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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On April 23 2019 23:05 Plansix wrote:
We cannot fire our way to better education and classrooms. Removing bad teachers is not a solution because we lack the good teachers to replace them with. As a recovering history teacher, I know a lot of talented people who entered the education industry with the best of intentions and left because they were not valued. The focus on firing bad teachers ignores that fact that education has a talent retention problem and seems to have its roots in going after teachers unions.
Aye, granted I’m going off here, which doesn’t have enough teaching jobs going and many folks I know have had to move to England or Scotland to get permanent gigs.
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On April 23 2019 22:51 Mohdoo wrote:Teachers need to not only relay information, but basically be mini-psychologists.
Almost full on psychologists really, especially in the younger classes. There's a reason you need more education the younger the pupils you want to teach (at least for most of the world. I have no idea how the US works in this regard).
On April 23 2019 23:00 Wombat_NI wrote:
In a way you don’t want it to be too lucrative necessarily, in that people who are good teachers tend to be intrinsically motivated to teach to some degree. I mean obviously I’m exaggerating but you don’t want the kinds of folks who go into finance for the money ending up in teaching
I disagree vehemently. Money is a great way to not only attract people who are better in their fields, but also create a bigger supply which makes it easier to get rid of/not hire the bad ones. ie: Jet fighter pilots are paid pretty well (and they get lucrative bonuses like "free" pilot license and flying hours, which sets you up for a pretty good job later in life. And let's be honest it's a pretty cool job), and as a result there are very few bad pilots out there because the amount of candidates to pick from is enormous.
I grew up in a rural area and have had my share of bad teachers. I can recount several times there was a move to get rid of some of the worse ones (including one semi-paedophile), that ended nowhere because A. it's difficult to get rid of someone working in the government, and B. there simply wasn't anyone to replace them. All they could do was to relocate them elsewhere, which ended up being to our small town because no one wanted to teach there voluntarily.
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From my perspective the educational system is fundamentally obsolete for anything but reproducing the systems of oppression people suggest an education can/will free you from.
Teachers are practically heroes that should at least make the league minimum and then we should have a system that lets them learn with their students rather than train their students to be obedient and reliable automatons imo.
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On April 23 2019 23:00 Wombat_NI wrote:
I don’t think what you pay them is all that important vs identifying and getting rid of bad teachers, or giving them the assistance to not be bad.
In a way you don’t want it to be too lucrative necessarily, in that people who are good teachers tend to be intrinsically motivated to teach to some degree. I mean obviously I’m exaggerating but you don’t want the kinds of folks who go into finance for the money ending up in teaching
But yes they should be paid more considering the importance of what they do. On basically every way of thinking about it from the moralistic to the ruthlessly pragmatic ‘we are dogs of the capitalist machine’, good teachers help you get better cogs.
On April 23 2019 23:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
Pay over here could be better, I have a lot of family who teach, both in Norn Iron and England.
Their chief gripe isn’t pay, obviously everyone would like to be paid more if it was an option, but it’s continuous changes to the curriculum that are based on political whims rather than good evidence-based tweaks informed by any expertise on how children optimally learn.
My thoughts exactly. Pay can attract better teachers. It can't remove bad ones, or retrain them. Kid's educations are not first priority.
I'd be interested to know what you've seen in political whims influencing education curriculums abroad, from the family you know teaching in NI & England.
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United Kingdom10026 Posts
The education system will never be fixed, not in my country, and certainly not in the US.
The political benefits of reforming it are too far down the line.
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Another thing that is very important with regards to teachers is that it is not all about money. (Well, it is, but not necessarily the money the teacher makes)
Teaching can be made a lot more effective, fun and rewarding by putting money into stuff that is not the teachers salary. Like having more teachers. There is a huge difference when trying to teach a group of 15 students when compared to a group of 30. Facilities are also very important. Stuff like good tools, and experiments (for science teachers) computers, tablets, system administration etc... can make the teacher far more effective at his job.
I think a lot of teachers would prefer halving their class size over doubling the money that they get. And yet, quite often things work exactly the other way around. If you pay the teacher more, you suddenly get the idea that it might be a good idea to just have a few more students in classes. This can escalate over time. It doesn't seem like a big change to just have 1 additional student in a class of 20. But if you then have an additional student in a class of 21 next year, and an additional student in a class of 22 the year after, then you very quickly reach classes that are hard and exhausting to teach simply due to the amount of pupils.
Money spent in education is usually worth it, but it is usually not immediately obvious that it is worth it. The "only" thing you get is better educated, smarter people leaving school. But that is 10 years after you spent that money, and not really something that you can easily provably attribute to that money. And spending less money doesn't have immediately disastrous effects either. Class rooms are just slightly less up to date, classes are slightly bigger. This makes it very easy to think about spending less money since it doesn't stop the system from working.
And there are always solutions that seem more "interesting" than spending money. Change the curriculum! Have a different concept! 12 years instead of 13! 13 years instead of 12! have a new curriculum! All stuff that is pretty cheap to do, doesn't really do anything, but seems like stuff is being done.
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The Biden collapse is beginning. New poll showing NH is basically a lock for Sanders (not unexpected) that means someone besides Bernie has to win Iowa or it's over before super Tuesday.
A new University of New Hampshire poll released Monday shows Bernie Sanders widening his lead over the field of 2020 Democratic presidential contenders.
The Granite State Poll has the Vermont senator leading former Vice President Joe Biden by a double-digit margin, 30% to 18%, among New Hampshire voters. Right behind Biden at 15% is Pete Buttigieg, the mayor of South Bend, Indiana, who has been generating a lot of attention of late.
Sanders led Biden by just 4% in UNH's last poll in February. Biden has not formally announced a run, but is expected to do so as soon as this week.
Despite her proximity to New Hampshire, Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren received only 5% of the support of Democratic primary voters. She was followed by Kamala Harris at 4%, Cory Booker and Beto O'Rourke at 3% apiece and Amy Klobuchar, Andrew Yang and Tim Ryan at 2%.
www.nbcboston.com
Looks like Buttigieg might be the establishments last hope.
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On April 23 2019 23:36 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2019 22:57 Plansix wrote:
The pay for teachers is a joke these days and they should be paid equal to the most valuable professions on the market. A fully licensed plumber can pull down $80-100K a year if they are into the hustle. And education of our children is as valuable as running water. That is what teachers make here.
That is not what they are being paid in the US, like at all. And from my understanding of Canada, your teacher’s union is a political force to be reckoned with. Like NRA levels of political sway, but with a dope pension fund and the benefit of being all about good work conditions for teachers.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On April 23 2019 23:17 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2019 23:00 Wombat_NI wrote:
I don’t think what you pay them is all that important vs identifying and getting rid of bad teachers, or giving them the assistance to not be bad.
In a way you don’t want it to be too lucrative necessarily, in that people who are good teachers tend to be intrinsically motivated to teach to some degree. I mean obviously I’m exaggerating but you don’t want the kinds of folks who go into finance for the money ending up in teaching
But yes they should be paid more considering the importance of what they do. On basically every way of thinking about it from the moralistic to the ruthlessly pragmatic ‘we are dogs of the capitalist machine’, good teachers help you get better cogs. Show nested quote +On April 23 2019 23:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
Pay over here could be better, I have a lot of family who teach, both in Norn Iron and England.
Their chief gripe isn’t pay, obviously everyone would like to be paid more if it was an option, but it’s continuous changes to the curriculum that are based on political whims rather than good evidence-based tweaks informed by any expertise on how children optimally learn. My thoughts exactly. Pay can attract better teachers. It can't remove bad ones, or retrain them. Kid's educations are not first priority. I'd be interested to know what you've seen in political whims influencing education curriculums abroad, from the family you know teaching in NI & England.
It basically bounces between moving to more continuous assessment, back to being more exam focused and back again depending if Labour or the Conservatives are in.
I mean I’m broad brushing but basically it’s not just that changes are always bad, it’s that they’re continually being changed, nothing is left to settle and a lot of the changes being made are purely political signalling rather than being good changes.
Then theirs individual changes to curriculums in specific subjects, to the detriment of education IMO. So our English curriculum lost socially interesting books because apparently we needed more British authors. I can’t remember off hand 100% what books were swapped out, I think to Kill a Mockingbird was one, and they weren’t really replaced with stuff of equivalent social value IMO (and a lot of people’s
Meanwhile all evidence I’ve ever seen shows people, not just children learn better in short chunks with frequent short breaks, but we don’t make changes like those part of these ‘reforms’. Or deal with the problem of expanding class sizes.
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On April 23 2019 23:41 GreenHorizons wrote:The Biden collapse is beginning. New poll showing NH is basically a lock for Sanders (not unexpected) that means someone besides Bernie has to win Iowa or it's over before super Tuesday. Show nested quote +A new University of New Hampshire poll released Monday shows Bernie Sanders widening his lead over the field of 2020 Democratic presidential contenders.
The Granite State Poll has the Vermont senator leading former Vice President Joe Biden by a double-digit margin, 30% to 18%, among New Hampshire voters. Right behind Biden at 15% is Pete Buttigieg, the mayor of South Bend, Indiana, who has been generating a lot of attention of late.
Sanders led Biden by just 4% in UNH's last poll in February. Biden has not formally announced a run, but is expected to do so as soon as this week.
Despite her proximity to New Hampshire, Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren received only 5% of the support of Democratic primary voters. She was followed by Kamala Harris at 4%, Cory Booker and Beto O'Rourke at 3% apiece and Amy Klobuchar, Andrew Yang and Tim Ryan at 2%. www.nbcboston.comLooks like Buttigieg might be the establishments last hope. Good to see your calling the primary a year before it happens.
Feels more then a little premature.
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On April 23 2019 23:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2019 23:41 GreenHorizons wrote:The Biden collapse is beginning. New poll showing NH is basically a lock for Sanders (not unexpected) that means someone besides Bernie has to win Iowa or it's over before super Tuesday. A new University of New Hampshire poll released Monday shows Bernie Sanders widening his lead over the field of 2020 Democratic presidential contenders.
The Granite State Poll has the Vermont senator leading former Vice President Joe Biden by a double-digit margin, 30% to 18%, among New Hampshire voters. Right behind Biden at 15% is Pete Buttigieg, the mayor of South Bend, Indiana, who has been generating a lot of attention of late.
Sanders led Biden by just 4% in UNH's last poll in February. Biden has not formally announced a run, but is expected to do so as soon as this week.
Despite her proximity to New Hampshire, Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren received only 5% of the support of Democratic primary voters. She was followed by Kamala Harris at 4%, Cory Booker and Beto O'Rourke at 3% apiece and Amy Klobuchar, Andrew Yang and Tim Ryan at 2%. www.nbcboston.comLooks like Buttigieg might be the establishments last hope. Good to see your calling the primary a year before it happens. Feels more then a little premature.
Not really, the media called it for Hillary about this far into the campaign. Bernie was supposed to be another Ron Paul. Also Trump was definitely going to lose and only statistical illiterates would believe otherwise.
I don't think I'm going to be nearly as wrong as the people who believed that stuff.
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On April 23 2019 23:08 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2019 23:05 Plansix wrote:
We cannot fire our way to better education and classrooms. Removing bad teachers is not a solution because we lack the good teachers to replace them with. As a recovering history teacher, I know a lot of talented people who entered the education industry with the best of intentions and left because they were not valued. The focus on firing bad teachers ignores that fact that education has a talent retention problem and seems to have its roots in going after teachers unions. Aye, granted I’m going off here, which doesn’t have enough teaching jobs going and many folks I know have had to move to England or Scotland to get permanent gigs.
The problem in the US is that we don’t pay teachers enough to survive in the areas they live in and the job is known to be a hassle. We have things like the head coach of the football teach teaching history because they cannot find a history teacher. That sort of stuff.
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On April 24 2019 00:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2019 23:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 23 2019 23:41 GreenHorizons wrote:The Biden collapse is beginning. New poll showing NH is basically a lock for Sanders (not unexpected) that means someone besides Bernie has to win Iowa or it's over before super Tuesday. A new University of New Hampshire poll released Monday shows Bernie Sanders widening his lead over the field of 2020 Democratic presidential contenders.
The Granite State Poll has the Vermont senator leading former Vice President Joe Biden by a double-digit margin, 30% to 18%, among New Hampshire voters. Right behind Biden at 15% is Pete Buttigieg, the mayor of South Bend, Indiana, who has been generating a lot of attention of late.
Sanders led Biden by just 4% in UNH's last poll in February. Biden has not formally announced a run, but is expected to do so as soon as this week.
Despite her proximity to New Hampshire, Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren received only 5% of the support of Democratic primary voters. She was followed by Kamala Harris at 4%, Cory Booker and Beto O'Rourke at 3% apiece and Amy Klobuchar, Andrew Yang and Tim Ryan at 2%. www.nbcboston.comLooks like Buttigieg might be the establishments last hope. Good to see your calling the primary a year before it happens. Feels more then a little premature. Not really, the media called it for Hillary about this far into the campaign. Bernie was supposed to be another Ron Paul. Also Trump was definitely going to lose and only statistical illiterates would believe otherwise. I don't think I'm going to be nearly as wrong as the people who believed that stuff.
this sounds like an argument in support of his point tbh
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On April 23 2019 22:54 JimmiC wrote:
Part of it is supply and demand. And here teachers make great money, habe great benifits and holidays. My wife is a teacher and very happy with her pay. She just wants reasonable class sizes and assistants when she has severe behavior children.
It isn't really supply and demand, though. There is a huge shortage of secondary school teachers in Holland (not sure on primary school) and here in Spain I heard there's a huge shortage of math teachers at least. Yet the pay is still lower than doing a job requiring similar education level in industry.
That said, the secondary conditions tend to be exceedingly good, so salary being lower might not be the end of the world.
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On April 23 2019 23:17 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2019 23:00 Wombat_NI wrote:
I don’t think what you pay them is all that important vs identifying and getting rid of bad teachers, or giving them the assistance to not be bad.
In a way you don’t want it to be too lucrative necessarily, in that people who are good teachers tend to be intrinsically motivated to teach to some degree. I mean obviously I’m exaggerating but you don’t want the kinds of folks who go into finance for the money ending up in teaching
But yes they should be paid more considering the importance of what they do. On basically every way of thinking about it from the moralistic to the ruthlessly pragmatic ‘we are dogs of the capitalist machine’, good teachers help you get better cogs. Show nested quote +On April 23 2019 23:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
Pay over here could be better, I have a lot of family who teach, both in Norn Iron and England.
Their chief gripe isn’t pay, obviously everyone would like to be paid more if it was an option, but it’s continuous changes to the curriculum that are based on political whims rather than good evidence-based tweaks informed by any expertise on how children optimally learn. My thoughts exactly. Pay can attract better teachers. It can't remove bad ones, or retrain them. Kid's educations are not first priority. I'd be interested to know what you've seen in political whims influencing education curriculums abroad, from the family you know teaching in NI & England.
You're right that paying teachers more doesn't remove the existing bad ones, but the existing bad ones is a temporary problem. If we suddenly start hiring extremely good teachers, our average teacher quality will only go up with time. 50 years later, all the previous bad teachers have already retired.
In my current position, there is a reason 95% of my coworkers are really good at their jobs. It is very difficult to get a job where I work because we pay a lot and have great benefits. As a result, there are quite a few applicants, so we have the luxury of only accepting great people. If being a teacher meant really good pay and great benefits, I'd totally be a teacher. I'm a really good tutor and a great lecturer. There are other people I know in the same boat.
"Oh I'd love to be a teacher, but I also want to be at least somewhat respected and be able to afford my mortgage", so that's where it stops. Sure, we end up overpaying shitty teachers for a little bit. But 500 years from now, we would look back at the fact that we haven't been overpaying shitty teachers for the past 450 years. We shouldn't be discouraged by momentarily overpaying bad people when we have so much data showing high pay attracts great people. We could have a really good fleet of teachers over 10-20 years if we drastically increased pay to be competitive with industries we are trying to take people from.
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On April 24 2019 00:03 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2019 00:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 23 2019 23:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 23 2019 23:41 GreenHorizons wrote:The Biden collapse is beginning. New poll showing NH is basically a lock for Sanders (not unexpected) that means someone besides Bernie has to win Iowa or it's over before super Tuesday. A new University of New Hampshire poll released Monday shows Bernie Sanders widening his lead over the field of 2020 Democratic presidential contenders.
The Granite State Poll has the Vermont senator leading former Vice President Joe Biden by a double-digit margin, 30% to 18%, among New Hampshire voters. Right behind Biden at 15% is Pete Buttigieg, the mayor of South Bend, Indiana, who has been generating a lot of attention of late.
Sanders led Biden by just 4% in UNH's last poll in February. Biden has not formally announced a run, but is expected to do so as soon as this week.
Despite her proximity to New Hampshire, Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren received only 5% of the support of Democratic primary voters. She was followed by Kamala Harris at 4%, Cory Booker and Beto O'Rourke at 3% apiece and Amy Klobuchar, Andrew Yang and Tim Ryan at 2%. www.nbcboston.comLooks like Buttigieg might be the establishments last hope. Good to see your calling the primary a year before it happens. Feels more then a little premature. Not really, the media called it for Hillary about this far into the campaign. Bernie was supposed to be another Ron Paul. Also Trump was definitely going to lose and only statistical illiterates would believe otherwise. I don't think I'm going to be nearly as wrong as the people who believed that stuff. this sounds like an argument in support of his point tbh
It was at the same time I suggested that Bernie would do better than anyone was expecting and I provided an argument. I'd love to see that for someone other than Bernie that isn't "anything can happen".
It's clear that most people regurgitate opinions they hear from talking heads they like or that say what they like. Most people haven't actually dug into why Bernie is such a prohibitive front runner at this point and don't know because it doesn't get the kind of attention in media all the alternatives to Bernie get.
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On April 24 2019 00:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2019 00:03 brian wrote:On April 24 2019 00:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 23 2019 23:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 23 2019 23:41 GreenHorizons wrote:The Biden collapse is beginning. New poll showing NH is basically a lock for Sanders (not unexpected) that means someone besides Bernie has to win Iowa or it's over before super Tuesday. A new University of New Hampshire poll released Monday shows Bernie Sanders widening his lead over the field of 2020 Democratic presidential contenders.
The Granite State Poll has the Vermont senator leading former Vice President Joe Biden by a double-digit margin, 30% to 18%, among New Hampshire voters. Right behind Biden at 15% is Pete Buttigieg, the mayor of South Bend, Indiana, who has been generating a lot of attention of late.
Sanders led Biden by just 4% in UNH's last poll in February. Biden has not formally announced a run, but is expected to do so as soon as this week.
Despite her proximity to New Hampshire, Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren received only 5% of the support of Democratic primary voters. She was followed by Kamala Harris at 4%, Cory Booker and Beto O'Rourke at 3% apiece and Amy Klobuchar, Andrew Yang and Tim Ryan at 2%. www.nbcboston.comLooks like Buttigieg might be the establishments last hope. Good to see your calling the primary a year before it happens. Feels more then a little premature. Not really, the media called it for Hillary about this far into the campaign. Bernie was supposed to be another Ron Paul. Also Trump was definitely going to lose and only statistical illiterates would believe otherwise. I don't think I'm going to be nearly as wrong as the people who believed that stuff. this sounds like an argument in support of his point tbh It was at the same time I suggested that Bernie would do better than anyone was expecting and I provided an argument. I'd love to see that for someone other than Bernie that isn't "anything can happen". It's clear that most people regurgitate opinions they hear from talking heads they like or that say what they like. Most people haven't actually dug into why Bernie is such a prohibitive front runner at this point and don't know because it doesn't get the kind of attention in media all the alternatives to Bernie get.
Foreigner here, but I hear absolutely nothing about anybody other than Bernie or Biden. You had a point last election that the press around the primary was heavily slanted towards Hillary, but this time if media is supposed to be proportional to the number of candidates, Bernie is severely hogging time in the media from where I'm standing. Of course, I don't ingest US cable tv, so I know very little about the general US mediascape.
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I actually saw an article about butigieg (sp), but in general media over here is still very silent.
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Teachers absolutely should get paid a lot more (attracting higher quality ones as a side benefit), but one problem is paying for it. Unlike lawyers, engineers, doctors, accountants, and the like, the vast majority of teachers are public employees (pre college). Few are the municipalities that can pay thousands of teachers an engineers wage, especially in poor neighborhoods where they are most needed.
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EPT
