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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Elizar
Germany431 Posts
On May 30 2017 12:49 LegalLord wrote: In principle, there's nothing wrong with Germany militarizing. They certainly have the right and the capability to do so, and we (by "we" I mean us Brits, if it wasn't clear) hardly have [....] Wait, what? Now you are a Brit again? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10924 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18375 Posts
On May 30 2017 12:49 LegalLord wrote: In principle, there's nothing wrong with Germany militarizing. They certainly have the right and the capability to do so, and we (by "we" I mean us Brits, if it wasn't clear) hardly have any justification to stop them. While there are certain tendencies of Germans and Germany that I find troubling, it would hardly be fair to say that they are the same people who followed Hitler into a massive war on top of one of the worst crimes of humanity ever committed. But before they have one, it's important to understand why they even want one. Hot wars between major powers aren't a particularly common sights these days; it's mostly just soft power wars and proxy conflicts. Having a powerful military is both an expensive undertaking and a means by which to have independence in FP decision making and to have a means by which to enforce your interests abroad. Not an easy or simple thing to have, but it can matter and be useful. The question that really has to be asked though, is why does Germany need a military? What do they hope to accomplish by having one? If they have no particular idea for what they're going to actually do with it, it'll just be an expensive means by which to wave their dick around for no particularly good reason. They'll just join in on stupid short-sighted ventures and get no good out of it. Given that the German populace doesn't seem to see a reason for having one, I'm inclined to say that Germany probably doesn't need to militarize and shouldn't do it. I can't believe you went to the trouble of typing out 3 moderate length paragraphs when you know NOBODY is going to read past the first sentence and think "lol, claimed British again. Can't take seriously". What a waste of your time! | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
On May 30 2017 04:29 Artisreal wrote: that is the definition of head in sand. It's not like we don't have smart minds that want to waste their brainpower on how to make nukes and missiles. And historically speaking people can work really fast if need arises. Thankfully they were slow to finalise the V2 back then. Anyway, my impression is that other nations want Germany to become a stronger force militarily rather than the country itself. Both politicians and populace. - politically: statement from German Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen: "Our future as Europeans will at some point be with a European army,"; but maybe you want to read up on its legal setting Article 42 of the Treaty on European Union provides for substantial military integration within the institutional framework of the union.[2] Complete integration is an option that requires unanimity in the European Council of heads of state or government. For now it remains politically gridlocked considering the critical stance of the United Kingdom in particular. Article 42 does also provide for a permanent structured cooperation between the armed forces of a subset of member states. As of 2015 this option has not been used, despite calls by prominent leaders such as former French President Nicolas Sarkozy, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, former Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini and former Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt for a common defence for the Union.[3][4][5] However the debate has intensified by the standoff between the EU and Russia over Ukraine. With new calls for an EU military by EU commission president Jean-Claude Juncker and by other European leaders and policy makers like the head of the German parliament's foreign policy committee Norbert Röttgen, saying an EU army was "a European vision whose time has come".[6][7] Article 42 was invoked for the first time in November 2015 following the terrorist attacks in Paris, which were described by French President François Hollande as an attack against Europe as a whole.[8][9] . - as far as the populace goes, i don't think anyone cares about them as long as their heads stay buried(but ~37% of germans did want an army last year).by the end of this year, the EU will have an army sponsored and backed by yours truly: Germany and France. calling it a defense force or an army is a matter of semantics at this point. Edit: and if was needed, Germany = EU. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
and if was needed, Germany = EU. And the EU is really just a US puppet. Which we know are controlled by black-power zionist bolschewik reptiloids. Which quite obviously are the same as the Nazis. Which live on the Dark side of the moon and try to weaken us by making us believe in climate change and by introducing homosexual socialism. It's that simple! | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
in that context thou, i'm actually on the side of Germany is acting on its own and wants its share of the world spoils. there was a vid. posted recently(forgot on which topic) on pre-WWI war settings and its exactly what happens right now(imo): Germany(EU), as a new emerging world power, wants its share of the loots. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
I'd like a British mod to come and randomly ban him for disgracing the British nation | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
On May 30 2017 17:08 opisska wrote: or maybe you dude should stop with the bullying; that guy can actually have a psychological issue(pathological) with that "we" thing.+ Show Spoiler +I'd like a British mod to come and randomly ban him for disgracing the British nation or he could be a streamer | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On May 30 2017 17:11 xM(Z wrote: or maybe you dude should stop with the bullying; that guy can actually have a psychological issue(pathological) with that "we" thing.+ Show Spoiler + or he could be a streamer If you see our passionate relationship as me bullying him and not the reverse, then you might have an issue with perceiving reality .... but then again, you show signs of that repeatedly  | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 30 2017 17:06 xM(Z wrote: i know you have problems with defining things but: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. in that context thou, i'm actually on the side of Germany is acting on its own and wants its share of the world spoils. there was a vid. posted recently(forgot on which topic) on pre-WWI war settings and its exactly what happens right now(imo): Germany(EU), as a new emerging world power, wants its share of the loots. it took you two posts to randomly go to "Germany is trying to conquer the world (again)". Credit where credit is due, not even I expected that. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 30 2017 17:28 Toadesstern wrote: it took you two posts to randomly go to "Germany is trying to conquer the world (again)". Credit where credit is due, not even I expected that. That also explains the secret Dutch nukes! They are set up to fall in German hands during Blitzkrieg! It all makes sense now! | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On May 30 2017 16:38 xM(Z wrote: that is the definition of head in sand. - politically: statement from German Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen: "Our future as Europeans will at some point be with a European army,"; but maybe you want to read up on its legal setting - as far as the populace goes, i don't think anyone cares about them as long as their heads stay buried(but ~37% of germans did want an army last year). by the end of this year, the EU will have an army sponsored and backed by yours truly: Germany and France. calling it a defense force or an army is a matter of semantics at this point. Edit: and if was needed, Germany = EU. I don't really understand what you're trying to say tbh. our top politicians as well as our defense ministry giving pro EU army statements doesn't address what I've said in the slightest. Neither is equating the EU with Germany. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
On May 30 2017 17:28 Toadesstern wrote: it's fine dude, i elected the german as our president and i'll probably elect him again for his second term. it took you two posts to randomly go to "Germany is trying to conquer the world (again)". Credit where credit is due, not even I expected that. in this case, i don't see a difference between asking for something nicely("WE", EU, together, democratically etc) and demanding for something when the outcome is the same. also i've been on that page(regarding Germany) since 2007 - 2008ish so you must be new here politics. @opisska - spoken like a true bully @Artisreal - that is literally what you've said "Both politicians and populace" don't "want Germany to become a stronger force militarily". i said that based on polls ~37% of people want to and quoted your politicians saying they want to. if your whole point is Germany is not EU(here we're obviously talking about the driving force) then that's that, there's no argument. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11928 Posts
And von der Leyen did not say that she wants a larger army. She says that she wants a european army. That does not necessarily mean "more". It just means "organizing things on the european level as opposed to on a national level" | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On May 30 2017 15:38 Velr wrote: I'm just astouned that so many of you still read and even respond to him. I'm not. In fact, in every internet setting I've been in, the more outlandish the claim, the more likely it is to elicit a response. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10154 Posts
On May 30 2017 19:32 Simberto wrote: If 37% want a stronger army (source please) that also means that 63% don't want one. Or in there is a % who doesn't give a fly about it either way. But withouth a source it's quite pointless. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On May 30 2017 19:38 Sbrubbles wrote: I'm not. In fact, in every internet setting I've been in, the more outlandish the claim, the more likely it is to elicit a response. Outlandish by the standards of the setting, though. I mean to say, this thread is populated by people who range from the centre left to the far left and not much else. If you say something that is common sense you elicit a response here. The obvious reality in this case is that Germany is not evil, but it has an inappropriate amount of power on the continent and states inevitably use their power to their own benefit. Another point that seems obvious to me is that the youth are extremely complacent and assume things can't go wrong. There is no purpose for a European military, and when a political body of diminishing relevance starts to push for more military, that ought to raise some eyebrows. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
I don't like this notion of increased spending because of this saying that goes "if all you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail". What are we going to do with a consolidated European army that uses over 2% GDP? We're going to go to war of one kind or another. Of course, at this point, I've pretty much already come to terms with the fact that we're going to war, so we might as well get it over with, I guess. | ||
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