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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1061

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16097 Posts
January 24 2019 22:59 GMT
#21201
On January 25 2019 07:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2019 18:05 Wegandi wrote:
On January 24 2019 17:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On January 24 2019 14:32 Wegandi wrote:
On January 24 2019 07:28 JimmiC wrote:
It is good for socialism that Maduro is out, because he was not a socialist, he was a self serving dictator using socialism as a shield to distract his people from his theft. Him being out doesn't let people say "socialism" doesn't work look at Venezuela. It is much harder to say it doesn't work look at Norway.


You realize Norway is one of the more capitalistic countries on the planet, right?

https://www.heritage.org/index/country/norway

Compare to Venezuela, North Korea, Cuba, Brazil, etc. It also must be an odd quirk that socialism pretty regularly leads to authoritarian autocrats. I don't seem to remember a poor socialist leader with a country low on the corruption scale.

Well so we agree that very high, very orogressive taxation, universal healthcare, extremely high unemployment benefits and so on are not socialism and have nothing to do with Venezuela.

That’s good.


You just described the US. The people who say "I want Denmark or Norway, etc." are clueless.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/04/05/americas-taxes-are-the-most-progressive-in-the-world-its-government-is-among-the-least/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.170715bce56c

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2017/11/23/american-taxes-are-unusually-progressive-government-spending-is-not

The US has some of the most progressive taxes in the world, high unemployment benefits, a large welfare state, a large regulatory state, etc. Sure, the US does not have universal healthcare, but programs like Medicare/Medicaid/SCHIP are not far off and cost ridiculous amounts of money. So, please, spare me the B.S.

So, sure, let's be like Norway and lower our Corporate tax rates to their level - 25% (it's 35% in the US). I'm sure, you're for that, right? Or how about we de-regulate a lot of our industries (many EU countries have less regulatory burdens than the US). So who is really being disingenuous here?


You up for nationalizing oil/natural resources? That's a very significant part of Norway's success. (Another is investing these funds wisely rather than spending them and overheating economy.)

Also, while I can get behind that the US has more progressive taxation than Norway (at least in theory, not sure how it works out with loopholes, although Norway does have loopholes too), Norway has extremely strong labor unions that over the past several decades have ensured very 'progressive' wage-levels. (the US has a higher average salary than Norway, by like 10% (source,) yet a lower median income. A 20 year old working in mcdonalds makes $18/hour at entry level and this is one of the lowest paying jobs we have here also).

Claims that Norway is 'socialist' is wrong. We're a mixed economy for sure. But there are elements of socialism present in our country which is not present in the US, and some of these elements are pretty instrumental in explaining why it's such a good country to live in. And if you were to juxtapose the Norway and the US in a 'which country is more socialist or capitalist than the other' then there's no question the US looks more capitalist overall..


The US economy is also a mixed economy too, if it wasn't things like subsidies, and social security wouldn't be a thing.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-24 23:03:49
January 24 2019 23:01 GMT
#21202
On January 25 2019 00:58 RvB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2019 00:20 KwarK wrote:
On January 24 2019 18:05 Wegandi wrote:
So, sure, let's be like Norway and lower our Corporate tax rates to their level - 25% (it's 35% in the US). I'm sure, you're for that, right? Or how about we de-regulate a lot of our industries (many EU countries have less regulatory burdens than the US). So who is really being disingenuous here?

The EU has a single regulatory framework and it’s really quite amazing that you’re unaware of it. It’s a common market.

Individual nations within the EU can add to it within their borders but they cannot subtract from it.

Only for goods really. The services market is hardly a single market and most developed countries are largely based on services. There's also a large amount of influence nation states have in and outside the regulatory framework. There's a reason why for example the finance industry is largely based in London.

Here's a source for regulatory burden in the world. There are countries in the EU both better and worse than the US.

http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-index-2017-2018/competitiveness-rankings/#series=EOSQ048


That graph is kinda worthless considering it takes services into account, whereas Wegandi specified industrial regulations.

How little industrial regulation there is in the US is shown by the fact that you could do pretty much anything, and someone would need to prove that it's harmful or has killed people already (food supplements come to mind).

This can't happen in the EU, where a new product has to prove that it's safe before it hits the market (precautionary principle). Not literally the other way around where a product hits the market and others have to prove that it's harmful.

In fact, things like potassium bromate are still entirely fine to use in the US (sorry, the amount you can use is "limited"), whereas it's flatout banned in the EU. Hell, even China banned it. Doublehell, Subway announced it wouldn't use it, even though the FDA approved it.

This here breaks it down best.

Reliance on voluntary measures is a hallmark of the U.S. approach to chemical regulation. In many cases, when it comes to eliminating toxic chemicals from U.S. consumer products, manufacturers’ and retailers’ own policies — often driven by consumer demand or by regulations outside the U.S. or at the state and local level — are moving faster than U.S. federal policy. On June 3, the California-based health-care company Kaiser Permanente announced that all its new furniture purchases — worth $30 million annually — would be free of chemical flame retardants. The same day, Panera Bread announced that the food served in its 1,800 bakery-cafés would be free of artificial additives by the end of 2016. Any number of large manufacturing companies and retailers — Nike, Walmart, Target, Walgreens, Apple and HP to name but a few — have policies barring chemicals from their products that U.S. federal law does not restrict.



We're talking companies that go out of their way (and lose money on it) to prevent using approved chemicals. Just think about it for a second and you understand how incredible that is.
On track to MA1950A.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28706 Posts
January 24 2019 23:26 GMT
#21203
On January 25 2019 07:59 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2019 07:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:
On January 24 2019 18:05 Wegandi wrote:
On January 24 2019 17:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On January 24 2019 14:32 Wegandi wrote:
On January 24 2019 07:28 JimmiC wrote:
It is good for socialism that Maduro is out, because he was not a socialist, he was a self serving dictator using socialism as a shield to distract his people from his theft. Him being out doesn't let people say "socialism" doesn't work look at Venezuela. It is much harder to say it doesn't work look at Norway.


You realize Norway is one of the more capitalistic countries on the planet, right?

https://www.heritage.org/index/country/norway

Compare to Venezuela, North Korea, Cuba, Brazil, etc. It also must be an odd quirk that socialism pretty regularly leads to authoritarian autocrats. I don't seem to remember a poor socialist leader with a country low on the corruption scale.

Well so we agree that very high, very orogressive taxation, universal healthcare, extremely high unemployment benefits and so on are not socialism and have nothing to do with Venezuela.

That’s good.


You just described the US. The people who say "I want Denmark or Norway, etc." are clueless.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/04/05/americas-taxes-are-the-most-progressive-in-the-world-its-government-is-among-the-least/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.170715bce56c

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2017/11/23/american-taxes-are-unusually-progressive-government-spending-is-not

The US has some of the most progressive taxes in the world, high unemployment benefits, a large welfare state, a large regulatory state, etc. Sure, the US does not have universal healthcare, but programs like Medicare/Medicaid/SCHIP are not far off and cost ridiculous amounts of money. So, please, spare me the B.S.

So, sure, let's be like Norway and lower our Corporate tax rates to their level - 25% (it's 35% in the US). I'm sure, you're for that, right? Or how about we de-regulate a lot of our industries (many EU countries have less regulatory burdens than the US). So who is really being disingenuous here?


You up for nationalizing oil/natural resources? That's a very significant part of Norway's success. (Another is investing these funds wisely rather than spending them and overheating economy.)

Also, while I can get behind that the US has more progressive taxation than Norway (at least in theory, not sure how it works out with loopholes, although Norway does have loopholes too), Norway has extremely strong labor unions that over the past several decades have ensured very 'progressive' wage-levels. (the US has a higher average salary than Norway, by like 10% (source,) yet a lower median income. A 20 year old working in mcdonalds makes $18/hour at entry level and this is one of the lowest paying jobs we have here also).

Claims that Norway is 'socialist' is wrong. We're a mixed economy for sure. But there are elements of socialism present in our country which is not present in the US, and some of these elements are pretty instrumental in explaining why it's such a good country to live in. And if you were to juxtapose the Norway and the US in a 'which country is more socialist or capitalist than the other' then there's no question the US looks more capitalist overall..


The US economy is also a mixed economy too, if it wasn't things like subsidies, and social security wouldn't be a thing.


Oh, I agree entirely. Mostly everyone is arguing about 'preferred degree of mixed economy', not about revoking property rights vs 0 safety net capitalism. I still maintain that Norway has significantly more socialist elements to it than the US does, but not that the US is a libertarian paradise.
Moderator
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21950 Posts
January 24 2019 23:41 GMT
#21204
On January 25 2019 07:58 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2019 07:10 Pandain wrote:
The whole debate is so stupid. It's not even really about a wall. We already have lots of walls and fences and barriers along the border, and those were supported by bipartisan federal legislation in the past.

It's instead just about the symbolic significance. If Trump manages to get funding, its a huge political victory. On the other hand, if he can't get funding, it's a huge political blow. Same for Democrats but vice versa.

Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of federal employees suffer between this pointless feud. If it was me, I would just make a compromise where Democrats put in extra funding for border security (without a wall). More border agents for instance.

They're already working on that. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/top-house-dem-says-new-offer-will-focus-funding-smart-n961746

Although if I remember correctly they tried to do this already back in December and Trump said no.
Still think its a mistake. They can get a clean bill through or they can steam in their shutdown some more.
What are the Democrats getting in return for giving Trump 5 bil?
Opening the government is not a compromise towards Democrats, its supposed to be the default state of the government.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
January 25 2019 00:05 GMT
#21205
I'm still wondering if Trump could somehow throw McConnell under the bus to appear like a winner, he's tried to throw the Dems under the bus and failed to do so for the most part.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45022 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-25 01:22:46
January 25 2019 01:21 GMT
#21206
Not sure if it's a bluff or not, but Trump might declare a national emergency and somehow obtain $7B for his wall. This was apparently updated ~3 hours ago:

Exclusive: White House preparing draft national emergency order, has identified $7 billion for wall

Washington (CNN)The White House is preparing a draft proclamation for President Donald Trump to declare a national emergency along the southern border and has identified more than $7 billion in potential funds for his signature border wall should he go that route, according to internal documents reviewed by CNN.

Trump has not ruled out using his authority to declare a national emergency and direct the Defense Department to construct a border wall as Congress and the White House fight over a deal to end the government shutdown. But while Trump's advisers remain divided on the issue, the White House has been moving forward with alternative plans that would bypass Congress.
"The massive amount of aliens who unlawfully enter the United States each day is a direct threat to the safety and security of our nation and constitutes a national emergency," a draft of a presidential proclamation reads.
"Now, therefore, I, Donald J. Trump, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C 1601, et seq.), hereby declare that a national emergency exists at the southern border of the United States," the draft adds.
The draft was updated as recently as last week, a US government official told CNN.
According to options being considered, the administration could pull: $681 million from Treasury forfeiture funds, $3.6 billion in military construction, $3 billion in Pentagon civil works funds, and $200 million in Department of Homeland Security funds, the official said.
As lawmakers discussed a short-term measure to fund the government Thursday, Trump again raised the prospect of other ways to fund a border wall without congressional approval.
"I have other alternatives if I have to and I'll use those alternatives if I have to," he told reporters.
"A lot of people who wants this to happen. The military wants this to happen. This is a virtual invasion of our country," Trump said.
The Defense Department referred a request for comment from CNN to the White House.
If the declaration is made, the US Army Corps of Engineers would be deployed to construct the wall, some of which could be built on private property and would therefore require the administration to seize the land, which is permitted if it's for public use.
The administration's plans acknowledge the possibility for lawsuits if they move forward with acquiring private property. The documents also reflect a sense of urgency with administration plans, noting that environmental reviews can be skipped and DHS can use waivers to bypass contracting laws.
If the President proceeds with the declaration, it'll likely be challenged in court and by Democrats in Congress, as critics have argued that Trump cannot use the national emergency authority to free up taxpayer funds and build the border wall he has long promised his political supporters.
The question of legality and court challenges is still one of the main hang-ups in using executive action to secure the wall funding. Trump's advisers have cautioned that taking that route would lead to certain legal challenge, meaning the wall construction would still be delayed.
The draft document cites Title 10 of the US Code, which allows Trump to unlock a stash of Pentagon funds that are earmarked but have no signed contracts for spending that money. That would give the President authority to pull from military construction funds and civil works projects, like infrastructure repair projects.
Rep. Dan Crenshaw, R-Texas, tweeted earlier this month that acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, "assured Texans that he understood the deep concerns about using Harvey relief funds for the border." CNN previously reported that the Pentagon was asked to provide a list of those projects in anticipation of a national emergency.
The Pentagon has assisted the Department of Homeland Security in the past. For example, the Army Corps of Engineers, a federal agency within DOD that provides public engineering services, has helped evaluate prototypes of the border wall.
Options under consideration conceded that acquiring private property would take time. Even if voluntary, the land could take up to a year to be acquired. Land condemnation cases are known to take time because property owners have the right to sue. A national emergency declaration would not speed that process up, a government official says.
Customs and Border Protection has said that it would consider eminent domain in the future.
"It is always CBP's preference to acquire property through a voluntary, negotiated sale. The Government will attempt to negotiate an offer to sell using survey data and value estimates gleaned from the surveying process," reads an excerpt in a border wall Q&A on their site. "The Government will attempt to negotiate an offer to sell before moving forward with exercising eminent domain. However, if the Government and landowner are unable to reach a negotiated sale or if the Government is unable to obtain clean title, the Government will need to file an eminent domain action."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/24/politics/trump-border-wall-emergency-draft/index.html?utm_medium=social&utm_content=2019-01-24T22:13:33&utm_source=twCNNp&utm_term=image&fbclid=IwAR2vjGtw4UpHN8Nl1iiYUCJG6wv-TOMiNh0-HavQejrJ2itny_FQclEeo_w
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
January 25 2019 01:55 GMT
#21207
I've been rooting for the national emergency route for awhile now. Declare the emergency, pass a funding bill, and let them fight out his emergency declaration in the courts.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21950 Posts
January 25 2019 02:08 GMT
#21208
On January 25 2019 10:55 Tachion wrote:
I've been rooting for the national emergency route for awhile now. Declare the emergency, pass a funding bill, and let them fight out his emergency declaration in the courts.
The GOP will do their very best to stop him, they know that it will set precedence for the Democrats to exploit with things much bigger then 'the wall'.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
January 25 2019 02:45 GMT
#21209
From NBC: Officials rejected Jared Kushner for top secret security clearance, but were overruled

WASHINGTON — Jared Kushner's application for a top secret clearance was rejected by two career White House security specialists after an FBI background check raised concerns about potential foreign influence on him — but their supervisor overruled the recommendation and approved the clearance, two sources familiar with the matter told NBC News.

The official, Carl Kline, is a former Pentagon employee who was installed as director of the personnel security office in the Executive Office of the President in May 2017. Kushner's was one of at least 30 cases in which Kline overruled career security experts and approved a top secret clearance for incoming Trump officials despite unfavorable information, the two sources said. They said the number of rejections that were overruled was unprecedented — it had happened only once in the three years preceding Kline's arrival.

This sounds suuuuuuper sketchy. Basically, the FBI rejected over 30 Trump appointees from getting security clearance for various reasons (for Kushner it was concerns about foreign influence, something that should be shocking to no one given his past financial dealings) so the administrations basically installed its own person who just overruled all of the FBI rulings.
"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24740 Posts
January 25 2019 03:05 GMT
#21210
I hate to say it but that's hardly surprising. It's pretty obvious the administration was inappropriately ramming those clearances through, although this article does add a few particulars, albeit from anonymous sources.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Wegandi
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2455 Posts
January 25 2019 04:21 GMT
#21211
On January 25 2019 06:38 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2019 02:36 Plansix wrote:
On January 25 2019 02:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On January 25 2019 01:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
According to that link, the only countries in the EU with less "burdensome is it for companies to comply with public administration’s requirements" than USA would be Finland and Germany, so to say that "many EU countries have less regulatory burdens than the US" would be completely false based on that metric.

I’m pretty sure german or finnish environmental regulations would be seen as literally Hitler by almost everyone in the GOP.

But Wegandi continues his bad faith crusade. What prompts accusations of socialism by conservatives is mainly social programs, universal healthcare, free education, workers rights and so on. It’s from there they jump on the oh so dumb Venezuela attack, and then refocus on corporate taxes when people answer « yes but I’m rather talking about Denmark? »

The thing that always confuses me is when people make wild claims about the EU and its laws/regulations when they full blown know that people from the EU use this site.

Yup. I have lived in Norway for five years and hearing a Trump supporter say it’s more capitalist than the US to protect his shitty argument that « socialist » policies à la Sanders = Venezuela = eating rats is absolutely hillarious.


The amount of strawman and outright lies (like I am a Trump supporter? LOL) is enormous and yuuuuge. You hate Trump so much you argue just like him!
Thank you bureaucrats for all your hard work, your commitment to public service and public good is essential to the lives of so many. Also, for Pete's sake can we please get some gun control already, no need for hand guns and assault rifles for the public
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
January 25 2019 06:14 GMT
#21212
On January 25 2019 11:45 Ben... wrote:
From NBC: Officials rejected Jared Kushner for top secret security clearance, but were overruled
Show nested quote +

WASHINGTON — Jared Kushner's application for a top secret clearance was rejected by two career White House security specialists after an FBI background check raised concerns about potential foreign influence on him — but their supervisor overruled the recommendation and approved the clearance, two sources familiar with the matter told NBC News.

The official, Carl Kline, is a former Pentagon employee who was installed as director of the personnel security office in the Executive Office of the President in May 2017. Kushner's was one of at least 30 cases in which Kline overruled career security experts and approved a top secret clearance for incoming Trump officials despite unfavorable information, the two sources said. They said the number of rejections that were overruled was unprecedented — it had happened only once in the three years preceding Kline's arrival.

This sounds suuuuuuper sketchy. Basically, the FBI rejected over 30 Trump appointees from getting security clearance for various reasons (for Kushner it was concerns about foreign influence, something that should be shocking to no one given his past financial dealings) so the administrations basically installed its own person who just overruled all of the FBI rulings.
I already know how to explain this

Look, maybe we gave top secret clearance to 30 people that shouldn't be near state secrets, but did you know Hilary had an unsecured email server?

Neosteel Enthusiast
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7917 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-25 08:26:26
January 25 2019 08:17 GMT
#21213
On January 25 2019 13:21 Wegandi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2019 06:38 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On January 25 2019 02:36 Plansix wrote:
On January 25 2019 02:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On January 25 2019 01:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
According to that link, the only countries in the EU with less "burdensome is it for companies to comply with public administration’s requirements" than USA would be Finland and Germany, so to say that "many EU countries have less regulatory burdens than the US" would be completely false based on that metric.

I’m pretty sure german or finnish environmental regulations would be seen as literally Hitler by almost everyone in the GOP.

But Wegandi continues his bad faith crusade. What prompts accusations of socialism by conservatives is mainly social programs, universal healthcare, free education, workers rights and so on. It’s from there they jump on the oh so dumb Venezuela attack, and then refocus on corporate taxes when people answer « yes but I’m rather talking about Denmark? »

The thing that always confuses me is when people make wild claims about the EU and its laws/regulations when they full blown know that people from the EU use this site.

Yup. I have lived in Norway for five years and hearing a Trump supporter say it’s more capitalist than the US to protect his shitty argument that « socialist » policies à la Sanders = Venezuela = eating rats is absolutely hillarious.


The amount of strawman and outright lies (like I am a Trump supporter? LOL) is enormous and yuuuuge. You hate Trump so much you argue just like him!

I was not talking specifically about you here. I’ve heard the socialism = Venezuela argument about a million times. It’s become a big dumb trope of the american right, as has the idea that Scandinavia is that super liberatrian place even though they are the most equalitarian societies in the world.

That’s basically the mechanism here. You guys want to associate « socialism » with Venezuela but not with Denmark even though the people in the US you accuse of being socialists want a Danish system. Which is something you know very well.

American progressives want a strong state, high regulations, more progressive taxations, free healthcare and free education, and a vastly reduced level of inequalities. That’s Denmark. Maybe “socialism” is a bad word, because it describes too many things. But conservatives were the first ones to accuse Obama of being socialist.

Now. No one serious is interested in nationalizing all major industries and transform the country into a banana republic. Every time you mix american “socialists” amd Venezuela, you are the one lying and making one really big, dumb strawman.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21950 Posts
January 25 2019 10:19 GMT
#21214
On January 25 2019 11:45 Ben... wrote:
From NBC: Officials rejected Jared Kushner for top secret security clearance, but were overruled
Show nested quote +

WASHINGTON — Jared Kushner's application for a top secret clearance was rejected by two career White House security specialists after an FBI background check raised concerns about potential foreign influence on him — but their supervisor overruled the recommendation and approved the clearance, two sources familiar with the matter told NBC News.

The official, Carl Kline, is a former Pentagon employee who was installed as director of the personnel security office in the Executive Office of the President in May 2017. Kushner's was one of at least 30 cases in which Kline overruled career security experts and approved a top secret clearance for incoming Trump officials despite unfavorable information, the two sources said. They said the number of rejections that were overruled was unprecedented — it had happened only once in the three years preceding Kline's arrival.

This sounds suuuuuuper sketchy. Basically, the FBI rejected over 30 Trump appointees from getting security clearance for various reasons (for Kushner it was concerns about foreign influence, something that should be shocking to no one given his past financial dealings) so the administrations basically installed its own person who just overruled all of the FBI rulings.
Add another to the extremely long list of things that will require a full investigation once Trump is out of office.
Things like this should have serious consequences.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
January 25 2019 11:04 GMT
#21215
On January 25 2019 10:55 Tachion wrote:
I've been rooting for the national emergency route for awhile now. Declare the emergency, pass a funding bill, and let them fight out his emergency declaration in the courts.


Why in particular?

Do you not feel it sets a dangerous precedent allowing future Presidents to arbitarily overrule Congressional limits on their power?
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45022 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-25 11:51:14
January 25 2019 11:50 GMT
#21216
Roger Stone just got scooped up. This was only a matter of time, and he was such a smug jerk about everything too. The article is particularly entertaining as well, comparing him to "the character in a whodunit who readers immediately dismiss as too obvious to have committed the crime".

Roger Stone, Adviser to Trump, Is Indicted in Mueller Investigation

WASHINGTON — Roger J. Stone Jr., a longtime informal adviser to President Trump who has spent decades plying the dark arts of scandal-mongering and dirty tricks to help influence American political campaigns, was indicted Friday in the special counsel investigation.

Mr. Stone was charged with seven counts, including obstruction of an official proceeding, making false statements and witness tampering, according to the special counsel’s office.

The indictment is the first public move in months by the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, who is investigating Russia’s interference in the 2016 election and possible coordination with Trump associates.

[Read the indictment: https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/586-roger-stone-indictment/d34c762c3e142f844c2b/optimized/full.pdf#page=1 ]

Mr. Stone and his lawyer could not immediately be reached for comment.

Mr. Stone, a self-described dirty trickster who began his career as a campaign aide for Richard M. Nixon and has a tattoo of Nixon on his back, has long maintained that he had no connection to Russia’s attempts to disrupt the 2016 presidential election. He sometimes seemed to taunt American law enforcement agencies, daring them to find hard evidence to link him to the Russian meddling campaign.

His brash behavior made him less of a subject of news media scrutiny than other current and former aides to President Trump — like the character in a whodunit who readers immediately dismiss as too obvious to have committed the crime.

But the special counsel’s investigators spent months encircling Mr. Stone, renewing scrutiny about his role during the 2016 presidential race. Investigators interviewed former Trump campaign advisers and several of his associates about both about Mr. Stone’s fund-raising during the campaign and his contacts with WikiLeaks, one of the organizations that made thousands of Democratic emails public in the months before the election.

Three senior Trump campaign officials have told Mr. Mueller’s team that Mr. Stone created the impression that he was a conduit for inside information from WikiLeaks, according to people familiar with their witness interviews. One of them told investigators that Mr. Stone not only seemed to predict WikiLeaks’ actions, but also that he took credit afterward for the timing of its disclosures that damaged Hillary Clinton’s candidacy.

In social media posts and numerous interviews before the 2016 election, Mr. Stone indicated that he had advance knowledge that a trove of information damaging to Mrs. Clinton’s campaign might be about to spill into public, and even suggested that he had personally spoken to the WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange.

Mr. Stone has changed his story in the months since, saying that he was not actually speaking to Mr. Assange and that he had no direct knowledge that Russians were responsible for the Democratic hackings. Still, it was revealed last year that, in the weeks before the election, Mr. Stone was messaging on Twitter with Guccifer 2.0, a pseudonym used by one or more operatives in the Russian intelligence scheme to steal the emails and funnel them to WikiLeaks.

Mr. Stone himself has said publicly that he was prepared for the possibility that he could be indicted, but he has long maintained that he is innocent and has often echoed Mr. Trump’s claims that Mr. Mueller’s investigation is a politically motivated witch hunt.

“This was supposed to be about Russian collusion, and it appears to be an effort to silence or punish the president’s supporters and his advocates,” he said last May on “Meet the Press.”

“It is not inconceivable now that Mr. Mueller and his team may seek to conjure up some extraneous crime pertaining to my business, or maybe not even pertaining to the 2016 election,” he said.

The tumultuous relationship between Mr. Stone and Mr. Trump goes back decades, with Mr. Stone acting as an informal adviser to Mr. Trump as he considered running for president several times. When Mr. Trump formally announced during the spring of 2015 that he was running for president, Mr. Stone was one of the first members of the team, but within months, he had a public dispute with Mr. Trump and left the campaign.

The two men have remained close, though, speaking often by telephone.

Mr. Stone revels in his public persona as a bête noire of American politics, and has taken credit for helping unearth scandals about Democratic politicians. In 2008, he played a role in revealing an affair between a prostitute and Eliot Spitzer, who was then the governor of New York. Mr. Spitzer immediately resigned from office.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/25/us/politics/roger-stone-indicted-mueller-investigation.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&fbclid=IwAR1OvTXhuunZVJ6aWuOgak4hL_CYkiA1weqeG2GqFZspA5P_uwwvIVl-dXU
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18838 Posts
January 25 2019 12:05 GMT
#21217
Stone is also publicly feuding with another co-conspirator, Jerome Corsi, so expect some further shenanigans.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 25 2019 12:13 GMT
#21218
I love that it always can be traced back to Nixon. From Stone to Roger Ailes, it all can be traced by to the last time we had a useless grifter in the White House.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-25 12:20:57
January 25 2019 12:19 GMT
#21219
On January 25 2019 13:21 Wegandi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2019 06:38 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On January 25 2019 02:36 Plansix wrote:
On January 25 2019 02:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On January 25 2019 01:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
According to that link, the only countries in the EU with less "burdensome is it for companies to comply with public administration’s requirements" than USA would be Finland and Germany, so to say that "many EU countries have less regulatory burdens than the US" would be completely false based on that metric.

I’m pretty sure german or finnish environmental regulations would be seen as literally Hitler by almost everyone in the GOP.

But Wegandi continues his bad faith crusade. What prompts accusations of socialism by conservatives is mainly social programs, universal healthcare, free education, workers rights and so on. It’s from there they jump on the oh so dumb Venezuela attack, and then refocus on corporate taxes when people answer « yes but I’m rather talking about Denmark? »

The thing that always confuses me is when people make wild claims about the EU and its laws/regulations when they full blown know that people from the EU use this site.

Yup. I have lived in Norway for five years and hearing a Trump supporter say it’s more capitalist than the US to protect his shitty argument that « socialist » policies à la Sanders = Venezuela = eating rats is absolutely hillarious.


The amount of strawman and outright lies (like I am a Trump supporter? LOL) is enormous and yuuuuge. You hate Trump so much you argue just like him!

Why are you undergoing Trump-speak?
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-25 12:23:42
January 25 2019 12:20 GMT
#21220
I was a week off on the Mueller report. But thank goodness Stone was arrested. If he wasn’t arrested I don’t think I would be able to follow the current investigation anymore. He was so open and public about his relationship with Russia, I’m sure he threw himself under the bus with that TV interview. Can’t wait to see that used in court against him.

Also based on the report, looks like Wikileaks was heavily involved as well.

On or about July 25, 2016, STONE sent an email to Person 1 with the subject line, “Get to [the head of Organization 1].” The body of the message read, “Get to [the head of Organization 1] [a]t Ecuadorian Embassy in London and get the pending [Organization 1] emails . . . they deal with Foundation, allegedly.” On or about the same day, Person 1 forwarded STONE’s email to an associate who lived in the United Kingdom and was a supporter of the Trump Campaign.

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