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On December 31 2018 11:43 Automedon wrote:
What if Trump shuts down the government until he leaves office? BTW, Trump hasn't been forced to veto anything yet. So why not blame GOP congress?
It is also amazing that Trump is threatening to veto any bill that would fund the government because he is determined to break his own campaign promise; that Mexico will pay for the wall.
It is so puzzling...
I also don't get why this is not exactly what the democrats write down: No US funding for the wall because Mexico will pay for it and Trump will negotiate the money from them at a later date. Just put that down in writing and then force Trump to veto Mexico paying for the wall. Then manipulate the media so that it says "Trump Veto's Mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall spending bill, continuing a government shutdown that costs the taxpayer millions every day".
How long do you think he can go before people completely turn on him and the GOP? Nobody is blaming the Democrats for this, it's all on Trump. The longer it goes, the worse he looks. When the Democrats start putting out decent funding bills and Trump refuses to sign them, the optics will get worse and worse and worse until the GOP overrides him.
There is zero reason for the Democrats to do him any favours right now. Once they have the house, the public expects them to start doing something, and capitulating to Trump would look awful for them.
Just go back a few years and look how the Tea Party shutdown over defunding Obamacare went. They always think that standing up to the EBUL GOVNERNMENTS looks good to their base. And maybe it does, but there's a ton of people out there that aren't the base who aren't impressed. Shutdowns are about not being blamed. Once the public is blaming a side, that side's lost, because the longer it goes on without that side's capitulation, the worse they look.
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On December 31 2018 11:44 micronesia wrote:
Can't congress use a supermajority to pass a clean CR or something and bypass Trump? I don't think Trump by himself can continuously keep the government closed. Yes Congress can overwrite a Presidential Veto if they have a big enough majority.
I thought I read that the first, clean, CR passed unanimously so its possible they would actually have the votes for it. But GOP leadership obviously has no interest in overruling their own President, especially one as childish as Trump.
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On December 31 2018 19:36 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2018 11:44 micronesia wrote:
Can't congress use a supermajority to pass a clean CR or something and bypass Trump? I don't think Trump by himself can continuously keep the government closed. Yes Congress can overwrite a Presidential Veto if they have a big enough majority. I thought I read that the first, clean, CR passed unanimously so its possible they would actually have the votes for it. But GOP leadership obviously has no interest in overruling their own President, especially one as childish as Trump.
It's more that the base likes Trump but hates the main GOP unless they're slavishly devoted to him. Going against him isn't good for them, so they won't until their backs are against the wall. But their backs will be against the wall soon enough.
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On December 31 2018 22:09 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2018 19:36 Gorsameth wrote:On December 31 2018 11:44 micronesia wrote:
Can't congress use a supermajority to pass a clean CR or something and bypass Trump? I don't think Trump by himself can continuously keep the government closed. Yes Congress can overwrite a Presidential Veto if they have a big enough majority. I thought I read that the first, clean, CR passed unanimously so its possible they would actually have the votes for it. But GOP leadership obviously has no interest in overruling their own President, especially one as childish as Trump. It's more that the base likes Trump but hates the main GOP unless they're slavishly devoted to him. Going against him isn't good for them, so they won't until their backs are against the wall. But their backs will be against the wall soon enough.
Backs against the wall. I see what you did there, and I applaud you sir.
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The wall is a way to pocket our tax dollars, just like "rebuilding roads".
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I feel like the wall is a physical structure proxy for the metaphorical concept of removing all ways to immigrate to this country. Just like how the US as always been at war with eastasia…I mean Afghanistan. Trump and his immigration hardliners have always been and always will be building the wall against immigration.
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It's the street smarts appeal of a simple solutions that "those ivory tower guys" just couldn't think about, but which "us simple folks" can easily see as a solution to a complex problem.
Kind of similar to the gordian knot situation.
This approach often falls upon problems when confronted with reality. Usually that "simple and obvious solution" has already been thought about many, many times, and usually discarded for very valid (though possibly slightly complicated) reasons. But it feels better to think of the people making decisions as educated stupid rather than realizing that the world is complicated, and sometimes the solution to a complicated problem is also very complicated.
Sometimes you have to untie the gordian knot, and can't just cut it.
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United States44361 Posts
On January 01 2019 00:47 Simberto wrote:
It's the street smarts appeal of a simple solutions that "those ivory tower guys" just couldn't think about, but which "us simple folks" can easily see as a solution to a complex problem.
Kind of similar to the gordian knot situation.
This approach often falls upon problems when confronted with reality. Usually that "simple and obvious solution" has already been thought about many, many times, and usually discarded for very valid (though possibly slightly complicated) reasons. But it feels better to think of the people making decisions as educated stupid rather than realizing that the world is complicated, and sometimes the solution to a complicated problem is also very complicated.
Sometimes you have to untie the gordian knot, and can't just cut it.
Just posting to say that I really liked this post and that nobody knew healthcare was so complicated.
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Its fine though, because the Republicans now support the ACA, while still filing and supporting lawsuits trying to gut the ACA. And some of them wonder why they lost 40 seats in the House.
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On January 01 2019 00:47 Simberto wrote:
It's the street smarts appeal of a simple solutions that "those ivory tower guys" just couldn't think about, but which "us simple folks" can easily see as a solution to a complex problem.
Kind of similar to the gordian knot situation.
This approach often falls upon problems when confronted with reality. Usually that "simple and obvious solution" has already been thought about many, many times, and usually discarded for very valid (though possibly slightly complicated) reasons. But it feels better to think of the people making decisions as educated stupid rather than realizing that the world is complicated, and sometimes the solution to a complicated problem is also very complicated.
Sometimes you have to untie the gordian knot, and can't just cut it.
What frustrates me to the point of insanity, though, is that the same 'common sense' people thinking 'A wall sounds great' can't make the common sense solution step of 'but if I was facing a wall, I'd climb over it!'
I want Trump to put in a budget demand for funding not just for the wall, but a moat of equal size, drawbridges (and functional portcullisses) at every crossing point, and an 'alligator' fund, for the wild alligators patrolling the moat.
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On January 01 2019 01:54 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2019 00:47 Simberto wrote:
It's the street smarts appeal of a simple solutions that "those ivory tower guys" just couldn't think about, but which "us simple folks" can easily see as a solution to a complex problem.
Kind of similar to the gordian knot situation.
This approach often falls upon problems when confronted with reality. Usually that "simple and obvious solution" has already been thought about many, many times, and usually discarded for very valid (though possibly slightly complicated) reasons. But it feels better to think of the people making decisions as educated stupid rather than realizing that the world is complicated, and sometimes the solution to a complicated problem is also very complicated.
Sometimes you have to untie the gordian knot, and can't just cut it. What frustrates me to the point of insanity, though, is that the same 'common sense' people thinking 'A wall sounds great' can't make the common sense solution step of 'but if I was facing a wall, I'd climb over it!' I want Trump to put in a budget demand for funding not just for the wall, but a moat of equal size, drawbridges (and functional portcullisses) at every crossing point, and an 'alligator' fund, for the wild alligators patrolling the moat.
I am only for this if we use American alligators! I am sick of our countries moats being filled with Chinese alligators taking away good American jobs!
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On January 01 2019 01:54 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2019 00:47 Simberto wrote:
It's the street smarts appeal of a simple solutions that "those ivory tower guys" just couldn't think about, but which "us simple folks" can easily see as a solution to a complex problem.
Kind of similar to the gordian knot situation.
This approach often falls upon problems when confronted with reality. Usually that "simple and obvious solution" has already been thought about many, many times, and usually discarded for very valid (though possibly slightly complicated) reasons. But it feels better to think of the people making decisions as educated stupid rather than realizing that the world is complicated, and sometimes the solution to a complicated problem is also very complicated.
Sometimes you have to untie the gordian knot, and can't just cut it. What frustrates me to the point of insanity, though, is that the same 'common sense' people thinking 'A wall sounds great' can't make the common sense solution step of 'but if I was facing a wall, I'd climb over it!' I want Trump to put in a budget demand for funding not just for the wall, but a moat of equal size, drawbridges (and functional portcullisses) at every crossing point, and an 'alligator' fund, for the wild alligators patrolling the moat.
I doubt the Wall would have been an effective campaign promise in the 1990s. Part of the reason it resonated is that immigration reform has been kicked down the road for 30 years as a political issue. People were willing movement, even a deeply flawed one. They are just feed up that nothing has happened.
Also, the anti-immigration wing of the Republican party has been cultivating voters that love the idea of stopping all immigration, legal or otherwise. By both promoting the solution of deporting anyone who isn’t a citizen and derailing any immigration reform effort in congress, increasing anger about the lack of action. The concept of a big wall keeping everyone out is appealing to those voters, despite how stupid it is.
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The illegal immigrants be like, wall? Challenge accepted.
Aside from your usual airplanes, boats, ladders, and ropes, they could just take a page from North Korea and dig tunnels (if they haven't already):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Tunnel_of_Aggression
One out of four, possibly more. Don't ever let 160 miles of DMZ filled with land mines on both sides deter you from fulfilling your dream! Those tunnels could've reached all the way to Seoul if left undiscovered lol. On our side, pretty sure drug cartels already have several tunnels set up and in operation today.
Maintenance costs of the wall will probably be many times the cost of the wall itself the longer it is up. After a couple of decades might be even enough to bankrupt a nation. And that doesn't even account for staffing the thing.
I think everybody here already agrees having an actual concrete wall is a dumb idea. Discussing why it's pointless and unfeasible (while poking fun at Trump) is still fun though.
Now we're left to discuss the "wall" as an analogy to immigration policy, which sounds more boring 
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I enjoy how there are currently large groups of people who are like "well no shit its not some giant concrete wall, it was never going to be, but I am very interested in border security!"
But then also groups like "FUCK YOU TRAITOR IT IS 100% A CONCRETE WALL MAGA BASED"
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Canada11607 Posts
On January 01 2019 00:27 Plansix wrote:
I feel like the wall is a physical structure proxy for the metaphorical concept of removing all ways to immigrate to this country. Just like how the US as always been at war with eastasia…I mean Afghanistan. Trump and his immigration hardliners have always been and always will be building the wall against immigration.
Unless demonstrated otherwise, I'm willing to believe that most pro-wall people are pro-immigrant, but anti-illegal immigrant, rather than assuming they harbour animus against all immigrants. I don't think that's unreasonable.
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United States44361 Posts
On January 01 2019 03:31 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2019 00:27 Plansix wrote:
I feel like the wall is a physical structure proxy for the metaphorical concept of removing all ways to immigrate to this country. Just like how the US as always been at war with eastasia…I mean Afghanistan. Trump and his immigration hardliners have always been and always will be building the wall against immigration. Unless demonstrated otherwise, I'm willing to believe that most pro-wall people are pro-immigrant, but anti-illegal immigrant, rather than assuming they harbour animus against all immigrants. I don't think that's unreasonable.
Unless demonstrated otherwise is a pretty big caveat here. I feel like there is quite a lot of evidence that wall people are anti immigrant. They overlap heavily with immigration ban people, for example. So while I don’t disagree with the idea that in a vacuum we wouldn’t know enough to extrapolate, we’re not in a vacuum here.
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There’s also the established discrepancy between folks who claim “the wall” is a metaphor for border security and folks who plainly just want a wall. While not conclusive, there’s definitely something to the notion that literal wall supporters see things differently than others and are likely motivated by more than mere “anti-illegal immigrant” sentiment. That’s not to mention that mere “anti-illegal immigrant” attitudes mesh most closely with the option not even on the Trump table, namely immigration reform that targets the primary access point for “illegal immigrants,” overstayed visas.
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On January 01 2019 03:31 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2019 00:27 Plansix wrote:
I feel like the wall is a physical structure proxy for the metaphorical concept of removing all ways to immigrate to this country. Just like how the US as always been at war with eastasia…I mean Afghanistan. Trump and his immigration hardliners have always been and always will be building the wall against immigration. Unless demonstrated otherwise, I'm willing to believe that most pro-wall people are pro-immigrant, but anti-illegal immigrant, rather than assuming they harbour animus against all immigrants. I don't think that's unreasonable.
What sort of evidence would you like? There hasn’t been any immigration reform in 30 years, despite a number of attempts. Illegal immigration is down, so the support these aggressive stances against asylum seekers has to make one wonder why some folks are so invested in treating these folks so poorly for no real reason.
The Jeff Sessions, Steve Millers and Mark Meadows of the world are on record saying they support legal immigration and would like to update the immigration system to be more merit based. And that merit based system would allow for more control to assure that the best people are allowed to come to the US. If we take them at face value and believe that system will be objective and perfectly fair, then there is no reason to doubt that they support immigration of the highest quality people. And that is the reason that Jeff Sessions and Steve Miller blew up the last immigration reform effort, because they didn't like how the system currently works.
But the truth is, I don’t trust them. And no one really should considering systems like the one they propose could be easily abused with little recourse for those trying to immigrate legally. This “merit based system” is just PR for a system that would provide more reasons to deny different people the ability to immigrate. Just like “right to work” laws are just a reframing of anti-union laws that don’t force people to join a union, but still force the union to represent non-members. The aggressive stances at the border are not against illegal immigrants, but asylum seekers. Asylum seekers are legal immigrants attempting to gain long term status in the US.
If you look at the actions of the Trump administration, the deportations of illegal immigrants is only a small part of their efforts. They have revoked the asylum status large groups of disaster refuges from various South American and island nations. They have started investigation into American citizens who immigrated from South America that the administration believes lied on their citizenship application. They have started deportation proceedings against green card holders due to minor crimes that were resolved, sometimes decades ago.
It is hard to look the people who support folks like Steve Miller and Sessions and continue to believe they support immigration. All signs point to them wanting to keep people from coming to the US by any means necessary.
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On January 01 2019 02:07 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2019 01:58 IyMoon wrote:On January 01 2019 01:54 iamthedave wrote:On January 01 2019 00:47 Simberto wrote:
It's the street smarts appeal of a simple solutions that "those ivory tower guys" just couldn't think about, but which "us simple folks" can easily see as a solution to a complex problem.
Kind of similar to the gordian knot situation.
This approach often falls upon problems when confronted with reality. Usually that "simple and obvious solution" has already been thought about many, many times, and usually discarded for very valid (though possibly slightly complicated) reasons. But it feels better to think of the people making decisions as educated stupid rather than realizing that the world is complicated, and sometimes the solution to a complicated problem is also very complicated.
Sometimes you have to untie the gordian knot, and can't just cut it. What frustrates me to the point of insanity, though, is that the same 'common sense' people thinking 'A wall sounds great' can't make the common sense solution step of 'but if I was facing a wall, I'd climb over it!' I want Trump to put in a budget demand for funding not just for the wall, but a moat of equal size, drawbridges (and functional portcullisses) at every crossing point, and an 'alligator' fund, for the wild alligators patrolling the moat. I am only for this if we use American alligators! I am sick of our countries moats being filled with Chinese alligators taking away good American jobs! Could also be good for american farmers since they will need to feed the alligators if all the illegals are now to scared and just stay home. I would also think we should consider a way to get laser beams on their heads because every animal deserves a warm meal.
I think this exchange has demonstrated that I need to join Trump's cabinet ASAP.
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EPT
