|
No that is my point netherh. That self-proclaimed gurus discredit the lack there of of presence as a flaw in humanity. Thus if you posses a lack of presence, you are to them flawed (or fucked up) and now must follow there teachings.
Now I am not saying that this is done maliciously by gurus to exploit people for money. What I am saying though is that because the ancient practice of meditation has always exalted presence over other mind-states, so long as people are believing that they are lacking in some way (or can be convinced that they are), they are susceptible to becoming practitioners. This keeps the practice of mindfulness alive. If presence wasn't glorified epicly out of proportion to what it actually is and technology and modern ways of living weren't condemned so vehemently by the gurus (who are the ones that are actually judgmental), no one would give a fuck about the whole ordeal.
This does not apply to all meditation participants but it is one of the reasons I see the practice as a borderline cult phenomenon.
|
On June 18 2015 23:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
If its a hoax, why is it now being used in medical circles to help people with mental health issues? This includes programs sanctioned by the British Government.
While I don't think mindfulness is a hoax, I do think this is a bad argument. There are also homeopathy hospitals that are part of the NHS, but homeopathy doesn't work and the NHS website even says so despite it being an available treatment in some parts of the country.
My personal view of mindfulness is that it can help some people, it will have no effect for others, and that for a very small few it can be very damaging. For me; parts of mindfulness can be useful as a distraction when I am having a particularly bad attack but that's all it can do. However, that may be because of my obsessiveness.
|
On June 19 2015 02:54 puppykiller wrote:
No that is my point netherh. That self-proclaimed gurus discredit the lack there of of presence as a flaw in humanity. Thus if you posses a lack of presence, you are to them flawed (or fucked up) and now must follow there teachings.
Now I am not saying that this is done maliciously by gurus to exploit people for money. What I am saying though is that because the ancient practice of meditation has always exalted presence over other mind-states, so long as people are believing that they are lacking in some way (or can be convinced that they are), they are susceptible to becoming practitioners. This keeps the practice of mindfulness alive. If presence wasn't glorified epicly out of proportion to what it actually is and technology and modern ways of living weren't condemned so vehemently by the gurus (who are the ones that are actually judgmental), no one would give a fuck about the whole ordeal.
This does not apply to all meditation participants but it is one of the reasons I see the practice as a borderline cult phenomenon.
Hmm. Well doesn't that make gym membership a "borderline cult phenomenon" too?
There's a lot of nonsense that gets attached to mindfulness / meditation, but I think you just sort of have to take whatever you find useful out of it.
|
The modern Western obsession with exercise IS a cult phenomenon. I'm certainly not arguing that physical activity isn't beneficial or that being fat isn't likely to lead to an earlier death. But the idealized images that individuals feel a cultural duty to strive towards, the ritualistic consistency in which participants apply themselves and the way in which backing out of the practice is framed as failure to in effect to keep participants confined to their regiments... it's definitely more negative than positive in my eyes.
This is not to say that the gym is a bad place, that exercising is bad, or that even really enjoying exercising and spending a lot of time doing it is in anyway bad. It is more to make a general point that gurus tend to (intentionally or unintentionally) corrupt activities into duties to which one judges oneself as a side effect of over-promoting them.
|
On June 19 2015 03:20 puppykiller wrote:
The modern Western obsession with exercise IS a cult phenomenon. I'm certainly not arguing that physical activity isn't beneficial or that being fat isn't likely to lead to an earlier death. But the idealized images that individuals feel a cultural duty to strive towards, the ritualistic consistency at which they apply themselves and the way backing out of the practice is framed as failure to keep participants confined to there regiments... it's definitely more negative than positive in my eyes.
Perhaps it all comes down to how seriously you take these sorts of activities.
But doesn't every sub culture has this to some degree?
|
Yes. Every subculture has practices. How much power and the whether the practices even actually hold power over the practitioners may vary though.
The reason I make such a point of this is because as soon as I started seeing things this way I became conditionlessly free from my depression and started looking to myself for guidance in my life decisions rather than going from practice to practice under the promise (implicit or explicit) that what I was partaking in was "moving me in the right direction/fixing me."
Obviously this does not apply to people who already don't give a fuck and are just doing these sorts of things for fun.
|
United Kingdom10021 Posts
Added some literature and video of world famous neuroscientist, author and sceptic Sam Harris talking about the vast benefits of minfulness:
blog post with guided meditations
the first 45 minutes of the following video includes mr. Harris speaking about spirituality and mindfulness:
(afterwards he discusses why he dislikes islam, which is not up for discussion here!)
+ Show Spoiler +
|
i have nothing against meditation; sometimes it works, sometimes its good.
thing is, this is not meditation. this is bullshit psychology, mixed with meditation, modified by social studies on human competence, made to fit corporate employee needs(social capital is a thing worth protecting these days), then sold to people who just want to play pretend, just want to be drugged/sedated, always looking for the next thing that will make them forget their fucked up reality even if it's just for an hour, a day, a week ...
about cults, i see it like this:
- everything related to the physical is not a cult because it's backed by science;
- everything related to the psychological is a cult because no one really knows what's going on in there, inside our minds. sure there are some scientific(?) progresses but they are irrelevant if/when our minds lag behind.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On June 19 2015 01:36 puppykiller wrote:
Hmm I just think anyone who is willing to sit and do nothing for 5-60 minutes a day because someone promised them it would make them a better person is getting played...
I've spent time doing it and I will say I think it's an overly promoted fad. I could see it being sort of helpful for people who have intense social anxiety or anger management issues but honestly I would take an actually fun presence inducing hobby (like sports or music) over sitting calmly in a spot because someone told me I was a fucked up person that needed to do this to be better. On June 19 2015 03:34 puppykiller wrote:
Yes. Every subculture has practices. How much power and the whether the practices even actually hold power over the practitioners may vary though.
The reason I make such a point of this is because as soon as I started seeing things this way I became conditionlessly free from my depression and started looking to myself for guidance in my life decisions rather than going from practice to practice under the promise (implicit or explicit) that what I was partaking in was "moving me in the right direction/fixing me."
Obviously this does not apply to people who already don't give a fuck and are just doing these sorts of things for fun.
As I read it, your insight on this topic oscillates rapidly between silly and fuzzy.
In the very first video, at the end, the guy says that if you feel like it's a chore, it's another thing to do, like you're supposed to be mindful, then don't do it. The way you represent mindfulness, this is anomalous. But you never address it, which makes me think you just didn't catch it, so you don't really know what your talking about?
Also, it's odd to say that people are "getting played". What are you talking about? They don't contribute money to these people by, as you say, doing "nothing for 5-60 minutes a day". And the folks who suggested in presumably believe it's beneficial, so it's not like they are trying to trick them... I really can't imagine what you are talking about.
Someone told you that you are a fucked up person that needs to meditate to be better? Who? When? What are you talking about? That's incredibly vague.
I'll give you an example of the same poor argument: People who go get the flu shot are mindless drones to the mega-health corporations. Nobody needs flu shots. One time I had the flu and I just drank orange juice until I realized a conditionless cure. Now I'm not addicted to pills or anything. Too many know-it-all doctors telling me I'm too stupid to cure myself and my body is too weak to heal itself.
Obviously there are tons of charlatans and cons, and being skeptical is a virtue. There are even intelligent criticisms to make against mindfulness - I've heard tons of them and sympathize with some. Your critique is uniformed and confused.
|
I don't think "mindfulness meditation" is working if you're bashing hippies. 
|
United Kingdom10021 Posts
On June 19 2015 19:58 xM(Z wrote:
- everything related to the physical is not a cult because it's backed by science;
- everything related to the psychological is a cult because no one really knows what's going on in there, inside our minds. sure there are some scientific(?) progresses but they are irrelevant if/when our minds lag behind.
So we should just give up on psychology and never promote any psychological practices because we aren't sure whether or stuff is going to be true when do finally understand it?
You are displaying quite breathtaking ignorance about psychology, neuropsychology and behavioural studies here, and are coming across like a Scientologist.
Fads will come about in the (relatively) early days of any field of study. If, for example, no-one practiced mindfulness because they weren't sure about the science of it, it would never have cause to be studied, and the field of psychology would then be lacking data as to its verifiability.
This is the very basics of how the scientific method works.
You are also dismissing actual significant evidence (like the study linked in the OP which shows that for 44% of people who took an MBCT course, there was no relapse into depression.).
Basically your criticism of this is even more 'cultish' than the practice itself, because you are ignoring evidence and sound scientific practice based on your own pre-existing prejudice.
EDIT:
At the same time though, I can kind of see where you're coming from, even if you do put it way too strongly. There is an element of 'fumbling around' and desperate searching for the latest psychological methods of easing suffering and mental illness. Fortunately for you, I can tell from your language that you've never suffered from depression or severe anxiety. These are genuine problems that cause huge amounts of suffering not only for the affected individual, but those around them too. There is a genuine need to find ways of combating addictions and mental illnesses and anything that helps is worthy of promotion IMO. This is especially true of things you can do in your own home, for free, and without the use drugs.
|
I've done the 10 day Vipassana meditation course. Meditation is very helpful with life. Vipassana (probably most methods) is about observing yourself objectively. Doing this will not only help you understand yourself better, but it will slowly make you less emotionally reactive to your situation and whatever happens to you, allowing you to make decisions at a higher level of consciousness. It is about letting go of the past and living in the present. For me, it has brought a lot more peace to myself and thus, also those around me. I feel a lot more empathetic and confident ever since is started (about a year ago, I meditate 30 mins everyday).
If anyone wants a taste of meditation I would recommend the Vipassana course (it is free, they accept donations), though I am sure there are plenty of other ways one can learn it.
|
On June 19 2015 02:54 puppykiller wrote:
No that is my point netherh. That self-proclaimed gurus discredit the lack there of of presence as a flaw in humanity. Thus if you posses a lack of presence, you are to them flawed (or fucked up) and now must follow there teachings.
Now I am not saying that this is done maliciously by gurus to exploit people for money. What I am saying though is that because the ancient practice of meditation has always exalted presence over other mind-states, so long as people are believing that they are lacking in some way (or can be convinced that they are), they are susceptible to becoming practitioners. This keeps the practice of mindfulness alive. If presence wasn't glorified epicly out of proportion to what it actually is and technology and modern ways of living weren't condemned so vehemently by the gurus (who are the ones that are actually judgmental), no one would give a fuck about the whole ordeal.
This does not apply to all meditation participants but it is one of the reasons I see the practice as a borderline cult phenomenon. I can see your point, these gurus shouldn't be judging us in the first place especially when meditation is meant to make you empathetic. I can also see some groups as being over the top as I use to meditate in groups but now do so alone. But I do think meditation is very useful to anyone and everyone, so if they get more people to do it in these ways (even if for money), I think it can be a good thing.
|
|
|
I am an atheist/agnostic but I listen to Buddhist talks and practise meditation and they have a very positive effect on so many things and I enjoy doing it every day. I am very happy with this development.
In this post I will address several issues that have been raised in this thread and some that have not.
There's no prayer or worshipping involved, this more like a philosophy than the standard Abrahamic religion. There's some chanting in Buddhism but I skip it. There are some spiritual elements but you can just ignore it and focus on the effective parts.
This is not escapist at all. There is no ignoring involved. The idea is to: Acknowledge, Forgive and Learn.
Somebody did something to you? Did you do something you regret? Acknowledge, Forgive and Learn from it.
Don't be in denial, don't torment yourself over it and take something away from it.
This is nothing hippie or cult-like. People have been meditating for millennia.
Personally I am fine with listening to scientists for proofs that it works but when it comes to actually how to practise it you should listen to a monk because they are the ones who actually renounced all possessions. They cannot have money, and don't indulge in sensory pleasures: cannot have sex (not even masturbate), don't listen to music etc. This is not about being weird, because the bliss of a good meditation is better than any sensory pleasure, and I can attest to that despite being a noob.
If somebody is arrogant and judges you, or has possesions and is some famous rich guru, or if he makes money giving talks around the world, he would not be the best meditation teacher
"Meditation exercise" is an oxymoron. People who say that probably don't know what they are doing. Meditation is the opposite of exercising.
I recommend googling Ajahn Brahm, because he came from a regular British working class family and went to Thailand to become a monk and then was sent to start a monastery in Australia. People from the west would find it easier to relate to a him than some Thai dude.
There are a lot of videos and mp3s and books (torrent them or download them from http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/
+ Show Spoiler +
All the best and feel free to message me if you need any help
|
Thank you to those sharing about Buddhist teachings, which is where psychology has shamefully appropriated this mindfulness fad. Taken out of it's context of the Dhamma, it does become rather suspect. The Buddha taught meditation (and moral discipline) as a means of transcending the rounds of life and death. If you don't believe in that purpose (which I doubt many of these psychologists and new agers do), then I don't see how you can claim to teach mindfulness.
I'm not an expert myself, but from what I understand, mindfulness is not about merely feeling relaxed or overcoming some temporary problem: it is about understanding the very nature of our existence, with the goal of transcending it.
|
On June 20 2015 03:40 Glowsphere wrote:
Thank you to those sharing about Buddhist teachings, which is where psychology has shamefully appropriated this mindfulness fad. Taken out of it's context of the Dhamma, it does become rather suspect. The Buddha taught meditation (and moral discipline) as a means of transcending the rounds of life and death. If you don't believe in that purpose (which I doubt many of these psychologists and new agers do), then I don't see how you can claim to teach mindfulness.
I'm not an expert myself, but from what I understand, mindfulness is not about merely feeling relaxed or overcoming some temporary problem: it is about understanding the very nature of our existence, with the goal of transcending it.
Personally I'd rather psychology study and embrace something that has been around for a long time and since it has been found to work, improve everybody's life, rather than giving people bad treatments.
I think they, like I would, are purposely avoiding mentioning Buddhism and transcending life and death because the idea might put people off, which is why I said that the spiritual part is completely unnecessary if it isn't your thing.
Meditation, when done correctly, can make your life better right now in this life.
Also, they probably don't know enough about meditation, which is completely normal, I'm fine as long as they are trying to learn and help people.
|
On June 19 2015 23:35 JieXian wrote:
Personally I am fine with listening to scientists for proofs that it works but when it comes to actually how to practise it you should listen to a monk because they are the ones who actually renounced all possessions. They cannot have money, and don't indulge in sensory pleasures: cannot have sex (not even masturbate), don't listen to music etc. This is not about being weird, because the bliss of a good meditation is better than any sensory pleasure, and I can attest to that despite being a noob.
Well, I don't care about money, but no sex or music? That's just unnatural. I think I'll stick to being a musician and a hippy... or hipster or something. XD
|
United Kingdom10021 Posts
On June 20 2015 03:40 Glowsphere wrote:
Thank you to those sharing about Buddhist teachings, which is where psychology has shamefully appropriated this mindfulness fad. Taken out of it's context of the Dhamma, it does become rather suspect. The Buddha taught meditation (and moral discipline) as a means of transcending the rounds of life and death. If you don't believe in that purpose (which I doubt many of these psychologists and new agers do), then I don't see how you can claim to teach mindfulness.
I'm not an expert myself, but from what I understand, mindfulness is not about merely feeling relaxed or overcoming some temporary problem: it is about understanding the very nature of our existence, with the goal of transcending it.
Mindfulness is adapted from a single type of meditation used in Buddhism. It is not the practice of transcendental meditation, which is something completely different. This is one of the common myths about mindfulness.
They are two different things. Mindfulness as it is taught by psychologists in the west is not a buddhist practice, but is adapted from buddhist practice to aim to help specific psychological problems.
I don't really understand all of the mistrust towards psychology.
You seem to be mixing up 'new age' with psychology, which is a very strange thing to do. Psychology is a scientific practice.
Confused :/
|
Cool thread. I've been practicing one form of meditation off and on since I was a kid. (Grew up in a hippy/cult-esque community). I left my home for college and stopped meditation completely for a few years. The contrast was pretty ridiculous though I'll admit that being away from home in an entirely new situation probably enhanced the feelings of depression and anxiety.
Fast forward to post college life, I've picked up meditation and yoga once again and my life has improved dramatically. Specifically, temper management, sleep cycles, general mental health and the ability to step back from situations have all become much more consistent things for me.
No I'm not a hippy cultist and no I don't partake in any form of religion. I'm just a freelance writer/artist, dota 2 tryhard who needs to take a step back from life when its overwhelming from time to time. Definitely prefer this way to downing a bottle of Jack Daniels or eating some pills like I used to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
