EPTMLP will be out of the FN for 2022, you can bet on it
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 832
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Makro
France16890 Posts
MLP will be out of the FN for 2022, you can bet on it | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
If more severe punishment leads to better results for society overall there is a point to it. Case being that nothing really suggests that with these types of crimes. So anything you are doing to Brevik because "he would deserve it" is only going to undermine the argumentation for the well-working system. | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On May 04 2017 06:13 Plansix wrote: Which is not how the western justice system gained credibility and modeled itself. The majority of our courts do not subscribe to the theory that the state should administer vengeance. That type of thought process finds its roots in religion and mob justice. @lastpuritan: there are some crimes you cannot deter. We are limited in our ability to deter other humans if they are set on doing harm and do not care about their own personal safety. The person you are talking about likely expected to die or did not value their life to the same level we do. There is this base human desire to try to create systems that can prevent or minimize violent events. That if we find the right punishment, the right level of severity, we can prevent these things from happening. And it’s a trap because the people we are dealing with do not play by those rules. They don’t value what we value or care about their own safety. Punishments should be based on we as citizens are willing to administer on a daily basis, likely for a life time. And what those punishments say about our nation and culture over generations. Don’t be like the US, were we don’t execute people on Sunday because of Christianity. Yes, but this is why I think we have to quit jailing system and build an area where criminals serve the society, panopticon philosophy serves that purpose. A Breivik paying the electricity bills of those families by producing with his body, planting 100.000 trees in the names of the victims during his remaining life time, reading books for blind people, making breads for human-shelters, tailing some coats, I don't know? I believe he still harms the society with his current existence. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
Who was the most convincing? Macron 63 Le Pen 34 Who has the best project? Macron 64 Le Pen 33 | ||
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stilt
France2755 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 04 2017 06:55 lastpuritan wrote: Yes, but this is why I think we have to quit jailing system and build an area where criminals serve the society, panopticon philosophy serves that purpose. A Breivik paying the electricity bills of those families by producing with his body, planting 100.000 trees in the names of the victims during his remaining life time, reading books for blind people, making breads for human-shelters, tailing some coats, I don't know? I believe he still harms the society with his current existence. All of what you are suggesting is much more expensive than just putting him in a flat with a TV and a gaming console. The surveillance cost for that type of meaningless production, not to mention your "area"-idea, is through the roof. There is absolutely no point in trying to create wealth with so few subjects and the last thing you want to do when you have many of them is putting them all together. That's how ISIS got started. | ||
Poopi
France12912 Posts
On May 04 2017 07:26 stilt wrote: Didn't see any but I still hope I would be drunk sunday. You didn't miss anything, it went as expected and it's very sad. I would rather have had Macron against Fillon or Mélenchon in order to have a decent debate because this quickly turned into a farce. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
Think this is the first time they've managed to double Labour. These polls fluctuate a lot though at the moment. Their lead was as low as 17% at one point. (Sorry, I meant to post this in the UK thread. I'll just leave it here, it's somewhat relevant.) | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On May 04 2017 07:27 Big J wrote: All of what you are suggesting is much more expensive than just putting him in a flat with a TV and a gaming console. The surveillance cost for that type of meaningless production, not to mention your "area"-idea, is through the roof. There is absolutely no point in trying to create wealth with so few subjects and the last thing you want to do when you have many of them is putting them all together. That's how ISIS got started. If you're worried about the costs you better execute them. I don't know how/why you relate the idea of public service as punishment to the creation of ISIS? It's a non-profit for the state, none of my suggestions directly serve the state itself such as tailing coats for homeless. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
Also what was this + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/xkJHNMo.gif) Is she trying to win the election with ... magic? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 04 2017 08:37 Nyxisto wrote: Le Pen acted really weird in the debate. She's actually not that great of a populist at all. Also what was this + Show Spoiler + Is she trying to win the election with ... magic? She's there simply because she's the daughter of her father. Literally. Otherwise she would be one of those decadent jet-setters getting drunk every night in some cool city and arrested 15 times per year for yelling insanities on the public road. She's so embarrassing, pure useful idiot of the statu quo | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 04 2017 08:14 lastpuritan wrote: If you're worried about the costs you better execute them. I don't know how/why you relate the idea of public service as punishment to the creation of ISIS? It's a non-profit for the state, none of my suggestions directly serve the state itself such as tailing coats for homeless. Because we did the whole penal labor thing before and shockingly, it is prone to abuse. Depriving someone of civil liberties and then forcing them to work has a pretty dark history in general. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
Mass murderers will be super inefficient workers because every hour of their labour also requires many hours of other people's labour to keep them secure. For the price of every tree planted by a mass-murderer, you could have like 20 trees planted by normal unemployed people. It's way more efficient to just stick the murderers in a box - minimising the cost of their security - and spend the tree money elsewhere. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On May 04 2017 09:00 Plansix wrote: Because we did the whole penal labor thing before and shockingly, it is prone to abuse. Depriving someone of civil liberties and then forcing them to work has a pretty dark history in general. I think it's possible to put long-term prisoners to work if you uphold the same labour standards as in an ordinary factory. If they genuinely don't want to work, then they can just sit in a cell all day and be bored out of their minds until the other prisoners come off work - and then they can use entertainment facilities according to the same schedule as the prisoners that do work. If they're so deluded they can't work in a factory, they'll probably need special rehabilitation/mental care/monitoring regardless. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9297 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 04 2017 09:22 Sent. wrote: Guarding these long-term prisoners at work would be very costly, making the whole thing counterproductive. Agreed. Stop trying to create ways to eek better efficiency out of prisons through unpaid labor. There is a term for that, called slavery. In the world of government, prisons are just a write off. Again, do not be like the US. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people One of the prisoners (a drug smuggler) works as the ferryman to transport people to and from the island prison. Others (rapists, murderers) do farming, husbandry, woodworking (with chainsaws), etc. They live together in houses, cook their own foods, go to work, etc. They live normal lives but in prison and without liberty. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
The finance minister owns some big newspapers and runs a huge PR campaign claiming that this is all a con by the "old politicians" meant to silence him and prevent his fight against corruption and his party has a record high support of the people. His voters don't seem to care for the irony that a guy who implemented the online reporting of any sales in real time to the state as compulsory for everyone is evading millions in taxes himself... | ||
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SkrollK
France580 Posts
On May 04 2017 08:37 Nyxisto wrote: Le Pen acted really weird in the debate. She's actually not that great of a populist at all. Also what was this + Show Spoiler + Is she trying to win the election with ... magic? Honestly, that moment was... Embarassing. For her, but also for me, because I actually live in a country where a woman (?) like her has a chance amongst two to be elected president of all the French people. I'm a little disabused and ashamed to see what we made of our great and beautiful country. To think that nearly a quarter of the electing people in France actually voted for her... I mean, I hate politics, not the discipline, but the professional decadent people running it in France (and pretty much elsewhere...) But, to think that a clown (not even a clown, she's not even funny) like her could be elected fucking president, it makes me wants to puke. (to non french people, in the gif she tried to use some theatral moves, intonation and langage to discredit Macron, but she splendidely failed and is Just This morning the laughing stock of french netizien) | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On May 04 2017 12:38 a_flayer wrote: I looked into it and they already work jobs in Norwegian prisons. That seems like an appropriate solution. Nothing wrong with that. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people One of the prisoners (a drug smuggler) works as the ferryman to transport people to and from the island prison. Others (rapists, murderers) do farming, husbandry, woodworking (with chainsaws), etc. They live together in houses, cook their own foods, go to work, etc. They live normal lives but in prison and without liberty. Doesn't seem like slavery to me. When said Breivik is harming society people usually think his lifetime cost to the public I'm worried about, but I all care he's not getting any kind of punishment besides being life-time sentenced in a flat. Maybe it's a big punishment in your culture, I can't know, but again, if he killed my relatives, given the two options, one is the current punishment, and second he's forced to plant trees in the name of the victims, or tailing coats for homeless for their memory, I would pick the second. The other prisoners may have right to refuse the service and sit all day, like drug dealers and burglars, but not the mass murderers, I don't care his will, that's the punishment, you don't usually pick the punishment you get, right? If you're discontent about the idea of brieivik being "forced" you can offer someting in return, extra meals, hd porn, I don't know? These things are not always black & white, if you call that slavery, you can easily link many state related issues to modern slavery which leftists generally do. | ||
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