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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1421

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
May 03 2019 00:10 GMT
#28401
--- Nuked ---
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 03 2019 00:23 GMT
#28402
On May 03 2019 09:10 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2019 08:58 xDaunt wrote:
On May 03 2019 08:51 JimmiC wrote:
On May 03 2019 08:37 xDaunt wrote:
Hah, as soon as I make the post above, look at what John Solomon just dropped:

The boomerang from the Democratic Party’s failed attempt to connect Donald Trump to Russia’s 2016 election meddling is picking up speed, and its flight path crosses right through Moscow’s pesky neighbor, Ukraine. That is where there is growing evidence a foreign power was asked, and in some cases tried, to help Hillary Clinton.

In its most detailed account yet, Ukraine’s embassy in Washington says a Democratic National Committee insider during the 2016 election solicited dirt on Donald Trump’s campaign chairman and even tried to enlist the country's president to help.

In written answers to questions, Ambassador Valeriy Chaly's office says DNC contractor Alexandra Chalupa sought information from the Ukrainian government on Paul Manafort’s dealings inside the country, in hopes of forcing the issue before Congress.

Chalupa later tried to arrange for Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to comment on Manafort’s Russian ties on a U.S. visit during the 2016 campaign, the ambassador said.

Chaly says that, at the time of the contacts in 2016, the embassy knew Chalupa primarily as a Ukrainian-American activist, and learned only later of her ties to the DNC. He says the embassy considered her requests an inappropriate solicitation of interference in the U.S. election.

“The Embassy got to know Ms. Chalupa because of her engagement with Ukrainian and other diasporas in Washington D.C., and not in her DNC capacity. We’ve learned about her DNC involvement later,” Chaly said in a statement issued by his embassy. “We were surprised to see Alexandra’s interest in Mr. Paul Manafort’s case. It was her own cause. The Embassy representatives unambiguously refused to get involved in any way, as we were convinced that this is a strictly U.S. domestic matter.

“All ideas floated by Alexandra were related to approaching a Member of Congress with a purpose to initiate hearings on Paul Manafort or letting an investigative journalist ask President Poroshenko a question about Mr. Manafort during his public talk in Washington, D.C.,” the ambassador explained.

Reached by phone last week, Chalupa said she was too busy to talk. She did not respond to email and phone messages seeking subsequent comment.

Chaly’s written answers mark the most direct acknowledgement by Ukraine’s government that an American tied to the Democratic Party sought the country’s help in the 2016 election, and they confirm the main points of a January 2017 story by Politico on Chalupa’s efforts.

In that story, the embassy was broadly quoted as denying interference in the election and suggested Chalupa’s main reason for contacting the ambassador’s office was to organize an event celebrating women leaders.

The fresh statement comes several months after a Ukrainian court ruled that the country’s National Anti-Corruption Bureau (NABU), closely aligned with the U.S. embassy in Kiev, and a parliamentarian named Serhiy Leshchenko wrongly interfered in the 2016 American election by releasing documents related to Manafort.

The acknowledgement by Kiev’s embassy, plus newly released testimony, suggests the Ukrainian efforts to influence the U.S. election had some intersections in Washington as well.

Nellie Ohr, wife of senior U.S. Justice Department official Bruce Ohr, acknowledged in congressional testimony that, while working for the Clinton-hired research firm Fusion GPS, she researched Trump and Manafort’s ties to Russia and learned Leshchenko, the Ukrainian lawmaker, was providing dirt to Fusion.

Fusion also paid British intelligence operative Christopher Steele, whose anti-Trump dossier the FBI used as primary evidence to support its request to spy on Trump campaign adviser Carter Page.

In addition, I wrote last month that the Obama White House invited Ukrainian law enforcement officials to a meeting in January 2016 as Trump rose in the polls on his improbable path to the presidency. The meeting led to U.S. requests to the Ukrainians to help investigate Manafort, setting in motion a series of events that led to the Ukrainians leaking the documents about Manafort in May 2016.

The DNC’s embassy contacts add a new dimension, though. Chalupa discussed in the 2017 Politico article about her efforts to dig up dirt on Trump and Manafort, including at the Ukrainian embassy.

FEC records show Chalupa’s firm, Chalupa & Associates, was paid $71,918 by the DNC during the 2016 election cycle.

Exactly how the Ukrainian embassy responded to Chalupa’s inquiries remains in dispute.

Chaly’s statement says the embassy rebuffed her requests for information: “No documents related to Trump campaign or any individuals involved in the campaign have been passed to Ms. Chalupa or the DNC neither from the Embassy nor via the Embassy. No documents exchange was even discussed.”

But Andrii Telizhenko, a former political officer who worked under Chaly from December 2015 through June 2016, told me he was instructed by the ambassador and his top deputy to meet with Chalupa in March 2016 and to gather whatever dirt Ukraine had in its government files about Trump and Manafort.

Telizhenko said that, when he was told by the embassy to arrange the meeting, both Chaly and the ambassador’s top deputy identified Chalupa “as someone working for the DNC and trying to get Clinton elected.”

Over lunch at a Washington restaurant, Chalupa told Telizhenko in stark terms what she hoped the Ukrainians could provide the DNC and the Clinton campaign, according to his account.

“She said the DNC wanted to collect evidence that Trump, his organization and Manafort were Russian assets, working to hurt the U.S. and working with Putin against the U.S. interests. She indicated if we could find the evidence they would introduce it in Congress in September and try to build a case that Trump should be removed from the ballot, from the election,” he recalled.

After the meeting, Telizhenko said he became concerned about the legality of using his country’s assets to help an American political party win an U.S. election. But he proceeded with his assignment.

Telizhenko said that, as he began his research, he discovered that Fusion GPS was nosing around Ukraine, seeking similar information, and he believed they, too, worked for the Democrats.


As a former aide inside the general prosecutor’s office in Kiev, Telizhenko used contacts with intelligence, police and prosecutors across the country to secure information connecting Russian figures to assistance on some of the Trump organization’s real estate deals overseas, including a tower in Toronto.

Telizhenko said he did not want to provide the intelligence he collected directly to Chalupa, and instead handed the materials to Chaly: “I told him what we were doing was illegal, that it was unethical doing this as diplomats.” He said the ambassador told him he would handle the matter and had opened a second channel back in Ukraine to continue finding dirt on Trump.

Telizhenko said he also was instructed by his bosses to meet with an American journalist researching Manafort’s ties to Ukraine.

About a month later, he said his relationship with the ambassador soured and, by June 2016, he was ordered to return to Ukraine. There, he reported his concerns about the embassy’s contacts with the Democrats to the former prosecutor general’s office and officials in the Poroshenko administration: “Everybody already knew what was going on and told me it had been approved at the highest levels.”

Telizhenko said he never was able to confirm whether the information he collected for Chalupa was delivered to her, the DNC or the Clinton campaign.

Chalupa, meanwhile, continued to build a case that Manafort and Trump were tied to Russia.

In April 2016, she attended an international symposium where she reported back to the DNC that she had met with 68 Ukrainian investigative journalists to talk about Manafort. She also wrote that she invited American reporter Michael Isikoff to speak with her. Isikoff wrote some of the seminal stories tying Manafort to Ukraine and Trump to Russia; he later wrote a book making a case for Russian collusion.


“A lot more coming down the pipe,” Chalupa wrote a top DNC official on May 3, 2016, recounting her effort to educate Ukrainian journalists and Isikoff about Manafort.

Then she added: “More offline tomorrow since there is a big Trump component you and Lauren need to be aware of that will hit in next few weeks and something I’m working on you should be aware of.”

Less than a month later, the “black ledger” identifying payments to Manafort was announced in Ukraine, forcing Manafort to resign as Trump’s campaign chairman and eventually face criminal prosecution for improper foreign lobbying.

DNC officials have suggested in the past that Chalupa’s efforts were personal, not officially on behalf of the DNC. But Chalupa’s May 2016 email clearly informed a senior DNC official that she was “digging into Manafort” and she suspected someone was trying to hack into her email account.


Chaly over the years has tried to portray his role as Ukraine’s ambassador in Washington as one of neutrality during the 2016 election. But in August 2016 he raised eyebrows in some diplomatic circles when he wrote an OpEd in The Hill skewering Trump for some of his comments on Russia. “Trump’s comments send wrong message to world,” Chaly’s article blared in the headline.

In his statement to me, Chaly said he wrote the article because he had been solicited for his views by The Hill’s opinion team.

Chaly’s office also acknowledged that a month after the OpEd, President Poroshenko met with then-candidate Clinton during a stop in New York. The office said the ambassador requested a similar meeting with Trump but it didn’t get organized.

Though Chaly and Telizhenko disagree on what Ukraine did after it got Chalupa’s request, they confirm that a paid contractor of the DNC solicited their government’s help to find dirt on Trump that could sway the 2016 election.

For a Democratic Party that spent more than two years building the now-disproven theory that Trump colluded with Russia to hijack the 2016 election, the tale of the Ukrainian embassy in Washington feels just like a speeding political boomerang.


Source.

There is so much here that I don't even know where to begin. If true, what Solomon is outlining is that Hillary and the DNC were conspiring -- potentially illegally -- with Ukrainian officials to get dirt on Trump and his people. Indeed, not only was there a conspiracy, but it seems like they actually followed through on it. Nothing Trump or his people were alleged to have done came even remotely close to this. This must be why Democrats are going apeshit. Their whole party is about to get slammed as being historically huge hypocrites.

So for all of you truthers on the Russia/Trump conspiracy nonsense, who wants to be the first to call for a special counsel to investigate Hillary and the DNC?


Me, there would be pretty hilarious (and extraordinarily disturbing) if Hilary was doing with Ukraine what we already know Trump did.

So I'll be arguing to arrest and charge Hilary and you will be arguing that what she did was not criminal.


There are some very big differences between what Trump was alleged to have done and what Hillary may have done. First and foremost, it looks like Hillary actually completed the conspiracy and acquired negative information. In Trump's case, we at most have allegations that Russians were offering information to his team, but that none of these offers was ultimately accepted. Second, and what will really get Hillary in trouble if it occurred, is the extent to which this acquired information was laundered through the FBI/DOJ to form the basis for investigating Trump. So stated another way, there's likely nothing inconsistent with defending Trump while supporting the investigation (and potentially prosecution) of Hillary.



Well until we actually have criminal proof of what Hillary did based on how you have reacted to all of the allegations and so on a trump I will expect you to think of her as completely exonerated as long as there isn't enough evidence to criminally charge. And you also think that should not testify or cooperate in anyway with the investigation.

If Hillary gets subpoenaed, she can always take the Fifth. However, she'll still need to produce whatever is asked of her subject to certain legal limitations.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
May 03 2019 00:37 GMT
#28403
--- Nuked ---
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4329 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-03 04:38:55
May 03 2019 01:57 GMT
#28404
First post Biden announcement polls are out,30 April.Interested to see if he can retain these numbers after a few debates.

Dem primary only.

CNN Biden +24
Quinnipac Biden +26
Morning Consult Biden +14
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
May 03 2019 03:21 GMT
#28405
I'd be wary of taking anything too seriously from the polls at this stage just because it's so early and there haven't been any formal primary debates. Before the initial debates happen, polls tend to be skewed quite a bit by name recognition, which is partly why we're seeing Biden and, to a smaller extent, Bernie do much better than the rest of the field.

It is interesting though, to see Buttigieg has went from not even registering in a lot of the polls to being consistently trending in third or fourth place. He's now passed Elizabeth Warren. I guess those media rounds he did the last few weeks did help him out a bit, though the initial excitement about him has seemed to wane a bit.

But yes, Biden will be a tough hill to climb for the other candidates.
"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States22988 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-03 03:38:15
May 03 2019 03:33 GMT
#28406
On May 03 2019 12:21 Ben... wrote:
I'd be wary of taking anything too seriously from the polls at this stage just because it's so early and there haven't been any formal primary debates. Before the initial debates happen, polls tend to be skewed quite a bit by name recognition, which is partly why we're seeing Biden and, to a smaller extent, Bernie do much better than the rest of the field.

It is interesting though, to see Buttigieg has went from not even registering in a lot of the polls to being consistently trending in third or fourth place. He's now passed Elizabeth Warren. I guess those media rounds he did the last few weeks did help him out a bit, though the initial excitement about him has seemed to wane a bit.

But yes, Biden will be a tough hill to climb for the other candidates.


Polling this early is largely useless other than establishing the current pecking order/tiers but this truism often skates over a categorical difference between Bernie and the rest of the candidates. He's the only one with a reliable network of supporters and volunteers in all 50 states (and abroad).

Everyone else is paying out the nose for organizers in various states. Buttigieg is a bit of an exception as capturing the "new cool kid in school" vibe after O'Rourke lost it (at least for the moment) has him over performing based on his exposure. Though I'm pretty sure nearly every candidate polling at 1% or better has gotten more airtime than Bernie did in his first quarter running.

Biden (so long as he holds more than 15%) ruins a lot of candidates outside chances by mathematically eliminating them from getting any delegates. So long as Biden stays above ~15% it means there's only 1 spot left to make to and through super Tuesday.

EDIT: Now I get the push for Warren among Black check marks (rich Black news media figures and 6-figure "organizers"). They need Warren to be the third because anyone else splits the vote in Bernie's favor.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15466 Posts
May 03 2019 04:13 GMT
#28407
Biden's numbers will plummet after the first debate
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11321 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-03 04:50:05
May 03 2019 04:39 GMT
#28408
I don't think so. Not based on debate performance anyways. If you mean because his numbers are artificially inflated as the newly joined candidate, then sure. But not if you mean because of the debate. I thought he did well against his Republican equals, but more importantly, I think all the way back in 08 he was really quite good. People were more into Obama's hope and change message, but I really liked Biden's tell it like it is approach. 'Joe's right' was the common refrain from the other contenders. He was my number one pick back then and I was pleased when he was tapped for VP.

What will cause him troubles is if people have decided they don't want an establishment Democrat because he is that through and through. Debates aren't his weak point, it's on the campaign trail where he is walking gaff machine.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4329 Posts
May 03 2019 05:03 GMT
#28409
On May 03 2019 13:13 Mohdoo wrote:
Biden's numbers will plummet after the first debate

That only really depends on how the media reports on the debate.

Biden will easily have the most establishment donations so wouldn’t surprise me to see him treated well by the media.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7857 Posts
May 03 2019 06:29 GMT
#28410
On May 03 2019 14:03 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2019 13:13 Mohdoo wrote:
Biden's numbers will plummet after the first debate

That only really depends on how the media reports on the debate.

Biden will easily have the most establishment donations so wouldn’t surprise me to see him treated well by the media.

What do you call an “establishment donation”?

Btw, I think if we could define very clearly what establishment means, this discussion would benefit enormously.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Neneu
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway492 Posts
May 03 2019 07:27 GMT
#28411
On May 03 2019 05:41 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2019 04:49 KwarK wrote:
On May 03 2019 04:17 xDaunt wrote:
On May 03 2019 04:03 Neneu wrote:
On May 03 2019 03:54 xDaunt wrote:
There's a difference between simply lying to Congress and being intentionally set up and manipulated into lying before Congress. In the case of the former, I fully expect perjurers to be prosecuted in accordance with the law and have no problem with such prosecution. I do, however, I have a big problem with the latter. It's never a good thing for government officials to try entrapping people into committing crimes that they otherwise would not commit. This is what the Democrats tried with Barr.


You mean like how Bill Clinton was framed even though he did not lie against the agreed definition of sexual relation? That is a republican move.

First, that was more than twenty years ago. Virtually none of the republicans involved then are involved now. Second, it wasn't framing anyway. Bill gave a dishonest answer to a direct question regarding something that he had done. There was no set up.

They provided him a definition that excluded blowjobs, then asked him if he'd done anything that met that definition.
Also no, Gingrich was the architect of that and he's still going strong.


I don't believe that this is correct. He was asked a very broad definition and he monkeyed around with his answer. That's what got him into trouble. Keep in mind that his trouble went beyond Congress and the impeachment hearing, but also included the federal court in Arkansas who subsequently found him in contempt of court. There's a very good reason why Clinton was disbarred after all of this.


Is that what you say to your clients? He lawyered around that question. Still was not lying. I would love to hear your comparison your comparison of the troubles of Bill Clinton to the troubles of Donald Trump. I am especially interested in the witness tampering.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-03 13:00:02
May 03 2019 12:58 GMT
#28412
On May 03 2019 16:27 Neneu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2019 05:41 xDaunt wrote:
On May 03 2019 04:49 KwarK wrote:
On May 03 2019 04:17 xDaunt wrote:
On May 03 2019 04:03 Neneu wrote:
On May 03 2019 03:54 xDaunt wrote:
There's a difference between simply lying to Congress and being intentionally set up and manipulated into lying before Congress. In the case of the former, I fully expect perjurers to be prosecuted in accordance with the law and have no problem with such prosecution. I do, however, I have a big problem with the latter. It's never a good thing for government officials to try entrapping people into committing crimes that they otherwise would not commit. This is what the Democrats tried with Barr.


You mean like how Bill Clinton was framed even though he did not lie against the agreed definition of sexual relation? That is a republican move.

First, that was more than twenty years ago. Virtually none of the republicans involved then are involved now. Second, it wasn't framing anyway. Bill gave a dishonest answer to a direct question regarding something that he had done. There was no set up.

They provided him a definition that excluded blowjobs, then asked him if he'd done anything that met that definition.
Also no, Gingrich was the architect of that and he's still going strong.


I don't believe that this is correct. He was asked a very broad definition and he monkeyed around with his answer. That's what got him into trouble. Keep in mind that his trouble went beyond Congress and the impeachment hearing, but also included the federal court in Arkansas who subsequently found him in contempt of court. There's a very good reason why Clinton was disbarred after all of this.


Is that what you say to your clients?

Yep, and when I really get worked up, I've been known to drop a "gosh darnit" every now and then.

He lawyered around that question. Still was not lying.


You don't get sanctioned by a court and disbarred for lawyering. He made fundamental misrepresentations while under oath. Yeah, I get that he thought that he was being clever, but he really wasn't. And what he did was particularly egregious for an attorney to do.

I would love to hear your comparison your comparison of the troubles of Bill Clinton to the troubles of Donald Trump. I am especially interested in the witness tampering.


I'd have to go back and look everything that Clinton did. However, based upon my current understanding of the respective cases, I'd say that the best way to compare the two is that while Trump may have committed a thought crime, Clinton committed an actual crime. I have no doubt that Trump wanted very badly to get rid of Mueller and all of this Russia investigation nonsense as it pertained to him. But at the end of the day, he didn't do anything that materially affected either a court proceeding or a criminal investigation (and this is before we get into the issue of the propriety of his actions as the president from an executive discretion standpoint). Hell, Trump turned McGahn loose to go testify for 30+ hours. In stark contrast, Clinton actually did tamper with witnesses in cases and -- even if not technically perjury -- made statements under oath that gave rise to colorable charges against him. Ken Starr had it out for Clinton just as much as Mueller had it out for Trump. In contrast with Mueller, Starr actually had sufficient evidence to conclude that Clinton committed crimes and concluded as such in his report. Mueller didn't.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8960 Posts
May 03 2019 13:42 GMT
#28413
In not sure I buy the "Mueller wanted to take trump down" argument. He could have but didn't. So that line of reasoning should be put to rest.
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
May 03 2019 13:46 GMT
#28414
On May 03 2019 22:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
In not sure I buy the "Mueller wanted to take trump down" argument. He could have but didn't. So that line of reasoning should be put to rest.


The deep state is all powerful and must be stopped, but never seems to win anything.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 03 2019 13:52 GMT
#28415
On May 03 2019 22:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
In not sure I buy the "Mueller wanted to take trump down" argument. He could have but didn't. So that line of reasoning should be put to rest.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this for the reasons that I have discussed ad nauseum.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 03 2019 14:09 GMT
#28416
On May 03 2019 22:46 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2019 22:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
In not sure I buy the "Mueller wanted to take trump down" argument. He could have but didn't. So that line of reasoning should be put to rest.


The deep state is all powerful and must be stopped, but never seems to win anything.

Law enforce must be respected and their work is completely above board, except when they investigate the Republicans or don’t bring criminal charges against presidential candidates.

Really, we should just move to the FBI picking the candidates for each party and save everyone a lot of time.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-03 14:09:57
May 03 2019 14:09 GMT
#28417
On May 03 2019 22:52 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2019 22:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
In not sure I buy the "Mueller wanted to take trump down" argument. He could have but didn't. So that line of reasoning should be put to rest.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this for the reasons that I have discussed ad nauseum.


You both said that Mueller wrote a hit piece to hurt Trump and that he could have made a call on obstruction. If he was really out to get Trump, though, he did a piss poor job of it because the door was open to recommend an indictment yet he choose not to. Unless you think not making a recommendation, thus giving Trump cover, is somehow worse for Trump than the alternative, or Mueller is incompetent, then your two sentiments dont mesh.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 03 2019 14:51 GMT
#28418
Kimberly Strassel had a good wrap-up in the Wall Street Journal on Barr's accusers and what it means. It's a tale of frustration of goals from the Mueller investigation, and how exposed many powerful people are to the Barr & Horowitz investigations. If it was just inquiries into the start of the investigation, that wouldn't be so bad. Most of the likely top figures responsible have been fired or resigned under a cloud. It's also the criminal leaks, FISA warrant, dossier (as possible Russian disinformation). I also hadn't caught on that at least one journalist has started in on Mr. Horowitz.

The only thing uglier than an angry Washington is a fearful Washington. And fear is what’s driving this week’s blitzkrieg of Attorney General William Barr.

Mr. Barr tolerantly sat through hours of Democratic insults at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing Wednesday. His reward for his patience was to be labeled, in the space of a news cycle, a lawbreaking, dishonest, obstructing hack. Speaker Nancy Pelosi publicly accused Mr. Barr of lying to Congress, which, she added, is “considered a crime.” House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler said he will move to hold Mr. Barr in contempt unless the attorney general acquiesces to the unprecedented demand that he submit to cross-examination by committee staff attorneys. James Comey, former director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, lamented that Donald Trump had “eaten” Mr. Barr’s “soul.” Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren demands the attorney general resign. California Rep. Eric Swalwell wants him impeached.

These attacks aren’t about special counsel Robert Mueller, his report or even the surreal debate over Mr. Barr’s first letter describing the report. The attorney general delivered the transparency Democrats demanded: He quickly released a lightly redacted report, which portrayed the president in a negative light. What do Democrats have to object to?

Some of this is frustration. Democrats foolishly invested two years of political capital in the idea that Mr. Mueller would prove President Trump had colluded with Russia, and Mr. Mueller left them empty-handed. Some of it is personal. Democrats resent that Mr. Barr won’t cower or apologize for doing his job. Some is bitterness that Mr. Barr is performing like a real attorney general, making the call against obstruction-of-justice charges rather than sitting back and letting Democrats have their fun with Mr. Mueller’s obstruction innuendo.

But most of it is likely fear. Mr. Barr made real news in that Senate hearing, and while the press didn’t notice, Democrats did. The attorney general said he’d already assigned people at the Justice Department to assist his investigation of the origins of the Trump-Russia probe. He said his review would be far-reaching—that he was obtaining details from congressional investigations, from the ongoing probe by the department’s inspector general, Michael Horowitz, and even from Mr. Mueller’s work. Mr. Barr said the investigation wouldn’t focus only on the fall 2016 justifications for secret surveillance warrants against Trump team members but would go back months earlier.


He also said he’d focus on the infamous “dossier” concocted by opposition-research firm Fusion GPS and British former spy Christopher Steele, on which the FBI relied so heavily in its probe. Mr. Barr acknowledged his concern that the dossier itself could be Russian disinformation, a possibility he described as not “entirely speculative.” He also revealed that the department has “multiple criminal leak investigations under way” into the disclosure of classified details about the Trump-Russia investigation.

Do not underestimate how many powerful people in Washington have something to lose from Mr. Barr’s probe. Among them: Former and current leaders of the law-enforcement and intelligence communities. The Democratic Party pooh-bahs who paid a foreign national (Mr. Steele) to collect information from Russians and deliver it to the FBI. The government officials who misused their positions to target a presidential campaign. The leakers. The media. More than reputations are at risk. Revelations could lead to lawsuits, formal disciplinary actions, lost jobs, even criminal prosecution.

The attacks on Mr. Barr are first and foremost an effort to force him out, to prevent this information from coming to light until Democrats can retake the White House in 2020. As a fallback, the coordinated campaign works as a pre-emptive smear, diminishing the credibility of his ultimate findings by priming the public to view him as a partisan.

That’s why Mr. Barr isn’t alone in getting slimed. Natasha Bertrand at Politico last month penned a hit piece on the respected Mr. Horowitz. It’s clear the inspector general is asking the right questions. The Politico article acknowledges he’s homing in on Mr. Steele’s “credibility” and the dossier’s “veracity”—then goes on to provide a defense of Mr. Steele and his dossier, while quoting unnamed sources who deride the “quality” of the Horowitz probe, and (hilariously) claim the long-tenured inspector general is not “well-versed” in core Justice Department functions.

“We have to stop using the criminal-justice process as a political weapon,” Mr. Barr said Wednesday. The line didn’t get much notice, but that worthy goal increasingly looks to be a reason Mr. Barr accepted this unpleasant job. Stopping this abuse requires understanding how it started. The liberal establishment, including journalists friendly with it, doesn’t want that to happen, and so has made it a mission to destroy Mr. Barr. The attorney general seems to know what he’s up against, and remains undeterred. That’s the sort of steely will necessary to right the ship at the Justice Department and the FBI.

WSJ

One more word about specifically Mueller complaining about the press coverage. Why would a prosecutor, who has finished his report and whose staff is working with the DOJ to release it with minor redactions, be concerned about the things the press is getting wrong in a few short weeks? It's entirely reasonable for Barr to simply give a quick breakdown of the principal conclusions, instead of releasing parts in piecemeal fashion. If Mueller really wanted it to be quickly released after conclusion, he could've done more to indicate to Barr the (6e) redactions prior to submission. He simply couldn't stand a brief description of his failure to reach a conclusion on obstruction to deflateAndrew McCarthy:

An investigation into whether the president of the United States committed treason has devolved into a squabble over Attorney General Bill Barr’s brief letter saying that he didn’t.

We’ve gone from Donald Trump allegedly betraying the nation to Bill Barr allegedly betraying the nation, from potential Trump impeachment to potential Barr impeachment.

Barr’s offense, of course, is writing a quick letter summarizing the top-line conclusions of the Mueller report. Ever since, he’s been the focus of conspiracy theories and the target of smears.

The anti-Barr fury reached a new level with the news that Robert Mueller wrote him a letter complaining about the summary. Not since the Zimmermann telegram has a missive so exercised Washington, at least the segment of it that’s been in a perpetual lather of outrage since November 2016.

Let’s be clear: If Barr wanted to cover for Trump, he could have crimped the Mueller probe, sat on the report or redacted the report into meaninglessness. He did none of the above.

No one can claim his summary of findings was inaccurate. According to Barr, even Mueller conceded as much in a phone call. Mueller instead complained about the press coverage of the Barr summary, which isn’t, strictly speaking, the attorney general’s responsibility.

Barr’s conduct is defensible on its own terms. He wanted to get the basic verdict out because the investigation had so roiled our national life, especially the possibility that there was collusion with the Russians.

When Mueller came back to him with a request for release of the summaries from the report, Barr declined because he didn’t want to get into piecemeal releases when the full report would soon be available.

That’s what makes the controversy so nonsensical. Barr went further than required by the regulations to release the entirety of the report, letting everyone decide for themselves. What else was he supposed to do?

Of course, Barr’s summary letter inevitably lacked the narrative force and details of the 400-page report, but we know that . . . because he released the report.

The notion that Barr was deceptive in congressional testimony is similarly absurd. In an exchange with Senator Chris Van Hollen last month, he was asked if Mueller supported his “conclusion,” meaning his judgment that the president didn’t obstruct justice. Barr accurately said he didn’t know.

Representative Charlie Crist asked Barr if he knew what Mueller officials anonymously complaining about his letter were referring to. Barr said he didn’t (he presumably hadn’t talked to these anonymous officials), but volunteered that they probably wanted more information out.

Ultimately, the firestorm over Barr’s letter is a misdirection, and he’s a scapegoat. If Robert Mueller wanted to recommend charging Trump with obstruction of justice, he could have done so. Instead, he punted, and now he — or people around him — is upset that the Barr letter accurately stated his convoluted not-guilty/not-exonerated bottom line.

As for the Democrats, if they disagree with Barr’s conclusion that Trump didn’t commit a chargeable crime, it is fully within their power to impeach the president for abuse of power.

Democrats still want someone else to do their work for them. First, they wanted Mueller to blow Trump out of the water, and now they want Barr to adopt a frankly adversarial posture toward the president.

Barr is not the one distorting procedure or norms here. It’s the Mueller team that declined to make a call on whether Trump had committed a crime or not (the job we ordinarily ask prosecutors to do), yet catalogued his conduct in a quasi-indictment written for public consumption (which prosecutors aren’t supposed to do) and, now we know, cared very much about the media narrative around its report (a public-relations or partisan question, not a legal one).

That Barr and his letter are the focus of such political and media ire is a symptom of the lunacy of this era, rather than anything rotten in his Department of Justice.

National Review

I haven't seen a single Democratic candidate other than Tulsi Gabbard staking out a MoveOn-style position on a concluded investigation. If the breathless leaks on Russia collusion during the investigation was puzzling, the big encirclement of Barr and the politics of fear & personal destruction is a step further.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 03 2019 14:53 GMT
#28419
On May 03 2019 23:09 On_Slaught wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2019 22:52 xDaunt wrote:
On May 03 2019 22:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
In not sure I buy the "Mueller wanted to take trump down" argument. He could have but didn't. So that line of reasoning should be put to rest.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this for the reasons that I have discussed ad nauseum.


You both said that Mueller wrote a hit piece to hurt Trump and that he could have made a call on obstruction. If he was really out to get Trump, though, he did a piss poor job of it because the door was open to recommend an indictment yet he choose not to. Unless you think not making a recommendation, thus giving Trump cover, is somehow worse for Trump than the alternative, or Mueller is incompetent, then your two sentiments dont mesh.


Of course my statements mesh. You have to separate the issues. The first issue is whether Mueller could conclude that Trump committed a crime under the OLC guidelines, regardless of the merits of the charge. What I have said on that point is that he could. The second issue is the quality of the merits of any charge that Mueller might bring. This is a separate and unrelated inquiry. Mueller clearly concludes in his report that there was no charge to bring with regards to the Russia conspiracy stuff in Volume 1. As to the Volume 2 stuff pertaining to obstruction, Mueller reached no conclusion. I think that the reason why he decided to reach no conclusion and take the tact that he did was because Mueller knew that the obstruction charges would not hold up on the merits. So rather than exonerate Trump by conclusively stating no charges would be brought for obstruction, Mueller cooked up this nonsense excuse about how the OLC guidelines prevented him from reaching a conclusion. This excuse then allowed Mueller to create a huge cloud over Trump that less-discerning people would interpret as Trump actually did obstruct justice. Stated another way, Mueller was playing politics with the intention of inflicting as much damage upon Trump as possible on the way out.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-03 15:08:22
May 03 2019 15:07 GMT
#28420
On May 03 2019 23:53 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2019 23:09 On_Slaught wrote:
On May 03 2019 22:52 xDaunt wrote:
On May 03 2019 22:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
In not sure I buy the "Mueller wanted to take trump down" argument. He could have but didn't. So that line of reasoning should be put to rest.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this for the reasons that I have discussed ad nauseum.


You both said that Mueller wrote a hit piece to hurt Trump and that he could have made a call on obstruction. If he was really out to get Trump, though, he did a piss poor job of it because the door was open to recommend an indictment yet he choose not to. Unless you think not making a recommendation, thus giving Trump cover, is somehow worse for Trump than the alternative, or Mueller is incompetent, then your two sentiments dont mesh.


Of course my statements mesh. You have to separate the issues. The first issue is whether Mueller could conclude that Trump committed a crime under the OLC guidelines, regardless of the merits of the charge. What I have said on that point is that he could. The second issue is the quality of the merits of any charge that Mueller might bring. This is a separate and unrelated inquiry. Mueller clearly concludes in his report that there was no charge to bring with regards to the Russia conspiracy stuff in Volume 1. As to the Volume 2 stuff pertaining to obstruction, Mueller reached no conclusion. I think that the reason why he decided to reach no conclusion and take the tact that he did was because Mueller knew that the obstruction charges would not hold up on the merits. So rather than exonerate Trump by conclusively stating no charges would be brought for obstruction, Mueller cooked up this nonsense excuse about how the OLC guidelines prevented him from reaching a conclusion. This excuse then allowed Mueller to create a huge cloud over Trump that less-discerning people would interpret as Trump actually did obstruct justice. Stated another way, Mueller was playing politics with the intention of inflicting as much damage upon Trump as possible on the way out.


If it's a hit job as you say, then Mueller wouldn't give a shit if the charges actually held up; just the indictment recommendation alone would be catastrophic for Trump. It's not like he would need to actually put up or shut up by putting Trump on trial himself. He would just leave it to Congress.

Also, the idea that Mueller was just using the un-indictable argument to avoid clearing Trump holds no water in light of the report literally saying "if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the president clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state."
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