EPTTerrorist Incident declared in London after Van & Knife At…
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KwarK
United States43276 Posts
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On June 05 2017 23:10 Reaps wrote: The problem with just jailing these kind of people is that they will just become even more radical and radicalize other people while inside, then they come out of jail and are more dangerous than ever. In the UK we have laws against supporting Isis, anyone caught supporting them are actually breaking the law, the problem is as i said, you jail them and then what? They'll probably become an even bigger threat, and its not possible to keep watch on all of them, we have over 3000 jihadists in the country with tens of thousands more supporting these kind of attacks. We are in a really shitty situation and i have no idea what can be done 1) Stop bombing Muslims in the Middle East. 2) Work hard to become energy independent. 3) Stop buying Saudi oil. 4) Stop selling the Saudis weapons. 5) Stop accepting Saudi funding for mosques. 6) Spend money on ensuring that young Muslim children are integrated in western society before they become radicalised | ||
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Reaps
United Kingdom1280 Posts
On June 05 2017 23:26 KwarK wrote: I wouldn't be opposed with anyone locked up for terrorism related charges getting put in an isolated prison and put on a rolling "still a terrorist I see, okay, 10 more years on the sentence and we'll check back then" life sentence. We've started doing this recently thankfully, last year i believe. It's a start at least and need to see more of the same. And not things like "regulating the internet" as Theresa May seems to think is the answer. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4967 Posts
Send them to the land/area they most identify with.. Them being British is a poor flexibility of a nation's constitution. It's funny how integration is such a failed social undertaking, even after the 3rd generation of the initial immigrants settling in the home country. Multiculturalism is something I look at with optimism, but not without a healthy needed grain of skepticism. When does the sense of identification when the fear of alienation is upon you become radicalization? Either there's something inherently flawed in the social structure that's been set up so desperately (guilt and exploitation of post-colonialism), or it's inherently human to segregate (go back to your homogenous community you're most comfortable with). Either way, it's an issue that needs to be looked at. And people just aren't doing that (enough). | ||
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KwarK
United States43276 Posts
On June 05 2017 23:32 Uldridge wrote: They speak Arabic (probably more so than English), they most probably identify more with a culture other than British culture. Send them to the land/area they most identify with.. Them being British is a poor flexibility of a nation's constitution. It's funny how integration is such a failed social undertaking, even after the 3rd generation of the initial immigrants settling in the home country. Multiculturalism is something I look at with optimism, but not without a healthy needed grain of skepticism. When does the sense of identification when the fear of alienation is upon you become radicalization? Either there's something inherently flawed in the social structure that's been set up so desperately (guilt and exploitation of post-colonialism), or it's inherently human to segregate (go back to your homogenous community you're most comfortable with). Either way, it's an issue that needs to be looked at. And people just aren't doing that (enough). Oddly enough the kind of people that do this dumb shit generally aren't Arabic speakers, or especially educated at all. They're mostly misfits who are pissed because the world hasn't given them what they think they deserve. Think a brown Elliot Rodger type. The kind of people who can become smart scholars of the Koran are the kind of people who have a wife and a mortgage. The film Four Lions is a pretty good example and should be required watching. | ||
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Reaps
United Kingdom1280 Posts
On June 05 2017 23:28 a_flayer wrote: 1) Stop bombing Muslims in the Middle East. 2) Work hard to become energy independent. 3) Stop buying Saudi oil. 4) Stop selling the Saudis weapons. 5) Stop accepting Saudi funding for mosques. 6) Spend money on ensuring that young Muslim children are integrated in western society before they become radicalised The foreign policy excuse a lot of people from the left seem to like to use isn't as simple as they like to think. The biggest victims of Isis are other Muslims in the middle east that have a different interpretation of Islam, these people do not have a foreign policy. The second largest victims are religious minorities like the yazidis who are being slaughtered in the tens of thousands, these people do not have a foreign policy. Sweden has a neutral foreign policy and still suffered a terrorist attack. Or the fact that this has been going on for hundreds of years and isnt new. That said, the West's horrible foreign policy could most likely be a factor in some terrorist attacks and frequency, but its not the be all and end all that many claim it to be (not really talking to you, but a lot of people from the left believe this) But yes with that, i agree we should stop interfering with the middle east as it'll only make things worse. As for number 6, you'd be hard pressed to find a country that appeases Muslims and other minorities than the UK does. | ||
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
It doesn't matter what the foreign policy of Sweden is, although I'm sure they're also selling weapons to the Saudis in one way or another. The fact that the west is propping up the Saudis through points 2 to 5 and allowing them to spread this hate with impunity is what is causing the problem. That is also why the yazidis are dying. Because Saudi Arabia is spreading nonsensical hatred. They don't need a foreign policy for that. Six is not about appeasement, but rather ensuring that there are Imams and books that teach a secularized European version of Islam. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4967 Posts
Don't underestimate the intelligence of those that preach against your culture. The people that are pushed into doing these actions may not be the most intelligent, but the apparatus behind it all has good persuasive tactics for these troubled minds. | ||
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
I think these major corporations that have access to so much information, and also have accurate methods to sort through all of it should really help the government. If someone is searching ISIS articles and making pro-ISIS posts on facebook, that should be a yellow flag. If someone is googling how to make a bomb, which day/time is best, what location is most crowded, then that should be red --> search warrant --> search property for weapons. Google definitely has access to this information, they just need to sort through it properly. Maybe they already do this and I am just unaware, but based on the last few attacks it looks like they ignored all warnings. | ||
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Reaps
United Kingdom1280 Posts
On June 05 2017 23:48 a_flayer wrote: You do not seem to grasp that Saudi Arabia lays the foundation for ISIS and extremists by preaching a version of Islam that is incompatible with the west. Once the kids pick up on this from the books and mosques and internet sources which are all funded by Saudi Arabia, they become vulnerable to ISIS propaganda which is based on the very notion that Islam is incompatible with the west. It doesn't matter what the foreign policy of Sweden is, although I'm sure they're also selling weapons to the Saudis in one way or another. The fact that the west is propping up the Saudis through points 2 to 5 and allowing them to spread this hate with impunity is what is causing the problem. That is also why the yazidis are dying. Because Saudi Arabia is spreading nonsensical hatred. They don't need a foreign policy for that. Six is not about appeasement, but rather ensuring that there are Imams and books that teach a secularized European version of Islam. I never disagreed with anything you said about Saudi Arabia.. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On June 05 2017 23:50 biology]major wrote: I understand the government is kinda tied because it can't really arrest citizens just because they are praying to some isis flag. How about social media? Twitter, facebook, google, how have they not eliminated ISIS/islamist specific rhetoric completely from their platforms? So much of the recruitment is done w/ propaganda on these spaces so it would be the first area to target. Stop with the nonsensical attempts to cover it up or brush it under the rug. Look at where the money is coming from to spread the hatred. Who is funding the spreading of an ideology that is at the root of all this? Cut off their funding, and you won't have to keep cleaning up after them. | ||
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KwarK
United States43276 Posts
On June 05 2017 23:48 Uldridge wrote: They're not just angry young adults, KwarK. I'm not saying they're educated, but they've done enough "research" and "introspection" to come to the conclusion that their current environment needs to be cleansed. Don't underestimate the intelligence of those that preach against your culture. The people that are pushed into doing these actions may not be the most intelligent, but the apparatus behind it all has good persuasive tactics for these troubled minds. Sure, but you were arguing that they're not really citizens because they speak Arabic etc and I don't think that's an accurate picture of who we're dealing with. I'd be surprised if they had more than a rudimentary grasp of Arabic and I think if you sent them to Pakistan they'd be hanging out in a McDonalds because it's the only food they'd eat and asking people for the wifi password so they could update their facebook. That's my point. That they're dumb British people who get disillusioned and disappointed and fall into a cult, the same way that red pillers etc do. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On June 05 2017 23:52 Reaps wrote: I never disagreed with anything you said about Saudi Arabia.. I misinterpreted what you meant by "foreign policy" then. I thought that your mention of "foreign policy" included the agreements between Saudi Arabia and western nations. I still think the bombing of the Middle East is basically just helping terrorists recruit people (from the pool of people who share the fundamental ideology spread by Saudi Arabia). Not to mention invading other countries or sending western parents with their kids to places like Libya to fight in the name of your foreign policy to help overthrow Gaddafi by fighting side-by-side with Al Qaeda and immersing themselves in that hateful ideology. That must have been the stupidest shit I've read in a long time. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12363 Posts
On June 05 2017 23:52 Reaps wrote: I never disagreed with anything you said about Saudi Arabia.. Okay but it doesn't make sense to oppose the point on foreign policy if you agree with the other points, as the point on foreign policy has been a source of factual fuel for the propaganda of the other points. You're going to convince fewer people that the west is the enemy because they bomb the muslim world when you, you know, don't bomb the muslim world as the west. It's also weird that you claim that it's a simplistic vision cause there are other factors when a_flayer has just offered you a bunch of other points to target other factors. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4967 Posts
On June 05 2017 23:54 KwarK wrote: Sure, but you were arguing that they're not really citizens because they speak Arabic etc and I don't think that's an accurate picture of who we're dealing with. I'd be surprised if they had more than a rudimentary grasp of Arabic and I think if you sent them to Pakistan they'd be hanging out in a McDonalds because it's the only food they'd eat and asking people for the wifi password so they could update their facebook. That's my point. That they're dumb British people who get disillusioned and disappointed and fall into a cult, the same way that red pillers etc do. I'm arguing that some (but definitely not all, maybe most) have more ties to their roots than they have to the country where they were born and brought up. They live in segregated communities and speak two languages. I see this enough in daily life at my work (they all speak Turkish, they even speak Turkish to the Turkish customers in a Belgian (Dutch speaking) fast food chain and I'm okay with that) and in public (the trams full of school children in mornings or evening are full with people not speaking Dutch; and that's fine). + Show Spoiler + People in China Town for example, how American are they actually? But it comes with a cost. They haven't bonded with this country, but with their community. The (sense of) citizenship is diluted. I'm sure some of those people will be of the kind you've described, but I'm pretty sure a lot of them also won't be those people and have completely devoted themselves to bringing down the system they've reject and live every moment in their existence to accomplish that goal. Edit: or perhaps I should say that some of those people have more ties to the communities that reject the society they were born and brought up in. If we're talking about non-descendants of immigrants. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On June 05 2017 23:38 KwarK wrote: Oddly enough the kind of people that do this dumb shit generally aren't Arabic speakers, or especially educated at all. They're mostly misfits who are pissed because the world hasn't given them what they think they deserve. Think a brown Elliot Rodger type. The kind of people who can become smart scholars of the Koran are the kind of people who have a wife and a mortgage. The film Four Lions is a pretty good example and should be required watching. That movie is so good. It really does give some great and accessible perspective on the whole issue IMO. | ||
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KwarK
United States43276 Posts
On June 06 2017 00:17 ZeromuS wrote: That movie is so good. It really does give some great and accessible perspective on the whole issue IMO. That final scene with the brother too. So good. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
"ISIL’s foreign fighters are surprisingly well-educated."Using the fighters' self-reported educational levels, the study concluded that "69% of recruits reported at least a secondary-level education"of which "a large fraction have gone on to study at university" and also that "only 15% of recruits left school before high school; less than 2% are illiterate." The study also found that foreign fighters are often more educated than their countrymen where those "from Europe and in Central Asia have similar levels of education to their countrymen" while those "from the Middle East, North Africa, and South and East Asia are significantly more educated than what is typical in their home nations." The report notes that its conclusions that terrorism is not driven by poverty and low levels of education does not conform with previous research.However, the report did find a strong correlation "between a country’s male unemployment rate and the propensity of the country to supply foreign fighters" leading the report to recommend that governments pursue a policy of lowering the unemployment rate among the educated as a counter-terrorism strategy. So unemployement plays a role, but education does not. Don't forget that Al-Baghdadi has a PhD in Islamic Studies. This raises the provoking question: what if ISIS is actually true islam and moderate islam is the false one? http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/409591474983005625/pdf/108525-REVISED-PUBLIC.pdf | ||
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KwarK
United States43276 Posts
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