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On May 03 2017 22:38 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 08:43 bardtown wrote:
Well it is hard to understand the motive from an individual's perspective. Kill a bunch of people to make refugees look bad... to what end? That has happened already, time and time again in fact, and nothing has changed. Some right wing radicals just crave to use the methods of radical Islam. Just read Anders Breivik, he is secretly in love with Jihad. Radical nationalists and Islamists have a lot in common, and it's not that surprising, really.
Monists in general tend to share a lot in common ; it takes a special kind of distorted mind to think without doubts that your ideology is the only one that should rule a land.
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On May 03 2017 22:38 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 08:43 bardtown wrote:
Well it is hard to understand the motive from an individual's perspective. Kill a bunch of people to make refugees look bad... to what end? That has happened already, time and time again in fact, and nothing has changed. Some right wing radicals just crave to use the methods of radical Islam. Just read Anders Breivik, he is secretly in love with Jihad. Radical nationalists and Islamists have a lot in common, and it's not that surprising, really.
No doubt. I don't know, though. There's something about a suicidal false flag attack that just doesn't make sense to me. You are essentially furthering the cause of the people you supposedly hate on their behalf. And giving your life to do it. Also, I feel like false flags only make sense 'in the grand scheme of things', and if you're dead you're not going to see the impact.
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On May 03 2017 23:06 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 22:38 Maenander wrote:On May 03 2017 08:43 bardtown wrote:
Well it is hard to understand the motive from an individual's perspective. Kill a bunch of people to make refugees look bad... to what end? That has happened already, time and time again in fact, and nothing has changed. Some right wing radicals just crave to use the methods of radical Islam. Just read Anders Breivik, he is secretly in love with Jihad. Radical nationalists and Islamists have a lot in common, and it's not that surprising, really. No doubt. I don't know, though. There's something about a suicidal false flag attack that just doesn't make sense to me. You are essentially furthering the cause of the people you supposedly hate on their behalf. And giving your life to do it. Also, I feel like false flags only make sense 'in the grand scheme of things', and if you're dead you're not going to see the impact.
Well considering he was a soldier I don't think a willingness to 'die for the (perceived) good of the country' is far fetched.
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I don't really think that comparison is as meaningful as you think. Soldiers do not go to war to die. They take a risk to do something they find meaningful or even enjoyable. They are closer to motorcyclists than suicidal terrorists.
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On May 03 2017 23:22 bardtown wrote:
I don't really think that comparison is as meaningful as you think. Soldiers do not go to war to die. They take a risk to do something they find meaningful or even enjoyable. They are closer to motorcyclists than suicidal terrorists.
"Willing to die for the good of your country" does not mean "suicidal" or "going to war to die".
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I guess it depends what acts of terrorism you are talking about. The 9/11 types seemed like ideologues and 'soldiers' who seemed to, in their minds, fight for some cause. But this new form of terrorism seems much more like school shootings or killing sprees. They're almost always people with failed biographies and criminal charges, often very young and I wonder how much sense it really makes to even consider this political or religious terror.
The same honestly applies to Breivik in my opinion too. The whole right-wing act seemed more like a cosplay for a loser who sat in his room all of his life and then went on a revenge trip.
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It seems like a mix of decentralized "lone gunman" operations and larger, better planned, premeditated strikes.
Breivik definitely doesn't seem like a spur-of-the-moment killing. Reading his background makes it clear he was planning his attack for many years. Unless you think he enjoyed being a farmer more than having unsuspicious access to ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel.
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Of course Breivik was organised about it but in the end he also seemed like someone who just invented a giant pile of shit, wrote a thousand page manifesto just to have an excuse to go on a rampage. Comparable to the guy who went on a killing spree in California because he wanted to punish women or whatever that was about.
I think people need to pay close attention whether people are just dressing up as an Islamic warrior or an extremist because they want to have some superficial reason for their violence or whether there's genuine structures behind it. We definitely shouldn't just take them by word though because we want to make a case against group X or Y.
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Is Breivik still living a luxury life? Last time I checked he had his own flat with TV + Library + GYM + and game console. What a punishment that is, while millions of refugees are constantly denied entrance to the western world. I bet many Syrian refugees would agree to live in his cell, let's trade.
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On May 04 2017 01:46 lastpuritan wrote:
Is Breivik still living a luxury life? Last time I checked he had his own flat with TV + Library + GYM + and game console. What a punishment that is, while millions of refugees are constantly denied entrance to the western world. I bet many Syrian refugees would agree to live in his cell, let's trade.
Not every society believes in treating their prisoners as horrible as the US does.
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I wouldn’t call having shelter, a place to sleep, a TV and limited entertainment a life of luxury either. If nations want to claim to be civilized, then refugees fleeing a warzone shouldn’t be the standard for how they treat prisoners.
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On May 04 2017 02:21 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2017 01:46 lastpuritan wrote:
Is Breivik still living a luxury life? Last time I checked he had his own flat with TV + Library + GYM + and game console. What a punishment that is, while millions of refugees are constantly denied entrance to the western world. I bet many Syrian refugees would agree to live in his cell, let's trade. Not every society believes in treating their prisoners as horrible as the US does.
Retribution as a form of justice is strangely prevalent in the US. Its an interesting thing because it actually doesn't have a single justification other than knee-jerk considerations. Data says it doesn't work. Data doesn't lie. But we still want people to suffer for no reason at all.
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On May 04 2017 01:46 lastpuritan wrote:
Is Breivik still living a luxury life? Last time I checked he had his own flat with TV + Library + GYM + and game console. What a punishment that is, while millions of refugees are constantly denied entrance to the western world. I bet many Syrian refugees would agree to live in his cell, let's trade.
Before I start swearing: You want to "trade people" like slaves so that you can fuck up one of those traded people's life more?
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It seems to be lost on some people that the punishment in prison is a lack of freedom, not a lack of video games. Way too many people would voluntarily move into a prison cell if they'd get three meals per day and can watch TV apparently.
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Retribution is the only form of justice. Helping people reform is not justice, it is a separate concern. And it's very important in certain cases, and Norway does it very well. In the case of Breivik however, I think the best way to proceed would have been to give him anaesthetic, cut him apart in front of his eyes, put him in a boat and push him out to sea. Then when the anaesthetic wore off he could make the decision between staying in the boat or drowning himself. He is an unrepentant mass murderer of children who is being treated better than the average citizen by the state. It's a flaw of the Norwegian system in terms of justice that this commendable treatment is extended to absolutely everyone. The only way Breivik sees justice is at the hands of vigilantes.
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On May 04 2017 02:53 bardtown wrote:
Retribution is the only form of justice. Helping people reform is not justice, it is a separate concern. And it's very important in certain cases, and Norway does it very well. In the case of Breivik however, I think the best way to proceed would have been to give him anaesthetic, cut him apart in front of his eyes, put him in a boat and push him out to sea. Then when the anaesthetic wore off he could make the decision between staying in the boat or drowning himself. He is an unrepentant mass murderer of children who is being treated better than the average citizen by the state. It's a flaw of the Norwegian system that this commendable treatment is extended to absolutely everyone.
There is overwhelming evidence in the criminal justice field that disproves this. Violence does not deter crimes in any way. The threat of violence does not deter violence criminals that live with the threat of violence every day. It stops nothing, accomplishing nothing and provides your enemies with endless ammunition to point to how terrible your nation/government/culture is.
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This discussion is also about how we wish to treat people with mental illness. Surely no one chooses to become a pedophile or rapist or serial killer due to the wonderful life prospects and career opportunities it generates. We don't yet have the right tools to diagnose these people early and do something about it, but torturing them as a response doesn't seem moral to me at all.
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I don't really disagree with that. I'm saying that justice and rehabilitation are separate concepts. For petty crimes a restriction of freedom is sufficient punishment and the focus should be on rehabilitation. That's how you reduce the number of repeat offenders, etc. But there's no need to rehabilitate Breivik, and he should see justice that is proportional to his crimes.
He was found to not have any mental illness, by the way.
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It really depends on what definition of illness you have. Surely an inclination to go on an murdering dozens and dozens of people has to be a pathology.
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EPT
