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On March 08 2017 03:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2017 03:21 opisska wrote:
Maybe the situation is different in other countries, but in Czech, the marketing of the multispeed concept is bad and already being abused by populists as "they're gonna leave us out from the good stuff", so if it is supposed to ease the minds of anti-integrationists, it's kinda failing. Honestly, a really big issue of EU is inefficient marketing as most people make their opinions on it based on random trivia and outrught false facts. It really wouldn't hurt if the European Union was more democratic. To function properly it would require a huge transfer of sovereignty and a functional federal government. That's possible and is the way forward. The actual system is really not working very well.
That's exactly what these populist do not want. They have a fixed image of the EU and they are not willing to compromise on it.
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On March 08 2017 03:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2017 03:21 opisska wrote:
Maybe the situation is different in other countries, but in Czech, the marketing of the multispeed concept is bad and already being abused by populists as "they're gonna leave us out from the good stuff", so if it is supposed to ease the minds of anti-integrationists, it's kinda failing. Honestly, a really big issue of EU is inefficient marketing as most people make their opinions on it based on random trivia and outrught false facts. It really wouldn't hurt if the European Union was more democratic. To function properly it would require a huge transfer of sovereignty and a functional federal government. That's possible and is the way forward. The actual system is really not working very well.
I am not really visionary enough to discuss possible changes in the EU governance. However I am pretty convinced that the current status is pretty beneficial to my country - at least much more beneficial that the average citizens of said country thinks and that is a big issue. When local parties try to tap into eurospecticism for their gains, nobody really does positive outreach locally barring a few smaller parties and civic initiatives. There isn't any efficient outreach coming from the EU at all - the occasional campaign with big words and and a website has exactly zero impact. At this point, I think that the EU should start buying airtime on local TV channels to push forward specific achievements with tangible impact on people's lives.
Again, I am not saying that the EU shouldn't be improved, but that it is currently terribly undersold. In such a situation, the improvements will be largely invisible, the perception won't improve much and the exit push my steadily increase. Exiting the EU under restrictive terms could be a total disaster for our economy, free trade with Germany is life or death of our economy.
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I don't want the EU to be more democratic because you want to make it "more democratic" by giving it more power. The majority of Europeans don't want to transfer power from their national parliaments to the EP because they feel [their nationality] first and European second. I don't want to tell the Greeks how to handle their finances and I don't want the Belgians to tell me how my euthanasia laws should look like.
As long as the EU acts within its competences I'm perfectly fine with stuff being decided by officials appointed by the "undemocratic" Council because in that body my country is represented by my government while in the EP my country is represented by political rejects, career politicians and people who failed to win a seat in local elections. I don't think my country is somehow unique in this regard.
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Any reactions in the Europe lands to the CIA revelations by Wikileaks?
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If our agencies had funding they'd do the same but they don't, so unlucky for us I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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On March 08 2017 05:26 Sent. wrote:
I don't want the EU to be more democratic because you want to make it "more democratic" by giving it more power. The majority of Europeans don't want to transfer power from their national parliaments to the EP because they feel [their nationality] first and European second. I don't want to tell the Greeks how to handle their finances and I don't want the Belgians to tell me how my euthanasia laws should look like.
As long as the EU acts within its competences I'm perfectly fine with stuff being decided by officials appointed by the "undemocratic" Council because in that body my country is represented by my government while in the EP my country is represented by political rejects, career politicians and people who failed to win a seat in local elections. I don't think my country is somehow unique in this regard.
Yeah and I'm not fine with it, because a common market needs a common fiscal and monetary policy. I am willing to pay high taxes and everything to have a good society to live in, but I am not willing to pay the same for right-winger security fantasies that arise through their own horrible, uncontrolled economical systems failing, pushing the people into poverty by the millions.
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On March 08 2017 05:26 Sent. wrote:
I don't want the EU to be more democratic because you want to make it "more democratic" by giving it more power. The majority of Europeans don't want to transfer power from their national parliaments to the EP because they feel [their nationality] first and European second. I don't want to tell the Greeks how to handle their finances and I don't want the Belgians to tell me how my euthanasia laws should look like.
As long as the EU acts within its competences I'm perfectly fine with stuff being decided by officials appointed by the "undemocratic" Council because in that body my country is represented by my government while in the EP my country is represented by political rejects, career politicians and people who failed to win a seat in local elections. I don't think my country is somehow unique in this regard.
You don't have to give the EU more power to make it more democratic. A simple step would be to transfer the power to propose laws from.the comission to the parliament.
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On March 08 2017 07:28 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2017 05:26 Sent. wrote:
I don't want the EU to be more democratic because you want to make it "more democratic" by giving it more power. The majority of Europeans don't want to transfer power from their national parliaments to the EP because they feel [their nationality] first and European second. I don't want to tell the Greeks how to handle their finances and I don't want the Belgians to tell me how my euthanasia laws should look like.
As long as the EU acts within its competences I'm perfectly fine with stuff being decided by officials appointed by the "undemocratic" Council because in that body my country is represented by my government while in the EP my country is represented by political rejects, career politicians and people who failed to win a seat in local elections. I don't think my country is somehow unique in this regard. You don't have to give the EU more power to make it more democratic. A simple step would be to transfer the power to propose laws from.the comission to the parliament.
Technically this is correct, but it would bring the EU into constant conflict with national governments and probably prevent anything getting done at all. It seems to me that the EU is undemocratic by necessity. It is too remote and people are too disaffected.
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That's why I put "more democratic" in quotation marks. Shouldn't you quote this post instead of mine?
On March 08 2017 03:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2017 03:21 opisska wrote:
Maybe the situation is different in other countries, but in Czech, the marketing of the multispeed concept is bad and already being abused by populists as "they're gonna leave us out from the good stuff", so if it is supposed to ease the minds of anti-integrationists, it's kinda failing. Honestly, a really big issue of EU is inefficient marketing as most people make their opinions on it based on random trivia and outrught false facts. It really wouldn't hurt if the European Union was more democratic. To function properly it would require a huge transfer of sovereignty and a functional federal government. That's possible and is the way forward. The actual system is really not working very well.
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On March 08 2017 03:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2017 03:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 08 2017 03:21 opisska wrote:
Maybe the situation is different in other countries, but in Czech, the marketing of the multispeed concept is bad and already being abused by populists as "they're gonna leave us out from the good stuff", so if it is supposed to ease the minds of anti-integrationists, it's kinda failing. Honestly, a really big issue of EU is inefficient marketing as most people make their opinions on it based on random trivia and outrught false facts. It really wouldn't hurt if the European Union was more democratic. To function properly it would require a huge transfer of sovereignty and a functional federal government. That's possible and is the way forward. The actual system is really not working very well. That's exactly what these populist do not want. They have a fixed image of the EU and they are not willing to compromise on it.
The same could be said for the politicians who support the eu. They also have a fixed image and are not willing to compromise on the path that the eu should take.
This movement towards the end of the nation state in Europe is way to early,specially for east European countries who have been independent from the former ussr for only 30 years. The people are not ready for it and tbh I doubt they ever will,at least not in this century. But as said,they don't want to compromise on the speed going forward,they want push their own agenda asap despite the population clearly not accepting it. Are we living in a democracy or not?
And I can tell you right now,waiting wont help. They might think: but the youth is all pro Europe and integration and in 10 years they will be the majority. Well the youth will change their mind when they get older lol,it is just it works. I have seen the same happen with myself and many of my friends.
Anyway this will happen: they will aim for a leftwing and progressive victory in Germany and other north European states this year,and then after the election they will end the austerity and go for a big stimulus of the countries that have weak economys. The current goverment in germany does not support that, but a leftwing/progressive german government will support that. Just like the usa was first with qe after which Europe did follow,now usa will be the first with big stimulus and Europe will follow again 1-2 years later.
Off course they will get punished with the next elections but that is 4 years ahead and then they will find something else.
sad times.
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Happy International Women's Day - to those who celebrate it.
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On March 08 2017 05:26 Sent. wrote:
I don't want to tell the Greeks how to handle their finances and I don't want the Belgians to tell me how my euthanasia laws should look like.
And I don't want the subcarpathian farmers to tell me how my laws should look like. Yet it's happening. You have to put a line somewhere, and there's no proof the current ones are superior to the alternatives.
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On March 08 2017 22:55 ZBiR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2017 05:26 Sent. wrote:
I don't want to tell the Greeks how to handle their finances and I don't want the Belgians to tell me how my euthanasia laws should look like. And I don't want the subcarpathian farmers to tell me how my laws should look like. Yet it's happening. You have to put a line somewhere, and there's no proof the current ones are superior to the alternatives.
Exactly. It baffles me how many people from the US consider Europe a natural thing. The US were born together, speaking the same language, fighting a common oppressor. The EU is just an innatural blob: you just need to travel it to see what I mean.
The difference between Southern Spain and Finland, for example, is absurde. Apart from Erasmus exchange programs, (which are a nice feature but not enough to keep EU alive) they have nothing in common. Everything is different - shops opening hours, what people drink, what people do in their spare time, how they speak, how they line up waiting for the bus, how they cross the street with red lights on.
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On March 08 2017 23:06 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2017 22:55 ZBiR wrote:On March 08 2017 05:26 Sent. wrote:
I don't want to tell the Greeks how to handle their finances and I don't want the Belgians to tell me how my euthanasia laws should look like. And I don't want the subcarpathian farmers to tell me how my laws should look like. Yet it's happening. You have to put a line somewhere, and there's no proof the current ones are superior to the alternatives. Exactly. It baffles me how many people from the US consider Europe a natural thing. The US were born together, speaking the same language, fighting a common oppressor. The EU is just an innatural blob: you just need to travel it to see what I mean. The difference between Southern Spain and Finland, for example, is absurde. Apart from Erasmus exchange programs, (which are a nice feature but not enough to keep EU alive) they have nothing in common. Everything is different - shops opening hours, what people drink, what people do in their spare time, how they speak, how they line up waiting for the bus, how they cross the street with red lights on.
You're from Italy, so let me fix that for you:
Exactly. It baffles me how many people from <anywhere> consider Italy a natural thing. The US were born together, speaking the same language (glad to know Dutch, English, French ans Spanish, as well as a whole host of African languages, are now considered the same language, but that aside), fighting a common oppressor. Italy is just an innatural blob: you just need to travel it to see what I mean.
The difference between Palermo and Trento, for example, is absurde. Apart from Erasmus exchange programs, (which are a nice feature but not enough to keep Italy alive) they have nothing in common. Everything is different - shops opening hours, what people drink, what people do in their spare time, how they speak, how they line up waiting for the bus, how they cross the street with red lights on.
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Southern Spaniards and Finn both are believers in liberal democratic values. It's a natural union. I mean, you bring up how unified the USA is. You think Hawaiians and New Orleanians are any more culturally alike than Spaniards and Finns?
EDIT: Like Acrofales mentioned. "Italian" didn't even exist as a mutually comprehensible language until the TV became a household item.
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On March 08 2017 23:06 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2017 22:55 ZBiR wrote:On March 08 2017 05:26 Sent. wrote:
I don't want to tell the Greeks how to handle their finances and I don't want the Belgians to tell me how my euthanasia laws should look like. And I don't want the subcarpathian farmers to tell me how my laws should look like. Yet it's happening. You have to put a line somewhere, and there's no proof the current ones are superior to the alternatives. Exactly. It baffles me how many people from the US consider Europe a natural thing. The US were born together, speaking the same language, fighting a common oppressor. The EU is just an innatural blob: you just need to travel it to see what I mean. The difference between Southern Spain and Finland, for example, is absurde. Apart from Erasmus exchange programs, (which are a nice feature but not enough to keep EU alive) they have nothing in common. Everything is different - shops opening hours, what people drink, what people do in their spare time, how they speak, how they line up waiting for the bus, how they cross the street with red lights on.
You just need to travel a little bit more to see that while there are some differences across Europe, most of the rest of the world is different on a completely another level. Those differences that you cite, are superficial and not really that important. What matters is that we have democracy, order, law, safety, public services, health care and a general level of civilization and that is not all that common in the world. Sure, there are differences, but if you travel from one European country to another, you can be pretty sure that you can expect a certain level of comfort and working society around you - you see it on the fact that you don't really need to do any research at all to go wherever you please within the EU nowadays. Also, the "culture" is actually rather aligned across the continent, these are much less tangible things, but from my experience, it is much easier to understand what's happening in another European country than almost anywhere else.
Surely, there are other countries in a similar cultural circle around the world - Canada, US, Australia, New Zealand are all pretty close. Maybe Chile could claim to be pretty close and I am sure there are some similarly well-developed countries here and there I am not well aware of. The well-developed Asian countries such as Japan and Korea as well as Israel are very similar in terms of everything I mentioned but culture. And then it gets progressively more different as you foray into more and more different countries. Any two European countries look like two districts of the same city when compared to, say, Egypt and I haven't even visited most of the rest of Africa, but from what I heard, it's a completely different world, apart from South Africa. Even Argentina is, below the surface, a world apart in how the society and economy work ... and even above surface in some of the poorer parts the lack of resources and even care about the state of their living areas is staggering.
To put it simply, Europe is an island of peace, stability and prosperity in a rough world and it makes perfect sense for us to work together.
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Acrofales, I've never seen anyone as intellectually dishonest as you. Your example makes no sense either. The US troops spoke african when they were fighting the British in the Indipendence War?
A general doctor in Finland can earn 6,000 euro each month. A specialized doctor in Poland can earn 1780 euro. You seriously believe this is the same wage gap that exists between Trento and Palermo?
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On March 08 2017 23:13 LightSpectra wrote:
Southern Spaniards and Finn both are believers in liberal democratic values. It's a natural union. I mean, you bring up how unified the USA is. You think Hawaiians and New Orleanians are any more culturally alike than Spaniards and Finns?
EDIT: Like Acrofales mentioned. "Italian" didn't even exist as a mutually comprehensible language until the TV became a household item.
And this is just false. The Italian language started to become an entity with Alessandro Manzoni and it spread across the country in WW1, when soldiers from different regions had to communicate in the ranks and they could not use dialect.
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He is saying that such things can be overcomed and history teaches us that much bigger differences have been in fact overcomed. Of which Italy is a perfect example.
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I'm fairly sure the discussion is not about the 'can we do this?' but rather 'should we do it?'
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EPT
