On January 08 2015 02:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: This should fuel the far right even more in Europe.
I hope it does. I'm about as socialist as it gets, but this moral relativism bullshit that has infected Europe will continue to allow for this kind of stuff to happen. You can't just label this as another perspective and move on, patting yourself on the back for being tolerant. France did just fine prior to their influx of immigration. If this is how they are rewarded for their generosity, than I can't imagine them continuing to be. It's sad to realize people will still insist Islam has nothing to do with this. What the fuck is France supposed to do? They are under attack.
On January 08 2015 02:12 SoSexy wrote:
On January 08 2015 02:10 Grettin wrote:
On January 08 2015 02:09 pretender58 wrote:
On January 08 2015 02:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: This should fuel the far right even more in Europe.
Sadly. e.g. "Pegida" in Germany but especially the already strong "Front National" in France
Wasn't the 'head' of National Front supposed to speak or release a statement to the public hours ago? Is it available somewhere..
I would greatly appreciate a translation.
And I greatly appreciate your post.
Last time I said this I was banned for two weeks, but you can't just pretend this has nothing to do with Islam. Yes, these acts are perpetrated by extremists, but at the same time, this is exactly what the religious manifest of three billion people dictates.
The fact that most of these three billion people are sane, non-violent and decent people changes nothing about the fact that subversion, violence and suppression against non-Muslims are exactly what the Quran dictates.
I have never read the Quran, but from hearing from others, actions like this are highly frowned upon.
The only reason ISIS gets any support in the region is that ISIS government, whilst ruling by fear, is at least more stable than what Iraq and Syria used to be.
Muslims all over the world condemn this kind of behavior and I'm pretty sure the Quran says nothing about slaughtering innocent people for not believing in the Islam. Islam is a lot more familiar to Christianity/Judism than we usually think.
Also the 3 billion stat is pulled out of your arse.
Actions like what? Killing over Muhammad drawings? Because when the originals were first published, there were riots (of regular Muslims) all over the world and 200+ innocents were killed. Or you mean that the Quran in itself frowns on those actions? Because if the Quran doesn't call for a punishment for depicting muhammad, it (much like every other religious book) does for a lot of pretty mild stuff. You might think that Muslims don't take those commands literally or don't want it to be applied as law but you would be wrong. This is an article using polls about sharia and Islam in general in the general population of Islamic countries:
As you can see for example in Egypt, 74% think the Sharia should be the law of the land and be applied to muslim and non muslim alike, 81% think stoning is the adequate punishment for adultery and 86% think death should be applied for anyone leaving Islam.
The idea that Muslims all over the world are mostly the same as the rest of us and only the extremists view the world in such a distorted way is unfortunately wrong.
User was temp banned for this post.
Why ban? seemed pretty civil.
derailing the thread despite multiple warnigngs about it. also probably mods trying to keep this thread from getting so bad they have to close it. if you still have questions website feedbacks your best place to go for a better answer. and yes it was one study used to support a pretty outlandish premise
On January 08 2015 04:17 Incognoto wrote: Terrorist attacks happen all the time, 10 people dead isn't a lot. It's kind of harsh that this attack would cause such an uproar when there are so many similar incidents in other parts in the world that people just don't care about. I guess if you're from Africa or Asia your death is somehow not as relevant as when westerners die. If you don't care about the massacre of 100 children in Pakistan then I don't see why you would care about the death of a couple of cartoonists. Maybe I'm just numb that people don't give a shit about anything other than what they can see through their iPhone or Facebook.
Maybe because it's not through your phone or facebook but in front of your nose, and will bring people to finally realise what's happening elsewhere ? It's the worst terror attack in the last 50years in France as far as body count go.
The point is not their death, it's WHY they died. Because they made a drawing in a country where freedom of speech is paramount. The fact that they can strike that far inside our country is the point. Going to such length for such a petty reason shows their folly, and will maybe make people realise more.
This is terrible, however, it was caused by their disrespect. Im not defending the terrorist, but what i mean with this is that Charlie Hebdo didn't respect the believes of the muslims, whch is not a smart thing to do knowing how a lot of them are radical. The terrorist then didn't repect Charlie Hebdo rights to express themselves and their rights to live, which of course is a way more serious problem.
Anyway, my condolensces to the family of the people who died and i hope that the terrorist are caught.
On January 08 2015 02:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: This should fuel the far right even more in Europe.
I hope it does. I'm about as socialist as it gets, but this moral relativism bullshit that has infected Europe will continue to allow for this kind of stuff to happen. You can't just label this as another perspective and move on, patting yourself on the back for being tolerant. France did just fine prior to their influx of immigration. If this is how they are rewarded for their generosity, than I can't imagine them continuing to be. It's sad to realize people will still insist Islam has nothing to do with this. What the fuck is France supposed to do? They are under attack.
On January 08 2015 02:12 SoSexy wrote:
On January 08 2015 02:10 Grettin wrote:
On January 08 2015 02:09 pretender58 wrote:
On January 08 2015 02:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: This should fuel the far right even more in Europe.
Sadly. e.g. "Pegida" in Germany but especially the already strong "Front National" in France
Wasn't the 'head' of National Front supposed to speak or release a statement to the public hours ago? Is it available somewhere..
Last time I said this I was banned for two weeks, but you can't just pretend this has nothing to do with Islam. Yes, these acts are perpetrated by extremists, but at the same time, this is exactly what the religious manifest of three billion people dictates.
The fact that most of these three billion people are sane, non-violent and decent people changes nothing about the fact that subversion, violence and suppression against non-Muslims are exactly what the Quran dictates.
I have never read the Quran, but from hearing from others, actions like this are highly frowned upon.
The only reason ISIS gets any support in the region is that ISIS government, whilst ruling by fear, is at least more stable than what Iraq and Syria used to be.
Muslims all over the world condemn this kind of behavior and I'm pretty sure the Quran says nothing about slaughtering innocent people for not believing in the Islam. Islam is a lot more familiar to Christianity/Judism than we usually think.
Also the 3 billion stat is pulled out of your arse.
Actions like what? Killing over Muhammad drawings? Because when the originals were first published, there were riots (of regular Muslims) all over the world and 200+ innocents were killed. Or you mean that the Quran in itself frowns on those actions? Because if the Quran doesn't call for a punishment for depicting muhammad, it (much like every other religious book) does for a lot of pretty mild stuff. You might think that Muslims don't take those commands literally or don't want it to be applied as law but you would be wrong. This is an article using polls about sharia and Islam in general in the general population of Islamic countries:
As you can see for example in Egypt, 74% think the Sharia should be the law of the land and be applied to muslim and non muslim alike, 81% think stoning is the adequate punishment for adultery and 86% think death should be applied for anyone leaving Islam.
The idea that Muslims all over the world are mostly the same as the rest of us and only the extremists view the world in such a distorted way is unfortunately wrong.
User was temp banned for this post.
Why ban? seemed pretty civil.
Saying that most Muslims view the world the same way blood-thirsty extremists do is not very civil.
On January 08 2015 02:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: This should fuel the far right even more in Europe.
I hope it does. I'm about as socialist as it gets, but this moral relativism bullshit that has infected Europe will continue to allow for this kind of stuff to happen. You can't just label this as another perspective and move on, patting yourself on the back for being tolerant. France did just fine prior to their influx of immigration. If this is how they are rewarded for their generosity, than I can't imagine them continuing to be. It's sad to realize people will still insist Islam has nothing to do with this. What the fuck is France supposed to do? They are under attack.
On January 08 2015 02:12 SoSexy wrote:
On January 08 2015 02:10 Grettin wrote:
On January 08 2015 02:09 pretender58 wrote:
On January 08 2015 02:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: This should fuel the far right even more in Europe.
Sadly. e.g. "Pegida" in Germany but especially the already strong "Front National" in France
Wasn't the 'head' of National Front supposed to speak or release a statement to the public hours ago? Is it available somewhere..
Last time I said this I was banned for two weeks, but you can't just pretend this has nothing to do with Islam. Yes, these acts are perpetrated by extremists, but at the same time, this is exactly what the religious manifest of three billion people dictates.
The fact that most of these three billion people are sane, non-violent and decent people changes nothing about the fact that subversion, violence and suppression against non-Muslims are exactly what the Quran dictates.
I have never read the Quran, but from hearing from others, actions like this are highly frowned upon.
The only reason ISIS gets any support in the region is that ISIS government, whilst ruling by fear, is at least more stable than what Iraq and Syria used to be.
Muslims all over the world condemn this kind of behavior and I'm pretty sure the Quran says nothing about slaughtering innocent people for not believing in the Islam. Islam is a lot more familiar to Christianity/Judism than we usually think.
Also the 3 billion stat is pulled out of your arse.
Actions like what? Killing over Muhammad drawings? Because when the originals were first published, there were riots (of regular Muslims) all over the world and 200+ innocents were killed. Or you mean that the Quran in itself frowns on those actions? Because if the Quran doesn't call for a punishment for depicting muhammad, it (much like every other religious book) does for a lot of pretty mild stuff. You might think that Muslims don't take those commands literally or don't want it to be applied as law but you would be wrong. This is an article using polls about sharia and Islam in general in the general population of Islamic countries:
As you can see for example in Egypt, 74% think the Sharia should be the law of the land and be applied to muslim and non muslim alike, 81% think stoning is the adequate punishment for adultery and 86% think death should be applied for anyone leaving Islam.
The idea that Muslims all over the world are mostly the same as the rest of us and only the extremists view the world in such a distorted way is unfortunately wrong.
User was temp banned for this post.
Why ban? seemed pretty civil.
Probably because the conclusion you should draw as a result of that post is that Islam is a scumbag religion? It's an insulting and generalizing opinion with poor "proof" to boot.
This event makes me sad, angry but primarily sad. These attackers aren't stupid, this whole "Islam beating the west" narrative is something I just don't buy. Personally I think they want to polarize western society and make us start persecuting Muslims, forcing Muslims to adopt the extremist ways. What makes me sad is I think they are succeeding and are going to cause a lot more pain in the long run.
On January 08 2015 04:22 [SXG]Phantom wrote: This is terrible, however, it was caused by their disrespect. Im not defending the terrorist, but what i mean with this is that Charlie Hebdo didn't respect the believes of the muslims, whch is not a smart thing to do knowing how a lot of them are radical. The terrorist then didn't repect Charlie Hebdo rights to express themselves and their rights to live, which of course is a way more serious problem.
Anyway, my condolensces to the family of the people who died and i hope that the terrorist are caught.
Your way of thinking this through is wrong. To not let the extremists win, it IS important not to respect their beliefs. Someone who can't take humor or criticism is always wrong. Even the pope mourned for them, when they had been WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY harsher with christianity than islam (and I mean it). Even French politics gave them Legion d'Honneur for their drawings, when they shit over the same politicians time and time again. It was HUMOUR. Sarcastic, satiric humour, but still.
On January 08 2015 04:22 [SXG]Phantom wrote: This is terrible, however, it was caused by their disrespect. Im not defending the terrorist, but what i mean with this is that Charlie Hebdo didn't respect the believes of the muslims, whch is not a smart thing to do knowing how a lot of them are radical. The terrorist then didn't repect Charlie Hebdo rights to express themselves and their rights to live, which of course is a way more serious problem.
Anyway, my condolensces to the family of the people who died and i hope that the terrorist are caught.
That's a pretty dangerous comment to make.
The whole point is that the Charlie Hebdo people didn't fear the retaliation of Extremst Muslims. They have freedom of speech and under our laws, they did nothing wrong.
The difference between the possible disrespect from CH and the disrespect from the terrorist is that only one of those goes against the most important law in our civilization.
On January 08 2015 04:17 Incognoto wrote: Terrorist attacks happen all the time, 10 people dead isn't a lot. It's kind of harsh that this attack would cause such an uproar when there are so many similar incidents in other parts in the world that people just don't care about. I guess if you're from Africa or Asia your death is somehow not as relevant as when westerners die. If you don't care about the massacre of 100 children in Pakistan then I don't see why you would care about the death of a couple of cartoonists. Maybe I'm just numb that people don't give a shit about anything other than what they can see through their iPhone or Facebook.
Maybe because it's not through your phone or facebook but in front of your nose, and will bring people to finally realise what's happening elsewhere ? It's the worst terror attack in the last 50years in France as far as body count go.
The point is not their death, it's WHY they died. Because they made a drawing in a country where freedom of speech is paramount. The fact that they can strike that far inside our country is the point. Going to such length for such a petty reason shows their folly, and will maybe make people realise more.
I think the reason people care about this more than say Pakistan as that as the fact that people naturally care more about groups that are similar to themselves. Also there are probably very few Tl users in Pakistan or Afrika. and the reason people react to this is that is could probably happen to them. Wether fair or not Pakistan and places seem like another world to most people.
On January 08 2015 04:17 Incognoto wrote: Terrorist attacks happen all the time, 10 people dead isn't a lot. It's kind of harsh that this attack would cause such an uproar when there are so many similar incidents in other parts in the world that people just don't care about. I guess if you're from Africa or Asia your death is somehow not as relevant as when westerners die. If you don't care about the massacre of 100 children in Pakistan then I don't see why you would care about the death of a couple of cartoonists. Maybe I'm just numb that people don't give a shit about anything other than what they can see through their iPhone or Facebook.
E: Just to clarify I obviously don't condone these attacks. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth that incidents such as these are needed to remind people of the state the world is in right now.
That's kind of what I thought too. While the attack made me feel sick, and it's obviously awful because of both the killing and the target, it's still a very small thing compared to what happens elsewhere daily. Also, I felt like people and medias were terribly quick to take for granted the fact that muslim extremists instigated the attack (which should be the case, but you never know). Anyway, it's really scary for the future. Extremes have already been on the rise for a while, and this will only worsen things.
On January 08 2015 04:22 [SXG]Phantom wrote: This is terrible, however, it was caused by their disrespect. Im not defending the terrorist, but what i mean with this is that Charlie Hebdo didn't respect the believes of the muslims, whch is not a smart thing to do knowing how a lot of them are radical. The terrorist then didn't repect Charlie Hebdo rights to express themselves and their rights to live, which of course is a way more serious problem.
Anyway, my condolensces to the family of the people who died and i hope that the terrorist are caught.
That's a pretty dangerous comment to make.
The whole point is that the Charlie Hebdo people didn't fear the retaliation of Extremst Muslims. They have freedom of speech and under our laws, they did nothing wrong.
The difference between the possible disrespect from CH and the disrespect from the terrorist is that only one of those goes against the most important law in our civilization.
I think it would have been better if he said he didn't respect what they were capable of and what they were willing to do in retaliation. The whole not respecting their beliefs I think is a bit of an exaggeration.
In a perfect world they would have had full right to produce the cartoons and Islamic groups would have also had a full right to be offended.
They have the right to feel offended, offcourse they do. Some of those pictures are pretty harsh. HOWEVER - feeling offended doesn't come close to justifying the occurrences of today.
On January 08 2015 03:23 Grumbels wrote: I really don't understand the motivation for this attack. The fixation on cartoonists is one of the weirdest things about this branch of Muslim terrorism and I don't understand the logic behind the targeting at all. I'm going to chalk it up to some notion that terrorists are not the most, er, clear-minded of individuals, but I would still like to have a better idea of what motivates them. Like, the 9/11 attack was at least logical from the pov of a terrorist.
I know that you're not supposed to criticize the prophet and make drawings of him and whatnot, but that doesn't seem enough reason to obsess about cartoonists. Maybe it's just random? Some group at one point decided to target cartoonists and then, lacking creativity, other terrorists just decided to go with that? It's just so weird.
Condolences to the victim's families, in any case.
It does seem to be almost a stereotypical point of friction for continental Europe and portions of its Muslim community, it was a Danish cartoonist a few years ago was it not?
Maybe history has muddled my perception of events but the public reaction to the Danish cartoons was quite different to what we're seeing now. Denmark is a smaller country than France also. The media wouldn't even really reprint the cartoons to see what any of the fuss was about. Also it was kind of an international political tool if you remember the boycotts and money put on the cartoonists heads and the attacks on embassies and the way political leaders in like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan were able to rile people up with anti-western sentiments and the ongoing public discourse about blasphemy.
That seems harder to do in this case since people were murdered at the outset. The cartoons are much more visible here and people seem to be showing a lot more solidarity. Basically it looks like once murder happens the public strongly and quickly realizes how heinous it is to murder people over something like this. And it's really amazing to see an attack like this which is meant to instill fear have the opposite effect.
Except for some scum on Twitter who can't help but blame the victims:
Yeah late reply but the pig farmer context, a Muslim group drew said picture and distributed it to fan the flames before the Danish newspaper published the cartoons which caused the riots.
Anyways, media is saying a hand signal was used during the attack?
On January 08 2015 04:33 SC2Toastie wrote: They have the right to feel offended, offcourse they do. Some of those pictures are pretty harsh. HOWEVER - feeling offended doesn't come close to justifying the occurrences of today.
I completely agree with you and sorry if that wasn't clear.
On January 08 2015 04:26 Saumure wrote: Look guys, an israeli media found the identity of the terrorists before the police. The media claims that they are algerian immigrants.
So first Blacks with Al-Qaeda Yemen ties, then Russians & Syrian immigrants and now Algerian immigrants. Why don't we just wait for the absolute official statement, whenever this whole thing is solved.
On January 08 2015 04:34 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Anyways, media is saying a hand signal was used during the attack?
That was CNN's "investigators" who said there was a signal in play, nothing more than that confirmed as far as i know..
On January 08 2015 04:17 Incognoto wrote: Terrorist attacks happen all the time, 10 people dead isn't a lot. It's kind of harsh that this attack would cause such an uproar when there are so many similar incidents in other parts in the world that people just don't care about. I guess if you're from Africa or Asia your death is somehow not as relevant as when westerners die. If you don't care about the massacre of 100 children in Pakistan then I don't see why you would care about the death of a couple of cartoonists. Maybe I'm just numb that people don't give a shit about anything other than what they can see through their iPhone or Facebook.
E: Just to clarify I obviously don't condone these attacks. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth that incidents such as these are needed to remind people of the state the world is in right now.
This kind of attack is different then for example blowing up some bus or train or a random building. Because this attack not only killed random people who just happened to be there. They targeted specific people, they targeted satirical media, they targeted freedom of speech itself with this attack. This was a targeted execution, an attack on liberty itself and the freedom of press.
And of course it is more important to us because this happened in Europe, at home, and not somewhere halfway around the world. Its only natural and human to be more engaged in these things the closer they are to home.
EPT
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