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On February 04 2019 12:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2019 12:44 mierin wrote:On February 04 2019 12:25 Plansix wrote:On February 04 2019 12:11 mierin wrote:On February 04 2019 07:49 Plansix wrote:
Man, we having this discussion again. Using the N-word all the time isn’t going to change history or stop racists from using it to insult black people. Nor is is going to change the fact that those racists have more power than blacks in the US, and have for all of history. We cannot collective will 200 years of history out of existence just so black face costumes can be acceptable as satire.
Do people not get that racist wear black face costumes and think it is hilarious that people get so upset about them? Do people want to be wearing the same costumes as legit racist? I don't understand how you can talk about the N word and people using it with more power than "blacks" in the US, yet some of the richest and most powerful people in America are black and use it with pride (rappers, athletes, etc). Is the word bad, or not? I'm not saying black face is acceptable--it clearly isn't. There's just a massive double standard going on here. The oppressed group can use the word that’s degrades them as much as they want, however that want. The m-word is bad, don’t use it. This isn’t complicated. This isn’t a double standard, it is just reality. We use different language around different people. I don’t drop f-bombs in front of my wife’s family. That isn’t a double standard, I just know they don’t like it. This isn't X, it's just reality is a very slippery slope type of argument. Is your wife's family fundamentally flawed for not accepting your use of the f-bomb? Are you a terrible person for using the "f-bomb" when not around your wife's family? The slippery slope is a fallacy. The rest of those questions are rhetorical.
Is there another word someone could share with me that is encouraged for one group to use, but not another? That's what I'm getting at.
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On February 04 2019 13:00 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2019 12:54 Plansix wrote:On February 04 2019 12:44 mierin wrote:On February 04 2019 12:25 Plansix wrote:On February 04 2019 12:11 mierin wrote:On February 04 2019 07:49 Plansix wrote:
Man, we having this discussion again. Using the N-word all the time isn’t going to change history or stop racists from using it to insult black people. Nor is is going to change the fact that those racists have more power than blacks in the US, and have for all of history. We cannot collective will 200 years of history out of existence just so black face costumes can be acceptable as satire.
Do people not get that racist wear black face costumes and think it is hilarious that people get so upset about them? Do people want to be wearing the same costumes as legit racist? I don't understand how you can talk about the N word and people using it with more power than "blacks" in the US, yet some of the richest and most powerful people in America are black and use it with pride (rappers, athletes, etc). Is the word bad, or not? I'm not saying black face is acceptable--it clearly isn't. There's just a massive double standard going on here. The oppressed group can use the word that’s degrades them as much as they want, however that want. The m-word is bad, don’t use it. This isn’t complicated. This isn’t a double standard, it is just reality. We use different language around different people. I don’t drop f-bombs in front of my wife’s family. That isn’t a double standard, I just know they don’t like it. This isn't X, it's just reality is a very slippery slope type of argument. Is your wife's family fundamentally flawed for not accepting your use of the f-bomb? Are you a terrible person for using the "f-bomb" when not around your wife's family? The slippery slope is a fallacy. The rest of those questions are rhetorical. Is there another word someone could share with me that is encouraged for one group to use, but not another? That's what I'm getting at.
Why do you care? Do you want to call black folks the n-word? Why does this matter?
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Yes, There are words that some people in LGBTQ+ communities use amongst themselves that I would frown on other groups using towards them. But why does it matter?
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On February 04 2019 13:00 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2019 12:54 Plansix wrote:On February 04 2019 12:44 mierin wrote:On February 04 2019 12:25 Plansix wrote:On February 04 2019 12:11 mierin wrote:On February 04 2019 07:49 Plansix wrote:
Man, we having this discussion again. Using the N-word all the time isn’t going to change history or stop racists from using it to insult black people. Nor is is going to change the fact that those racists have more power than blacks in the US, and have for all of history. We cannot collective will 200 years of history out of existence just so black face costumes can be acceptable as satire.
Do people not get that racist wear black face costumes and think it is hilarious that people get so upset about them? Do people want to be wearing the same costumes as legit racist? I don't understand how you can talk about the N word and people using it with more power than "blacks" in the US, yet some of the richest and most powerful people in America are black and use it with pride (rappers, athletes, etc). Is the word bad, or not? I'm not saying black face is acceptable--it clearly isn't. There's just a massive double standard going on here. The oppressed group can use the word that’s degrades them as much as they want, however that want. The m-word is bad, don’t use it. This isn’t complicated. This isn’t a double standard, it is just reality. We use different language around different people. I don’t drop f-bombs in front of my wife’s family. That isn’t a double standard, I just know they don’t like it. This isn't X, it's just reality is a very slippery slope type of argument. Is your wife's family fundamentally flawed for not accepting your use of the f-bomb? Are you a terrible person for using the "f-bomb" when not around your wife's family? The slippery slope is a fallacy. The rest of those questions are rhetorical. Is there another word someone could share with me that is encouraged for one group to use, but not another? That's what I'm getting at.
They aren't encouraged to use it lol. A large amount would frown on other black people using it as well. Context matters and with that word it changes dramatically on the person using it. Someone who is not black using it vs a black person using it totally changes the context.
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5930 Posts
There's a lot discussion about acceptable language within the black community, often in the context of music and the arts. It isn't just the n-word being discussed but also the nature of typically misogynistic words like bitch. mierin brings up athletes that use the word but there are more than a few, especially those with a huge interest in civil rights, are completely against the casual use of the word. I'm certain Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Isiah Thomas have both come out saying that black community should not be using those words because of their historical context.
The idea behind the use of slurs within minority groups are often related to a conscious or unconscious attempt to reclaim ownership and control over the usage of the word. There's a Korean woman who opened a restaurant named Yellow Fever who named it so for that sole purpose.
But while the black community is discussing the nature of the language they use, there's absolutely no reason for anyone of another race who hasn't lived in the same environment to feel the need to use the word. Like, what would compel someone of another race to feel the need to use the n-word?
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On February 04 2019 15:25 Womwomwom wrote:
There's a lot discussion about acceptable language within the black community, often in the context of music and the arts. It isn't just the n-word being discussed but also the nature of typically misogynistic words like bitch. mierin brings up athletes that use the word but there are more than a few, especially those with a huge interest in civil rights, are completely against the casual use of the word. I'm certain Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Isiah Thomas have both come out saying that black community should not be using those words because of their historical context.
The idea behind the use of slurs within minority groups are often related to a conscious or unconscious attempt to reclaim ownership and control over the usage of the word. There's a Korean woman who opened a restaurant named Yellow Fever who named it so for that sole purpose.
But while the black community is discussing the nature of the language they use, there's absolutely no reason for anyone of another race who hasn't lived in the same environment to feel the need to use the word. Like, what would compel someone of another race to feel the need to use the n-word?
When in a context where black people use it so as to fit in? Most people don't read long discussions on social cues but mimic the people around them. I personally wouldn't use it since I know about the discussions and so on but that does not mean everybody does.
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On February 04 2019 13:00 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2019 12:54 Plansix wrote:On February 04 2019 12:44 mierin wrote:On February 04 2019 12:25 Plansix wrote:On February 04 2019 12:11 mierin wrote:On February 04 2019 07:49 Plansix wrote:
Man, we having this discussion again. Using the N-word all the time isn’t going to change history or stop racists from using it to insult black people. Nor is is going to change the fact that those racists have more power than blacks in the US, and have for all of history. We cannot collective will 200 years of history out of existence just so black face costumes can be acceptable as satire.
Do people not get that racist wear black face costumes and think it is hilarious that people get so upset about them? Do people want to be wearing the same costumes as legit racist? I don't understand how you can talk about the N word and people using it with more power than "blacks" in the US, yet some of the richest and most powerful people in America are black and use it with pride (rappers, athletes, etc). Is the word bad, or not? I'm not saying black face is acceptable--it clearly isn't. There's just a massive double standard going on here. The oppressed group can use the word that’s degrades them as much as they want, however that want. The m-word is bad, don’t use it. This isn’t complicated. This isn’t a double standard, it is just reality. We use different language around different people. I don’t drop f-bombs in front of my wife’s family. That isn’t a double standard, I just know they don’t like it. This isn't X, it's just reality is a very slippery slope type of argument. Is your wife's family fundamentally flawed for not accepting your use of the f-bomb? Are you a terrible person for using the "f-bomb" when not around your wife's family? The slippery slope is a fallacy. The rest of those questions are rhetorical. Is there another word someone could share with me that is encouraged for one group to use, but not another? That's what I'm getting at.
it's generally that way with a lot of things. Just maybe not to that extreme degree.
Go back 10 years in time and me saying "hehe, I guess I'm kind of nerd" to someone else is something completly different than someone else pointing out "man, you're really a nerd". If it's from a friend I know to be a nerd like me it means something else than being told so from someone who clearly doesn't see it as something good.
Not trying to make an equivalence in any ways here and the thing I just mentioned is way less of an issue but it's a thing. Maybe a bit less so nowaday hence me saying 10 years ago but you get the idea.
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On February 04 2019 12:47 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2019 12:43 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 04 2019 12:11 mierin wrote:
Is the word bad, or not? Is this even a serious question? Words are communication, and dependant on usage and context. It's both bad, and not. I'm not saying black face is acceptable--it clearly isn't. There's just a massive double standard going on here. What's the double standard? I hope you're not just using the term to mean "some people can use the word and I can't". I don't want to use that word. Is there another word someone could share with me that is encouraged for one group to use, but not another? That's what I'm getting at.
'Faggot' has been somewhat reclaimed by the gay community. They'll use it around each other, but nobody else gets to.
Regardless, I don't get what it is that you find so confusing about this situation. Do you just not understand how language works or something?
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Times like this are when I wish GH was still able to post here.
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On February 04 2019 21:05 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2019 12:47 mierin wrote:On February 04 2019 12:43 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 04 2019 12:11 mierin wrote:
Is the word bad, or not? Is this even a serious question? Words are communication, and dependant on usage and context. It's both bad, and not. I'm not saying black face is acceptable--it clearly isn't. There's just a massive double standard going on here. What's the double standard? I hope you're not just using the term to mean "some people can use the word and I can't". I don't want to use that word. Is there another word someone could share with me that is encouraged for one group to use, but not another? That's what I'm getting at. 'Faggot' has been somewhat reclaimed by the gay community. They'll use it around each other, but nobody else gets to. Really? Admittedly I've never heard anyone say the word recently outside of gaming chat channels and the like.On February 04 2019 21:55 Gahlo wrote:
Times like this are when I wish GH was still able to post here. Why? So he can go get banned again?
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On February 04 2019 22:17 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2019 21:05 iamthedave wrote:On February 04 2019 12:47 mierin wrote:On February 04 2019 12:43 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 04 2019 12:11 mierin wrote:
Is the word bad, or not? Is this even a serious question? Words are communication, and dependant on usage and context. It's both bad, and not. I'm not saying black face is acceptable--it clearly isn't. There's just a massive double standard going on here. What's the double standard? I hope you're not just using the term to mean "some people can use the word and I can't". I don't want to use that word. Is there another word someone could share with me that is encouraged for one group to use, but not another? That's what I'm getting at. 'Faggot' has been somewhat reclaimed by the gay community. They'll use it around each other, but nobody else gets to. Really? Admittedly I've never heard anyone say the word recently outside of gaming chat channels and the like. Show nested quote +On February 04 2019 21:55 Gahlo wrote:
Times like this are when I wish GH was still able to post here. Why? So he can go get banned again?
Because none of us, afaik, has the experience of living as a black man in America and is(imo) therefore properly able to answer the question.
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On February 04 2019 22:44 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2019 22:17 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 04 2019 21:05 iamthedave wrote:On February 04 2019 12:47 mierin wrote:On February 04 2019 12:43 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 04 2019 12:11 mierin wrote:
Is the word bad, or not? Is this even a serious question? Words are communication, and dependant on usage and context. It's both bad, and not. I'm not saying black face is acceptable--it clearly isn't. There's just a massive double standard going on here. What's the double standard? I hope you're not just using the term to mean "some people can use the word and I can't". I don't want to use that word. Is there another word someone could share with me that is encouraged for one group to use, but not another? That's what I'm getting at. 'Faggot' has been somewhat reclaimed by the gay community. They'll use it around each other, but nobody else gets to. Really? Admittedly I've never heard anyone say the word recently outside of gaming chat channels and the like. On February 04 2019 21:55 Gahlo wrote:
Times like this are when I wish GH was still able to post here. Why? So he can go get banned again? Because none of us, afaik, has the experience of living as a black man in America and is(imo) therefore properly able to answer the question.
He is one interested person and could of course give good inputs. If you want a more unbiased and maybe wider opinion outside of his geographical area academic papers seem better to me.
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Why can black people use the N-word but other folks can’t? And if they can use the N-word, how can it be a bad word if they can use it and its not bad? Questions asked by people who don’t have a great grasp of language and how context matters.
Which GH and others have answered so many times it is sort of sad at this point. Not sad because people don’t understand. They kinda do, but ask the dumb questions to force people to answer them again. Its sort of sad we keep falling for it.
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What i don't get about this discussion is that the solution is pretty simple:
Don't use it, if you don't want to be seen as an asshole/racist/whatever.
There are some strange outcries sometimes that imho go overboard (Vigo Mortinson was the most recent high profile one iirc?).
I don't get how people still walk into this "issue", Its not hard and "but others do it" wasn't a good exscuse since before kindergarden.
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On February 05 2019 00:24 Velr wrote:
What i don't get about this discussion is that the solution is pretty simple:
Don't use it, if you don't want to be seen as an asshole/racist/whatever.
There are some strange outcries sometimes that imho go overboard (Vigo Mortinson was the most recent high profile one iirc?).
I don't get how people still walk into this "issue", Its not hard and "but others do it" wasn't a good exscuse since before kindergarden.
Ignoring the butchering of Viggo Mortensen's name, I agree. There is such a thing as educational purposes, and both Viggo and the Netflix guy both used the word in that category. You can't show porn at school either, but you can show a vagina in an educational video. Sure they could have used "The N word" instead and made the same point, but it's potatoes potatoes at that point.
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On February 05 2019 00:45 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2019 00:33 Excludos wrote:On February 05 2019 00:24 Velr wrote:
What i don't get about this discussion is that the solution is pretty simple:
Don't use it, if you don't want to be seen as an asshole/racist/whatever.
There are some strange outcries sometimes that imho go overboard (Vigo Mortinson was the most recent high profile one iirc?).
I don't get how people still walk into this "issue", Its not hard and "but others do it" wasn't a good exscuse since before kindergarden. Ignoring the butchering of Viggo Mortensen's name, I agree. There is such a thing as educational purposes, and both Viggo and the Netflix guy both used the word in that category. You can't show porn at school either, but you can show a vagina in an educational video. Sure they could have used "The N word" instead and made the same point, but it's potatoes potatoes at that point. I'm pretty sure this depends on the State.
Well that's just sad. I keep forgetting that some of the states are religious enough to actively regress in their education.
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Just listened to a podcast with David Frum where he talked about recently agreeing to debate Steve Bannon on the eve of the midterm elections. Interestingly, being a bit more pragmatic on the merit of debates, Frum openly states that he didn't debate Bannon to change anyone's mind. Or "win". He admits that his goal was the challenge Bannon's populist views on the eve of the midterms to say Bannon's populists start losing now. That Bannon and his kind have reached their high point and are now going to devote their entire political lives to putting them back down under a rock.
Now, I don't love David Frum, but he is this introspective view of politics that I find to be valuable to listen to. Specifically, his skill at focusing in on what makes a politician good and successful in contrast to their peers. His discussion on debate was interesting because its moves beyond churlish idea that all debate is good and goes to when it might be worth while to debate a bad faith actor like Bannon. But even in that discussion he avoid the declarative statements of merit and only speaks to his reasoning behind doing it.
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He doesn't want to change anyone's mind, so what's the point? What is the point of his goal of challenging Bannon's populist views on the eve of the midterms to say Bannon's populists start losing now? Since you are lauding him, what goal does this declaration acheive?
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EPT
