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On October 11 2017 19:47 SMaD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2017 17:02 Godwrath wrote:On October 11 2017 11:38 Nyxisto wrote:
austerity is a political measure, but also is not really a synonym for populism, because some countries were hit by populism without actually practicing a lot of austerity at all, while countries like Spain or Portugal actually have not seen a rise in extremism.
The larger point, the uncertainty, is not going to go a way. It's not a feature of neoliberalism, it's a feature of technological change. People will not just work one job all of their life, their will not be a strong separation between work and home, women now enjoy a large degree of autonomy meaning that the nuclear family is not the only model around, and so forth. All of this is not going to be put back into the bottle. We have some in Spain, not to speak a good chunk of our population at the brink of secession, but yeah man, everything is going fine. If you think what is going on in Catalonia is not a direct result of the austerity measures poorly handled, you have been missing a lot. But then i have to ask you, why do you think populism is on the rise? And what are the goverments doing to make people "populists resistant"? FTFY If you think what is going on in Catalonia IS a direct result of the austerity measures poorly handled, you have been missing a lot.
Sure pal, because catalonian budget trimming from the state and catalonian's goverment will to continue with their social services spending had nothing to do with it. Do i need to point out again how the PP-CiU ball started to roll?
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On October 11 2017 19:26 Godwrath wrote:
Because life is not neccesarily better than 20-30 years ago? Prospects of future uncertain, buying property gone out of the window, salaries in the same lvl or worse than 20 years ago while costs had adjusted to inflation are some examples i can give you, for starters.
Thirty years ago was the eighties. While not a bad time to live in when compared to the last couple of centuries, I'm pretty sure life now is preferable to life back then. Lower crimerates, higher wealth, better healthcare, advancements in science etc.
I also have to disagree with your examples of current problems. The prospects of the future have never been certain. Buying a house is certainly not 'out of the window'. Lots of normal people buy a house. The comparison between salary and costs is hard to make accuratly as there are a lot of goods now that didn't exist decades ago. My guess is that the average person has more wealth now than they did in the eighties.
I mean, don't get me wrong. There is plenty still wrong in the world. But let's also remember that we are blessed to live in the best time in the entire human history.
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On October 11 2017 19:51 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2017 19:47 SMaD wrote:On October 11 2017 17:02 Godwrath wrote:On October 11 2017 11:38 Nyxisto wrote:
austerity is a political measure, but also is not really a synonym for populism, because some countries were hit by populism without actually practicing a lot of austerity at all, while countries like Spain or Portugal actually have not seen a rise in extremism.
The larger point, the uncertainty, is not going to go a way. It's not a feature of neoliberalism, it's a feature of technological change. People will not just work one job all of their life, their will not be a strong separation between work and home, women now enjoy a large degree of autonomy meaning that the nuclear family is not the only model around, and so forth. All of this is not going to be put back into the bottle. We have some in Spain, not to speak a good chunk of our population at the brink of secession, but yeah man, everything is going fine. If you think what is going on in Catalonia is not a direct result of the austerity measures poorly handled, you have been missing a lot. But then i have to ask you, why do you think populism is on the rise? And what are the goverments doing to make people "populists resistant"? FTFY If you think what is going on in Catalonia IS a direct result of the austerity measures poorly handled, you have been missing a lot. Sure pal, because catalonian budget trimming from the state and catalonian's goverment will to continue with their social services spending had nothing to do with it. Do i need to point out again how the PP-CiU ball started to roll?
Everyone knows that the turning point in Catalan independentism was the fact that Spanish government/authorities did not approve the "Statute of Autonomy" (that had been already approved by the Catalan government) back in 2006 when Zapatero had promised that he would approve it. Catalans felt betrayed by this and then the independetism started to arise, not the austerity measures that you suggest.
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Since itseems certain you did not understand what i said (probably my fault), let me ask you this. If austerity policies wouldn't be put in place, and the catalonian goverment had not to.subsidize the parts of spain that had not fully recovered while being harshly punished on their social budget, do you still think that we would ve in the same exact situation anyways? don't you agree that austerity policies helped to keep the ball rolling or even accelerate ?
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To break away a bit from the Spanish question, what do you guys think about the UK census proposal of removing 'sex' in their next survey (2021)?
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On October 11 2017 20:49 SoSexy wrote:
To break away a bit from the Spanish question, what do you guys think about the UK census proposal of removing 'sex' in their next survey (2021)?
Not a lot. The UK should join those developed nations of EUROSTAT who have gotten rid of this costly and time-intense survey procedure and start a register based process. I'm pretty sure a state like the UK that is spending tons of money into the surveillance of their own people has all the data they need in their police, tax, housing, firm, family, immigration, birth or other registers.
If you like you can then remove the "Sex"-column from the endresult in your presentation, the data is still going to be there anyways.
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On October 11 2017 06:17 Plansix wrote:
From America land, is Catalunya capable of providing basic services to the people who live there? Or will they have to buy power and pretty much all basic goods from Spain?
Their economy is based mainly of Bank power and Turism but they have an strong industry compared to the rest of Spain. Their biggest problem if they declare independence is the law insecurity and that independence also means a kind of brexit but harder since catalonia uses euro as well as the rest of Spain.
Edit: and yeah the main reason independence movement arised so hard is the suspension of the Statute of Autonomy, but also the independence leaders used the crisis economic cuts as an excuse to make the population believe that those cuts would not have happened in Catalonia if they were independent.
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To come back on the EU flag and this grotesque horseshoe theory:
1) The French Constitution recognizes only the blue-white-red flag.
2) In 2007, the bureau of the Assemblée had refused to put the EU flag in the hémicycle. At this time there were pretty much only social-democrats and conservatives in the Assemblée: the ancestors of the "extreme populists"?
3) The acknowledgement of the EU flag was part of the 2005 TCE referendum, which was refused.
4) Mélenchon wrote some press release in which he says he doesn't want the EU flag because he consider that its Christian symbolic is not compatible with our laïcité.
Funnily enough, yesterday some far-right députée suggested that the white flag of the monarchy should be put back in the Assemblée. One side suggests the UN flag, the other wants the monarchy by divine right (= the very religious symbol refused by Mélenchon) flag: SO MUCH HORSESHOE, RIGHT?
What about voters?
+ Show Spoiler +
Out of 100 Mélenchon voters, 7 voted for Le Pen in the second round, vs 20 for Fillon (mainstream right) and 30 for Dupont-Aignan (sovereignist right). It's almost like the far-right is closer to... the right! than to the (radical) left. What a surprise?
Nyxisto, you seem to understand French? If yes, I suggest you read this: https://jean-jaures.org/blog/entre-france-insoumise-et-front-national-de-solides-divergences (“Between the Unsubmissive France and the National Front, solid divergences”)
Extract: “The fifth wave of the inquiry on French fractures shows that those two electorates agree on nothing or almost nothing.”
+ Show Spoiler +
P. S. — Who's closer to the far-right? 
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/471672-european-politico-economics-qa-mega-thread?page=941#18808
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/471672-european-politico-economics-qa-mega-thread?page=941#18811
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On October 11 2017 20:49 SoSexy wrote:
To break away a bit from the Spanish question, what do you guys think about the UK census proposal of removing 'sex' in their next survey (2021)?
Is there value in knowing relative sex populations? My understanding is that there actually are some important results of proper ratios. But this is never really a problem in developed countries, right? This is just an issue when under developed countries are only keeping newborn males, right?
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On October 12 2017 01:04 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2017 20:49 SoSexy wrote:
To break away a bit from the Spanish question, what do you guys think about the UK census proposal of removing 'sex' in their next survey (2021)? Is there value in knowing relative sex populations? My understanding is that there actually are some important results of proper ratios. But this is never really a problem in developed countries, right? This is just an issue when under developed countries are only keeping newborn males, right?
Accurate information about the population is always important as a way to track trends and anticipate the need for services.
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I'm aware that the radical left and right don't hold the same beliefs. The left isn't racist, the left wants a society based on solidarity and so forth and if I'd have to choose between the two I'd vote for the left, but it's the style or how they frame politics that gets me, and there the lines are more blurry.
It's actually hinted at in the article you posted, too. The demand for authority is strongest with the FN but growing among FI, and there's a substantial group of people within FI that rejects democracy as it currently exists. The tendency to reject the political process, take it to the streets and mobilise forces outside of normal democratic channels exists for both movements.
And given how fluid we've become on political issues themselves, the way we conduct politics I'd say is fairly important. I think this rift also shows even between the Communists in France and the FI. When Mélenchon seemed to indicate that he wanted abstain in the general elections, he got into a fight with the commies over it who much more strongly rejected the right. Also Mélenchon's highly personalised campaign (holograms? lol) seemed to me to use the same tactics for example Trump used.
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On October 12 2017 03:32 Nyxisto wrote:I'm aware that the radical left and right don't hold the same beliefs. The left isn't racist, the left wants a society based on solidarity and so forth and if I'd have to choose between the two I'd vote for the left, but it's the style or how they frame politics that gets me, and there the lines are more blurry. It's actually hinted at in the article you posted, too. The demand for authority is strongest with the FN but growing among FI, and there's a substantial group of people within FI that rejects democracy as it currently exists. The tendency to reject the political process, take it to the streets and mobilise forces outside of normal democratic channels exists for both movements. And given how fluid we've become on political issues themselves, the way we conduct politics I'd say is fairly important. I think this rift also shows even between the Communists in France and the FI. When Mélenchon seemed to indicate that he wanted abstain in the general elections, he got into a fight with the commies over it who much more strongly rejected the right. Also Mélenchon's highly personalised campaign (holograms? lol) seemed to me to use the same tactics for example Trump used.
The problem with the far left nowadays is the adoption of a "with us or against us" perspective. Though this is mostly found in issues surrounding race. Both sides, as I see it, lack tact and patience. Far ___ positions tend to focus on "enough is enough" sorts of stuff.
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On October 12 2017 03:32 Nyxisto wrote:I'm aware that the radical left and right don't hold the same beliefs. The left isn't racist, the left wants a society based on solidarity and so forth and if I'd have to choose between the two I'd vote for the left, but it's the style or how they frame politics that gets me, and there the lines are more blurry. It's actually hinted at in the article you posted, too. The demand for authority is strongest with the FN but growing among FI,
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/eECcQ8p.jpg)
Hard to tell with a sub-sample of 90-100 people at most. Could be statistical noise. At any rate you can see that FI sympathizers are far from the 90%+ people from the far-right, the right and even the "centre" who agree with this "we need a strong man" horror. From that, you can actually see that the democratic culture is more advanced in the radical left than in other currents. (Another evidence with the fact that only the radical left was fully against the new permanent state of emergency, other parties did not care for public liberties.)
and there's a substantial group of people within FI that rejects democracy as it currently exists. The tendency to reject the political process, take it to the streets and mobilise forces outside of normal democratic channels exists for both movements.
Those FI people reject our non-representative democracy and want a more democratic system (VIth Republic with a Constituent Assembly)... not a more authoritarian one like FN sympathizers do.
Street demonstrations fully belong to the "normal democratic channels" and are a classic for every left-wing party in France, including social-democrats who were in the street against Chirac or Sarkozy a few years ago, when they were in the opposition and still represented the left alternative.
(And no, the FN does not demonstrate; at least not on social questions.)
And given how fluid we've become on political issues themselves, the way we conduct politics I'd say is fairly important. I think this rift also shows even between the Communists in France and the FI. When Mélenchon seemed to indicate that he wanted abstain in the general elections, he got into a fight with the commies over it who much more strongly rejected the right. Also Mélenchon's highly personalised campaign (holograms? lol) seemed to me to use the same tactics for example Trump used.
Macron's campaign was centered around his providential image, the young dynamic man who isn't a professional politician and who's going to reform this country while shaking off the old establishment... fairly sure he's the one closer to Trump in that regard. But of course he was never called populist...
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There is a long history of racist propaganda talking a bout washing the black off or bleaching skin. That being black is dirty and being white is clean I wouldn't say the ad is racist. But it recreates some of that imaginary, which some people do not like. It flies to close to the sun.
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You don't vote for political parties based on Dove television advertisements?
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That's some fancy soap of it turns you from white to black to Arab? Tiny mobile screen so I didn't see it properly l.
That fuss could've easily been avoided if they changed the order to white black Arab or whatever.
It rings true that the whole black to white was used in advertisment to signify a change from dirty to clean but this is not the case in this instance from my opinion.
Could it have been better even with the same sentiment? I think so. Is it outrageous? Don't feel so
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The fuss could be easily avoided if there weren't a vocal contingency of social revisionists intent to see anything and everything possible as racism.
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On October 12 2017 07:43 Artisreal wrote:
That's some fancy soap of it turns you from white to black to Arab? Tiny mobile screen so I didn't see it properly l.
That fuss could've easily been avoided if they changed the order to white black Arab or whatever.
It rings true that the whole black to white was used in advertisment to signify a change from dirty to clean but this is not the case in this instance from my opinion.
Could it have been better even with the same sentiment? I think so. Is it outrageous? Don't feel so
Change the order because some crybaby was upset? Fuck that. I don't think Dove intended to be racist, and if more people like leftists are going to use this racism card for no good reason, I'll be happy to oppose them. Personally, I have nothing against black people. I just don't like forced racism cards.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/cTQW6wr.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/EO8YQO8.jpg )
