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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1485

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
May 24 2019 00:31 GMT
#29681
--- Nuked ---
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
May 24 2019 00:34 GMT
#29682
On May 24 2019 08:42 Danglars wrote:
Julian Assange is being charged under the Espionage Act. Some commentators say the choice of charges implicates some first amendment protections for journalists. The legal precedent for using the act for this kind of disclosure has the New York Times worried:
Show nested quote +
WASHINGTON — Julian Assange, the WikiLeaks leader, has been indicted on 17 counts of violating the Espionage Act for his role in obtaining and publishing secret military and diplomatic documents in 2010, the Justice Department announced on Thursday — a novel case that raises profound First Amendment issues.

The new charges were part of an expanded indictment obtained by the Trump administration that significantly raised the stakes of the legal case against Mr. Assange, who is already fighting extradition proceedings in London based on an earlier hacking-related count brought by federal prosecutors in Northern Virginia.

The case has nothing to do with Russia’s 2016 election interference, when Mr. Assange’s organization published Democratic emails stolen by Russia to help elect President Trump, the case has nothing to do with the election interference. Instead, it focuses on Mr. Assange’s role in the leak, by the former army intelligence analyst Chelsea Manning, of hundreds of thousands of State Department cables and diplomatic files.

Justice Department officials did not explain why they decided to charge Mr. Assange under the Espionage Act — a step also debated within the Obama administration but ultimately not taken. Although the indictment established a precedent that deems criminal actions related to obtaining, and in some cases publishing, state secrets, the officials sought to minimize the implications for press freedoms.

They noted that most of the new charges were related to obtaining the archives of secret documents, as opposed to publishing them. In the counts that deemed the publication of the files a crime, prosecutors focused on a handful of documents revealing the names of people who provided information to the United States in dangerous places like war zones.

“Some say that Assange is a journalist and that he should be immune for prosecution for these actions,” said John Demers, the head of the department’s National Security Division, at a briefing with reporters. “The department takes seriously the role of journalists in our democracy and we thank you for it. It is not and has never been the department’s policy to target them for reporting.”

But Mr. Assange, he said, was “no journalist.” Mr. Demers accused him of conspiring with Ms. Manning to obtain classified information and said “no responsible actor, journalist or otherwise, would purposefully publish the names of individuals he or she knew to be confidential human sources in a war zone, exposing them to the gravest of dangers.”

Still, the Trump administration’s move could establish a precedent used to criminalize future acts of national security journalism that are essentially the same from a legal perspective, said Jameel Jaffer of the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University.

“The charges rely almost entirely on conduct that investigative journalists engage in every day,” he said. “The indictment should be understood as a frontal attack on press freedom.”

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Mr. Demers left the press briefing without taking questions, and a Justice Department official who stayed behind to answer questions on the condition that he would not be named would not address any about how most of the basic actions the indictment deemed felonies by Mr. Assange differed in a legally meaningful way from ordinary national-security investigative journalism — working with sources to obtain secret information of news value and publishing that information without the government’s permission.

Notably, The New York Times, among many other news organizations, obtained precisely the same archives of documents from WikiLeaks, without authorization from the government — the act that most of the charges addressed. While The Times did take steps to withhold the names of informants in the subset of the files it published, it is not clear how that is legally different from publishing other classified information.

NYT

I think he's rotten and on the hook for more. However, criminalizing journalistic conduct ... essentially the government saying who is and isn't a journalist and enjoying protections ... looks like a bad deal.

I agree. It feels like he had something coming for forever, and they didn't need to do it like this. It's tempting to celebrate his deplatforming, but this isn't as simple as that. Ostensibly, "it's not about punishing the act of journalism", but it can very easily veer that way in the future.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23621 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-24 00:47:19
May 24 2019 00:44 GMT
#29683
Considering what stolen files exposed about COINTELPRO and what Assange exposed (US military killing journalists for example) I take the side of the whistleblowers, not the side that would imprison them for it (Assange is a douche for plenty of other reasons though).
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12387 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-24 00:48:36
May 24 2019 00:46 GMT
#29684
On May 24 2019 09:31 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2019 09:20 Nebuchad wrote:
Fwiw, the reason why grownups don't entertain those revolutionary ideas is because they grew up in the 1990s when everyone thought liberalism was the final answer to the world for 10 years. We're slowing moving out of that, arguably too slowly.

Id say it is because we have heard the call for revolution for years and years and better unerstand both the cost of such an event and require some sort of realistic plan for how it would happen. Otherwise it is another starbucks communist who spouts only the solution, peace privileged it has also been described as. It is a little like when Leo and others call him an environmentalist while he flys his private jet around and takes out his yaut.


Without the 1990s you would also understand the cost of not considering a revolution. There's climate change but even without that, it's not like it's not been clear for a while that we're going backwards.
No will to live, no wish to die
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
May 24 2019 00:57 GMT
#29685
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23621 Posts
May 24 2019 01:04 GMT
#29686
Revolutions and democracy aren't exclusive concepts. Chavez helped lead a revolution in Venezuela and it led to one of the most exemplary displays of democracy the world has seen. It's true the outcome of revolution isn't exactly predictable but we have ~10 years to radically change our entire way of life or accept that the next generations will have to as a result of catastrophic climate change they will be powerless to avoid.

If the institutions we have today offer a path to those necessary changes it seems peculiar that those counting on them have been the most ardent that they can't be fixed because of the very nature of the system to which they belong.

That's to say those opposing revolution simultaneously insist that we can't remove the proprietors of the system, dismiss the only viable alternative (based on their own assessment), then refuse to acknowledge they share Kwarks position.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12387 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-24 01:11:34
May 24 2019 01:07 GMT
#29687
On May 24 2019 09:57 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2019 09:46 Nebuchad wrote:
On May 24 2019 09:31 JimmiC wrote:
On May 24 2019 09:20 Nebuchad wrote:
Fwiw, the reason why grownups don't entertain those revolutionary ideas is because they grew up in the 1990s when everyone thought liberalism was the final answer to the world for 10 years. We're slowing moving out of that, arguably too slowly.

Id say it is because we have heard the call for revolution for years and years and better unerstand both the cost of such an event and require some sort of realistic plan for how it would happen. Otherwise it is another starbucks communist who spouts only the solution, peace privileged it has also been described as. It is a little like when Leo and others call him an environmentalist while he flys his private jet around and takes out his yaut.


Without the 1990s you would also understand the cost of not considering a revolution. There's climate change but even without that, it's not like it's not been clear for a while that we're going backwards.


Well I don't disagree that there are many things you can point to that show we are going backwards, there are other things that we are way ahead on. There is also the fact that when you have a revolution there is no guarantee who wins, and you are beholden to who ever wins. Right now whether it is Brazil, Italy, India, so on the far right is the one gaining steam not the left. And without the protections that democracy offers the left has shown time and time again that the people who raise to the top are still interested in power/money extras. I'm far more interested in finding ways of protecting democracy not destroying it and handing the power to someone who says they have all the answers.


You have a far better chance of making real difference by getting out there and impacting the system, there are tons of ways to do it.


There is no guarantee who wins when you consider a revolution but there is a guarantee who wins when you don't: it's the rightwing. You can make that case empirically as that is happening right now in the world. But you can also make that case in the marketplace of ideologies: in liberalism there is a hierarchy, but that hierarchy is preferable to those that came before liberalism because it's based on merit. The people who are on top deserve it.

The corollary to that is that the people who are on the bottom deserve it as well: they didn't have enough merit to rise to the top. Now I'm not sure who thought that this was going to work but it doesn't, and if/when they are dissatisfied, the people at the bottom have two ways of fighting against this. Either they fight against the hierarchy (which is now unavailable because we can't consider a revolution), or they fight to change their place in the hierarchy (by taking the place of other people; and that's where marginalized groups become the easiest victims).

Granted, if things are going well for your society in general, people won't notice that they're at the bottom as much, and they won't push back. But your society isn't likely to go well in general: since there's no pressure from the left, the capitalists are free to accumulate a lion's share of the wealth, and they do. And when an economic crisis comes, as they always will under capitalism, the absence of this money that isn't there anymore is going to be felt.
No will to live, no wish to die
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-24 01:09:16
May 24 2019 01:08 GMT
#29688
Trump just announced on twitter the order to declassify all of the Russiagate stuff. Specifically, he is delegating full declassification authority to Barr. This is going to be fun.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43545 Posts
May 24 2019 01:13 GMT
#29689
Trump said he wouldn’t work with House Democrats until they end an investigation into his obstruction of justice. Which is pretty weird because it sounds to me like the President is attempting to hold the legislative process hostage in order to prevent (or you could even say obstruct) the investigation into wrongdoing.

Give him a year and he’ll be obstructing the investigation into the obstruction of the investigation into the obstruction of the investigation. The man simply does not understand why he can’t abuse his powers to make people stop investigating him for shit.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-24 01:20:05
May 24 2019 01:19 GMT
#29690
Telling the opposing party to stop investigating him or else has worked for previous presidents. That it totally a thing congress has done in the past. Especially to presidents who have sub 50% approval ratings.

The master plan to drag this out through the courts is failing, because the courts are not dragging their feet to be put in between the executive who refuses to produce anything and congress that won't back down.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 24 2019 01:29 GMT
#29691
The declassification order extends to the Department of Energy. Perhaps we are about to learn what really happened with Uranium One?
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 24 2019 01:30 GMT
#29692
Finally we'll have the surveillance info. Barr was pretty quick with the giant Mueller report release, so hopefully he can carry this out with great speed too. Americans deserve answers on the surveillance campaign and actions of domestic spies.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24753 Posts
May 24 2019 01:32 GMT
#29693
On May 24 2019 10:29 xDaunt wrote:
The declassification order extends to the Department of Energy. Perhaps we are about to learn what really happened with Uranium One?

Can you source this? I'm interested in reading about the DoE angle.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 24 2019 01:34 GMT
#29694
On May 24 2019 10:32 micronesia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2019 10:29 xDaunt wrote:
The declassification order extends to the Department of Energy. Perhaps we are about to learn what really happened with Uranium One?

Can you source this? I'm interested in reading about the DoE angle.

https://publicpool.kinja.com/subject-memorandum-on-agency-cooperation-with-attorney-1834993466

There’s a link to the memo.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
May 24 2019 01:34 GMT
#29695
--- Nuked ---
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43545 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-24 01:54:26
May 24 2019 01:36 GMT
#29696
On May 24 2019 10:29 xDaunt wrote:
The declassification order extends to the Department of Energy. Perhaps we are about to learn what really happened with Uranium One?

Dude, it's a conspiracy theory that doesn't make any sense. This has been explained to you countless times. At this point you're at moon landing levels of denial.

What really happened with Uranium One is that a company bought a mine in Kazakhstan and then sold it a few years later.

The premise is a guy who didn't actually own a mining company or have any financial ties with one but used to bribed Hillary Clinton in 2005 (during the Bush administration) by donating money to a charitable foundation that spent it on fighting AIDS.

Hillary Clinton was so grateful for the 2005 charitable donation that she went on to lose the Democratic Party nomination and eventually become the Secretary of State. Meanwhile the mining company that wasn't owned by the donor went on to merge with another mining company which owned mines in the former Soviet Republic of Kazakhstan. Hillary, whose new powers that did not include approving the sale of the mine, was therefore in a position to repay the donor for the AIDS money by having a bunch of other independent people approve a sale of the new company to Russia, thus repaying the guy who wasn't actually involved with Uranium One at all by having no impact on the shares which he didn't own, both at the time of the donation and later when Hillary repaid him for the donation.

In a coincidence so remote that it can only be viewed as suspicious every independent official reviewing the deal all concluded that Russia gaining access to the uranium ore mines that used to be in Russia probably wasn't a security threat. Their unanimous agreement was obviously obtained by Hillary. The uranium mines in the former Soviet Republic of Kazakhstan produced strategic reserves of American uranium which was exported to Russia through the mechanism of leaving it in the ground, in Kazakhstan, for Russia to collect. This uranium led to the creation of the first Russian nuclear weapon in 1949 and led to the start of the Cold War.

It's one hell of a story.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24753 Posts
May 24 2019 01:38 GMT
#29697
On May 24 2019 10:34 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2019 10:32 micronesia wrote:
On May 24 2019 10:29 xDaunt wrote:
The declassification order extends to the Department of Energy. Perhaps we are about to learn what really happened with Uranium One?

Can you source this? I'm interested in reading about the DoE angle.

https://publicpool.kinja.com/subject-memorandum-on-agency-cooperation-with-attorney-1834993466

There’s a link to the memo.

Thanks. This effort doesn't touch restricted data or formerly restricted data, so I don't think there will be much impact for the DoE.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 24 2019 01:38 GMT
#29698
Pretty sure the sum total of uranium one evidence will be that bill Clinton received speaking fees from Russians contemporaneous with them having business before the state department. Probably not enough to prove anything. Republicans' lack of concern with the temporal proximity of financial benefits to trump and certain decisions demonstrates how serious they are about corruption.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 24 2019 01:39 GMT
#29699
On May 24 2019 10:30 Danglars wrote:
Finally we'll have the surveillance info. Barr was pretty quick with the giant Mueller report release, so hopefully he can carry this out with great speed too. Americans deserve answers on the surveillance campaign and actions of domestic spies.

Brennan, Comey, Clapper, and the other Obama-era agency heads are toast. But here’s my big prediction: Obama himself is going to be implicated in authorizing and directing the unlawful spying on Americans. The biggest winner here will be the ghost of Nixon, because Obama is going to supplant him as being the most abusive president in history.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 24 2019 01:44 GMT
#29700
Just the presidents son in law facilitating quid pro quo bribery. Nothing to be concerned about here.

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