019 04:37 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]

A lot of this answer is you refusing to engage with arguments that have been provided to you. On climate change, you think I want to do nothing because change is uncomfortable, when I'm actually proposing systemic change to fix a systemic problem, and it is you who is uncomfortable with that and instead want to limit yourself to individual change because that's a level of change you are comfortable with, regardless of the efficiency or realism of either of these ideas.

On the USSR, you think I want a similar system and it's close to the deep state, when I repeatedly distinguished between state ownership of the means of production and worker ownership of the means of production. It is impossible to follow an argument that starts with "we should have an increased level of democracy" and conclude "That sounds too much like the Deep State for my liking", clearly there is some prejudice going on here.

The notion that active and violent opposition from a powerful economic system is not a tangible reason for failure is ridiculous.

We live in the First World my friend. All of our lifestyles are pretty good from a % standpoint. I make money from poker, so Vegas has been most of the time a source of income rather than a vacation. Not that it would change anything otherwise.

Closing thoughts on propaganda. Here is a recent example of leftist propaganda that I fell for: there were polls on Biden and Sanders that showed Biden was in the lead with a large margin. But if you looked at the methodology of these polls, you saw that they had a bunch of "N/A" in the 19-45 demographics. Some leftist news source that I watch and generally trust argued that those polls were bullshit because, while N/A doesn't mean "nobody in the demographic was polled", the sample was so small that it can't be considered representative, and therefore the poll result is skewed. That made sense to me and I didn't doubt them, so I thought that was the truth. It turns out it's more complicated than that, because when pollsters don't have enough people representing a demographic, they extrapolate from the numbers they have and pretend that they got more than they did. It's still not a perfect representation, of course, because if you interrogate 50 25 years-old and 8 of them are for Biden, you can't logically conclude that if you had interrogated 500, then 80 of them would be for Biden. But it's still a better estimate than the picture I had because of the news source I watched.

Do you know how I can tell that this is propaganda? Because there is a reality. Facts exist. So I can compare what I've been told with the facts, and see that this doesn't match. That's helpful that way. Hey, here's one for you: what's the last example of you falling for liberal propaganda that you remember?

On May 31 2019 05:02 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]

I have no idea what system you want. That is my big issue. Because I don't know I guessed that the USSR might be one of the closest to what you want. You have said you don't want central decision making, and some sort of democracy per factory thing, but I'm not sure how that works in regards to public services or on a global scale. And it is scary that you don't know why the USSR or other attempted socialist states failed. As you said facts exist it would be worth looking them up.

My point was that your version of the capital class is a lot like the rights version of the deep state.

I believed that plastic recycling was good and than when I put it in the proper bin the proper way it was good and good for the environment. I don't know if this is the thread to get into why that was so foolish and the many ways it is wrong but if there is interest I'm happy to.

On a smaller and TL related thing I also believed an article that said that Hugo Chavez daughter was a billionaire, when it turns out no one has any idea what she is worth, just that shes leads a exceptional lifestyle, including living in palaces and so on, and no one really knows how much money she has, could be none and is just funded by Maduro's government to keep the good will of the Chavista's or she could be super rich.

On May 31 2019 05:26 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]

Well the USSR was a terrible guess based on the information you had. You could also have relied on this conversation we're in the middle of, where I regularly argue against the USSR system.

I misunderstood you on the deep state, I apologize. If we go on wiki: "some analysts believe that there is "a hybrid association of elements of government and parts of top-level finance and industry that is effectively able to govern the United States without reference to the consent of the governed as expressed through the formal political process"". The problem with the deep state formulation is the "hybrid association" part. It fails in that it presents this as a conspiracy of people in shadowy rooms, often jewish because why not, rather than an extremely logical consequence of how the capitalist system is built. People who have more money have more power than people who have less money, so they are capable of influencing policy better than people who don't have money if they choose to do so. As a result, over time, policy is likely to reflect the will of the people with more money and influence. To counteract that, we have fought for this system called democracy, where we get to influence policy regardless of how much money or how much influence we have. This is sometimes effective and sometimes not: there is a tension there. In the US nowadays, it is almost always ineffective, which is exemplified in how rarely the will of the people has an influence on policy.

On May 31 2019 05:02 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]

I have no idea what system you want. That is my big issue. Because I don't know I guessed that the USSR might be one of the closest to what you want. You have said you don't want central decision making, and some sort of democracy per factory thing, but I'm not sure how that works in regards to public services or on a global scale. And it is scary that you don't know why the USSR or other attempted socialist states failed. As you said facts exist it would be worth looking them up.

My point was that your version of the capital class is a lot like the rights version of the deep state.

I believed that plastic recycling was good and than when I put it in the proper bin the proper way it was good and good for the environment. I don't know if this is the thread to get into why that was so foolish and the many ways it is wrong but if there is interest I'm happy to.

On a smaller and TL related thing I also believed an article that said that Hugo Chavez daughter was a billionaire, when it turns out no one has any idea what she is worth, just that shes leads a exceptional lifestyle, including living in palaces and so on, and no one really knows how much money she has, could be none and is just funded by Maduro's government to keep the good will of the Chavista's or she could be super rich.