EPT'GTFO', New Documentary about Female Gamers - Page 56
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On March 18 2015 04:04 Plansix wrote: Asking women to prove they are harassed for being women online is like asking a someone who is black to prove they have been follow in a department store. That's untrue tho  Can we stop comparison with race every time ? | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
But i dont see germans making documentaries about it.... | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On March 18 2015 04:10 WhiteDog wrote: That's untrue tho Can we stop comparaison with race every time ? Well it's a easily made comparison because it concerns a large group of people that faces discrimination. But yes the comparison is invalid both in its dimensions and its historical and societal origins. | ||
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A3th3r
United States319 Posts
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silynxer
Germany439 Posts
I have a hard time believing that the "woman" would not, on average, receive considerably more negative attention (and probably positive as well but that's besides the point and another can of worms). Might depend a bit on the game. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On March 18 2015 04:24 silynxer wrote: Thought experiment (or rather experiment that you can do at home): Play any game with voice chat and let a man say "hi everyone" at the beginning and nothing else. Then at another time let a woman say the exact same at the beginning. I have a hard time believing that the "woman" would not, on average, receive considerably more negative attention (and probably positive as well but that's besides the point and another can of worms). Might depend a bit on the game. I have played plenty of games with voice chat that had women who were treated pretty much the same as dudes. (i notice you edited your post and I will agree, this probably mostly depends on the game - which ties into my next paragraph) I think im just gonna keep repeating what I said before: people aren't acknowledging that the majority of harassment in games is coming from kids. I'd love to hear people actually acknowledge this and then continue their argument of how this is a discrimination issue. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On March 18 2015 04:37 travis wrote: I have played plenty of games with voice chat that had women who were treated pretty much the same as dudes. (i notice you edited your post and I will agree, this probably mostly depends on the game - which ties into my next paragraph) I think im just gonna keep repeating what I said before: people aren't acknowledging that the majority of harassment in games is coming from kids. I'd love to hear people actually acknowledge this and then continue their argument of how this is a discrimination issue. Well it depends of what you define as a "kid". Additionally even "kids", provided they are older than 8 or 10 yo, should be aware of discrimination and the likes and shouldn't do these kinds of harassment themselves. If anything the fact that they're "kids" makes me pretty afraid, because "kids" are soon to be adults, and thus supposed to be responsible. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
On March 18 2015 04:37 travis wrote: I have played plenty of games with voice chat that had women who were treated pretty much the same as dudes. (i notice you edited your post and I will agree, this probably mostly depends on the game - which ties into my next paragraph) I think im just gonna keep repeating what I said before: people aren't acknowledging that the majority of harassment in games is coming from kids. I'd love to hear people actually acknowledge this and then continue their argument of how this is a discrimination issue. well i disagree that a significant majority of it does come from kids. I don't really have any reason to believe that, there are plenty of "adults" that are super bm all the time right? but even if it did it doesn't change the fact that the nature of the harassment is more often sexual with regards to women and i figure that's pretty unhealthy. and what about the girls who are "kids" as well? there is no age limit for when sexual harassment is okay. people arn't acknowledging that often a woman will get harassed just because she sounds like/has the name of a girl where a man will never get harassed just because he sounds like/has the name a boy. pending some female dominated game where this could hypothetically happen. I'd love to hear people actually acknowledge this and then continue their argument of how this is not a discrimination issue. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On March 18 2015 04:40 OtherWorld wrote: Well it depends of what you define as a "kid". Additionally even "kids", provided they are older than 8 or 10 yo, should be aware of discrimination and the likes and shouldn't do these kinds of harassment themselves. If anything the fact that they're "kids" makes me pretty afraid, because "kids" are soon to be adults, and thus supposed to be responsible. Well these tend to be people who have no experience in the real world, are physically and mentally immature, lack developed mental traits like compassion and empathy, cannot easily identify with or understand others, etc etc. I refer to them as "kids" because they are young enough that they have zero sway in the actual laws and policies that regulate society, largely because they know jack shit and say/believe really dumb stuff because of their lack of experience. This lack of experience points to why you might see a 13 year old calling random girls on battlefield dumb whores but then 4 years later they've grown up a little bit and they are respectable adults who treat others with respect. The fact that these "kids" have absolutely no power besides their words tells me that this isn't an issue of policy or discrimination, but rather an issue of the behavior of children. It's like this because there is no actual supervision. Which is why in games with bans and suspensions this isn't much of a problem. So what is my point? My point is that trying to say that women(or any other group) are "victims" is just silly in most cases. You are a victim of what? Some stupid little kid shit talking you? Please join the real world and block their chat. It's not right for anyone to have to face harrassment, and if the likelihood of that is higher because you are a woman then that sucks(I don't actually know if it is or not, it probably is) - but WE ARE TALKING ABOUT KIDS HERE. To paint "gamers" as being sexist, like - to actually call mature adults sexist because of the behavior of kids, is painting everyone in a bad light when it really just is not true at all. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 18 2015 04:49 ComaDose wrote: well i disagree that a significant majority of it does come from kids. I don't really have any reason to believe that, there are plenty of "adults" that are super bm all the time right? but even if it did it doesn't change the fact that the nature of the harassment is more often sexual with regards to women and i figure that's pretty unhealthy. and what about the girls who are "kids" as well? there is no age limit for when sexual harassment is okay. people arn't acknowledging that often a woman will get harassed just because she sounds like/has the name of a girl where a man will never get harassed just because he sounds like/has the name a boy. pending some female dominated game where this could hypothetically happen. I'd love to hear people actually acknowledge this and then continue their argument of how this is not a discrimination issue. This happens to one of my friends on twitter all the time. The harassers come out of the woodwork instant she changes her handled to her first name, puts her picture in the profile and posts anything about video games. For like three months she would switch back and forth just to see if it made a difference and it was like a switch. I don't even know how they found her, since no one really retweets her. It was super eye opening. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On March 18 2015 04:49 ComaDose wrote: well i disagree that a significant majority of it does come from kids. I don't really have any reason to believe that, there are plenty of "adults" that are super bm all the time right? Not really in a way that discriminates against women. I mean I am sure it sometimes happens but I have literally never seen it happen that I can remember, in like a lifetime of gaming. And I have gamed a lot with women. but even if it did it doesn't change the fact that the nature of the harassment is more often sexual with regards to women and i figure that's pretty unhealthy. and what about the girls who are "kids" as well? there is no age limit for when sexual harassment is okay. I agree! But this is another type of discussion entirely. You can't really hold the "gamer community" responsible for what parents let their kids do online. people arn't acknowledging that often a woman will get harassed just because she sounds like/has the name of a girl where a man will never get harassed just because he sounds like/has the name a boy. pending some female dominated game where this could hypothetically happen. I'd love to hear people actually acknowledge this and then continue their argument of how this is not a discrimination issue. I acknowledge that this is probably the case in some games, but it's not a discrimination "issue", it's just kids behaving badly. If you want to say that is a "discrimination issue" then whatever I guess, but it's a joke compared to actual discrimination. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
sorry just saw your post. example of adults being bm to specifically women are very common on women's twitch channels and threads about women. like all of them. no one is insulting every member of the gamer community but yeah the gamer community does exhibit this sexist attitude, i think more than but maybe just as much as the rest of society but that's not exactly a good excuse. how is kids behaving badly mutually exclusive from a discrimination issue. like how is women getting sexually harassed a joke compared to "actual discrimination" | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
What I really am getting at here is that most of these articles, and much of this discussion, paints gaming communities in a negative light - when it's really not gaming communities who do this shit, it's little kids. And I think the older the kids get the rarer this behavior becomes. I also really don't think it's that big of a deal, too. Just block the people like I do. Or play games in different communities. If there are solutions offered to make it better then that is great, I am all for that, because I do think it is wrong for anyone to be mistreated. But I haven't really seen much in the way of solutions I mostly just see complaining. On March 18 2015 05:00 ComaDose wrote: like how is women getting sexually harassed a joke compared to "actual discrimination" Because "actual discrimination", as I am labeling it, keeps people from accomplishing things in life. While what we are talking about is kids talking trash in a video game where you have to press a button to keep from hearing it. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
On March 18 2015 05:07 travis wrote: Well I think 17 years old might still be too young for some people. I think the changes where you start to mature mentally and have respect for people who are different from you happens for some people a little bit older than that. What I really am getting at here is that most of these articles, and much of this discussion, paints gaming communities in a negative light - when it's really not gaming communities who do this shit, it's little kids. And I think the older the kids get the rarer this behavior becomes. I also really don't think it's that big of a deal, too. Just block the people like I do. Or play games in different communities. If there are solutions offered to make it better then that is great, I am all for that, because I do think it is wrong for anyone to be mistreated. But I haven't really seen much in the way of solutions I mostly just see complaining. Because "actual discrimination", as I am labeling it, keeps people from accomplishing things in life. While what we are talking about is kids talking trash in a video game where you have to press a button to keep from hearing it. As a member of the same community i understand your desire to defend it. As someone who values being a member of this community i would feel discriminated against if i felt my way into it was barred by having to deal with more sexual harassment than most of the current members. This also happens in offline events where there is no mute button. I don't think that there is an age where it is appropriate and that 17 year olds make up a big enough part of this community that their behavior can be held accountable. The only solution ive offered is that this behavior needs to be discouraged by all us "mature" members that "know better" when it is no longer viewed as cool and acceptable people will stop doing it. no matter the age. smart 14 year olds should be telling the dumb 14 year olds to stop shitting up their games too. but there are a frightening number of people here who are borderline defending this behavior just because they put themselves on the opposite side of feminism. | ||
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Jelissei
193 Posts
On March 18 2015 02:45 xM(Z wrote: so is it worse to be a sexist flamer than to be a regular/normal flamer of women?. i don't get the distinction. i wouldn't care either way. Calling a woman a stupid bitch is different than calling her a dumb asshole. That's the whole point. But yes, I don't like flamers in general. Unless they're funny with it I guess. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
On March 18 2015 05:37 Jelissei wrote: Calling a woman a stupid bitch is different than calling her a dumb asshole. That's the whole point. But yes, I don't like flamers in general. Unless they're funny with it I guess. Not that i have too much experience with calling people names like that BUT I would most likely call a woman a dumb bitch and a man a dumb asshole... Asshole (and a ton of others) are just "insults for males" and bitch (and tons of others) for females. Ist that sexist? No, it isn't. Well, at least not if you don't belong to the insane "everything has to be 100% equal" crowd. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 18 2015 04:24 silynxer wrote: Thought experiment (or rather experiment that you can do at home): Play any game with voice chat and let a man say "hi everyone" at the beginning and nothing else. Then at another time let a woman say the exact same at the beginning. I have a hard time believing that the "woman" would not, on average, receive considerably more negative attention (and probably positive as well but that's besides the point and another can of worms). Might depend a bit on the game. It's a matter of what's revealed. If a guy with a southern accent says "hi ya'll", he's instaflamed for being a redneck. If the guy sounds ghetto as hell, he's flamed for being black, etc etc. On March 18 2015 05:37 Jelissei wrote: Calling a woman a stupid bitch is different than calling her a dumb asshole. That's the whole point. But yes, I don't like flamers in general. Unless they're funny with it I guess. The problem is you guys are equating flamers and trolls to regular people. If a homeless man on venice beach is randomly shouting profanities at everyone, what is the proper response? To try and reason with the man? lol, no. you just keep walking. | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On March 17 2015 03:07 Slaughter wrote: Your a moron who knows a little and thinks he knows a lot. You are simply ignorant and you really aren't worth it. You have no actual idea about the nuances of human biology and its plasticity, nor do you have any clue what different growth and developmental curves for males and females actually say in the context of our species life history. You are taking the lowest common denominator and justifying your stupidity. This is why they say a little knowledge can be dangerous. This right here is what is wrong with science + media. The media always latches on to whatever seems sexy and ignores if it is bad science or not. There has been almost limitless literature that touch on the Nature v Nurture in relation to differences between the sexes. Guess what ones get most of the play? The bad science that makes tantalizing claims. We talk about harassment and there is this, i am not an old member, i dont know if insulting is allowed in this website and dont even know how to report, yet. We should not be allowed to insult anyone even if he / she talks completely wrong or just because we dont agree. Also, it is so nice to see that you have outstanding courage to use such words. Im hoping you would say exactly the same words when you see someone in your real-life, mister Slaughter my ass. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On March 18 2015 03:47 Velr wrote: No. People online get flamed. No matter and not because of the gender. The flamers just adjust their flames based on their knowlede about the target. There is 0 need for a distinction. Except there is a distinction, and our societies make that distinction - for good reasons. If a white person starts insulting a black person and calls him a "dumb nigger asshole", it will not be seen as the same thing as if that person had called him a "dumb asshole". According to your brilliant argument, the person insulting "just adjusted his insults based on their knowledge about the target". Yet that doesn't change the fact that insulting the black person through his skin color introduced a racist component in the insult. Likewise, if a homosexual gets called a "dumb cock-sucking faggot asshole" by a straight person who knows he's a homosexual, the negative reference to the sexuality of the homosexual getting insulted will have introduced a homophobic component in the insult. The same applies to sexist insults targeting women through them being women. I have yet to see a man attacked online for being a man, and even if it happens it certainly does not happen even remotely as often as women get attacked through negative referencing to their identity as women. If another guy insults the masculinity of a straight man, although also abuse, it is still completely different than attacking that man for being a man. So, now that we've highlighted this distinction, let's make something else clear: being targeted negatively for being part of a group which is already discriminated against in our societies is harder than being on the receiving end of generic insults for two reasons. First, it's harder because it targets your identity specifically. If you get told "I hope you get raped" when you're a guy who's never had any fear of being raped in his life, it's much easier to shrug off the insult than if you're a person who's been raped in the past, or who lives knowing there's a very real possibility of them getting raped if they're not careful in many situations. If you get told "I hope you die from cancer" and you don't have cancer/don't consider yourself likely to get cancer, it just won't have much of an effect on you. If you actually have cancer, that's a very different story. If you get told "go eat fried chicken you nigger monkey" as a white person, chances are it won't have much of an effect on you either, while if you're black that's an attack directly targeting a core element of how you define your identity (your skin color). Second, being part of a group that is discriminated against/in a position of weakness in our societies (to whatever degree), insults targeting you for being part of that group only serve to highlight further this position. You are reminded that you are part of a group which, at the systemic level, is not the "normal", dominant group. It is therefore utterly dishonest to pretend that all insults are equal regardless of who is being targeted and why. Saying that "everyone gets insulted" completely misses the point. This being said, something else has to be mentioned: women, homosexuals, non-whites, etc., have not exactly been waiting for some posters' brilliant insight to "ignore the insults". Of course they are trying to not let these insults affect them too much or at all - they don't need your advice for that. But what they're also trying to do is denounce such sexist, homophobic, racist insults and the exclusion dynamics that accompany them, in order to fight them and hopefully make them progressively less socially acceptable, and ultimately rarer, in social arenas such as video games. How exactly is that not a positive thing? Stop condescendingly telling them to "grow thicker skins", recognize that many have not exactly waited for you to learn not to let insults affect them, and recognize also that they've gone beyond that to attempt to actually push back against the sexism, homophobia, and racism that they've been facing - which, I'll have you know, is actually more impressive and difficult than simply ignoring a problem. And this push back against sexism and other forms of discrimination/hate speech is something everyone should be happy about. On March 18 2015 03:53 WhiteDog wrote: You can't prove that tho (it's a question of intention). Some people here believe some people would insult anybody on the internet, it's just that when they know that they are facing a woman, they adjust their insults to their target(s). First, women do get targeted by some people simply for being women in what these people consider to be an arena that should be under the control of men. This happens in the real world as well. Second, with regards to your "adjusted insults" comment, see above. | ||
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