EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 677
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LightSpectra
United States1722 Posts
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pmh
1352 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
The European institutions exist out of very pragmatic, and real material reasons that we've learned from our history. I don't think we need any kind of grandiose story and in fact I think the European Union is a move out of the romantic nation state period. The EU pretty much puts an end to historicism, just like say Singapore or the US at its inception. A lot of problems exist not because we lack that kind of history but because this group or that group tries to bring their version of it back. | ||
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pmh
1352 Posts
Only if it manages to stay together. The ussr was in a sense also a move out of the romantic state,even the roman empire was,yet they did fell apart. (for various reasons which don't directly aply to Europe, but Europe has other reasons that could cause it to fall apart) We become more global every day and one day all nation states will have disappeared,but that is still a long way to go and there will be many setbacks on the road. In the last few years we have experienced a set back, as public support seems to decline. I am definitely not looking for some heroic story that will bring back the nation state,that was not what my posts where about. If i gave that impression then it is a misunderstanding. A big crisis will most likely be a catalyst for further unification,so at the end of the tunnel there is light. i do hope the eu stays together and will keep doing relatively well economically and socially,the alternative is not attractive at all. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 24 2017 05:00 Mafe wrote: I am still undecided if I should laugh or feel bad about the 2002 president election in france. Around 40% voted for candidates of "left" parties (although ranging from centre-left to communism), but still Le Pen advanced to the second round with less than 17% of votes. It's just too ironic that that political left in france prefers egoism over working together, when the traditional agenda of the left is that egoism is bad and we should make sure we all benefit by standing up for each other. At least thats how it was looking to me from the outside. Did they still not learn their lesson? It's always easy to be united against change, and almost as easy to be reactionary and change back to a system/society that you justify with storytelling of the past. Look at all the left powers that stood united, the communists or the big social democratic parties. They all pretty much became conservatives over time, trying to protect systems that they created. Its one of the basic problems of progressive powers, that they eventually need to overcome themselves. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9214 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 24 2017 06:57 Sent. wrote: Don't you guys think the idea of moving out of the romantic nation state period isn't very popular in Europe right now? Staying in the era of nation states that are politically completely powerless in regulating the European Common Market is not that popular either. There is stuff that needs to be done and being one of those who is against progress "because others wouldn't like it" only makes it worse. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On February 24 2017 06:57 Sent. wrote: Don't you guys think the idea of moving out of the romantic nation state period isn't very popular in Europe right now? Sure isn't popular in some parts of the population but the whole 'romantic' part of the idea actually already implies that you can't go back to it because it's a fiction. Like, this AfD idea that we're all going to have single breadwinners, life-long industrial jobs and 4 kids while we go hunting with our Dachshund on the weekends is simply not going to happen, that reality is over, for technological reasons alone and we've never managed to turn technology backwards. So as I see it the only thing we can do is try to win the people who remain unconvinced over or else we're going to have a seriously big problem, especially because this predominantly seems to be a problem of the developed West ironically. The Asia-Pacific does not seem to have this problem at all. (Obama tried to move the US into this direction for a reason) If the US/Europe/Russia/Turkey starts to butcher itself while the rest of the world moves ahead I think we're going to mess up our situation for decades or longer. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 24 2017 05:00 Mafe wrote: I am still undecided if I should laugh or feel bad about the 2002 president election in france. Around 40% voted for candidates of "left" parties (although ranging from centre-left to communism), but still Le Pen advanced to the second round with less than 17% of votes. It's just too ironic that that political left in france prefers egoism over working together, when the traditional agenda of the left is that egoism is bad and we should make sure we all benefit by standing up for each other. At least thats how it was looking to me from the outside. Did they still not learn their lesson? It's not a matter of “egoism” but a problem of political disagreement. The traditional agenda of the left isn't to blindly give keys to the social-democracy so that they do whatever they want afterwards, i.e. betray their promises and ruin everything. 5 years of Hollande and the far right is 10 points ahead of their 2012 score. Should at least give some pause for thought to the “better the center-left than nothing!1!1!1!” crew. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 24 2017 08:33 LegalLord wrote: Hopefully Le Pen can pull it off in the end. Please stop randomly throwing that every page, it's not a f*cking game. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Also: signing the Ukrainian EU association agreement seems to be moving forward in the Netherlands. Kind of less significant now since the precondition for that to happen was that: 1. Ukraine wouldn't be joining the EU, 2. Ukraine would not receive a removal of visa restrictions, and 3. It was already being applied provisionally. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11554 Posts
On February 24 2017 07:33 Nyxisto wrote: Sure isn't popular in some parts of the population but the whole 'romantic' part of the idea actually already implies that you can't go back to it because it's a fiction. Like, this AfD idea that we're all going to have single breadwinners, life-long industrial jobs and 4 kids while we go hunting with our Dachshund on the weekends is simply not going to happen, that reality is over, for technological reasons alone and we've never managed to turn technology backwards. Also, it is not like that reality was ever "real" for a majority of the population. Before the world wars, you might get that situation in the upper class, but lower classes were "everyone works, all the time". Maybe you have a similar situation to what you describe in around 1960. But the fact of the matter is that you could easily live off a single breadwinner, even one with a job that doesn't pay that well, if you were willing to live like a family did in 1960. But you can't afford all the nice things we like to have today. And apparently not all women like to be dependent stay-at-home mothers. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 24 2017 08:42 LegalLord wrote: Of course it's not a game. But it's good to cheer for the candidate who would be best for the rest of us. Who is “the rest of us”? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21787 Posts
A Russian living in the US longing for the return of Russia as a super power? | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Those who don't have to live with the results of her domestic policy, whatever it may be. She would help end the EU which would certainly be a good thing, so she has my full support for that alone. | ||
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pmh
1352 Posts
On February 24 2017 08:32 TheDwf wrote: It's not a matter of “egoism” but a problem of political disagreement. The traditional agenda of the left isn't to blindly give keys to the social-democracy so that they do whatever they want afterwards, i.e. betray their promises and ruin everything. 5 years of Hollande and the far right is 10 points ahead of their 2012 score. Should at least give some pause for thought to the “better the center-left than nothing!1!1!1!” crew. In all fairness,i doubt that hollande is to blame for all of that. It is a trend that you see in every European country as a result of the economic problems in large parts of the zone and the refuge situation.,You also see an increase in populism in countries with a centre/right wing government. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 24 2017 08:45 LegalLord wrote: Those who don't have to live with the results of her domestic policy, whatever it may be. Oh okay. Then I wish you some isolationnist tyrant as your next president, as long as he doesn't bomb anyone outside of his country I won't care, even if he restores the gulag. After all, I won't have to live with the results of his domestic policy. On February 24 2017 08:50 pmh wrote: In all fairness,i doubt that hollande is to blame for all of that. It is a trend that you see in every European country as a result of the economic problems in large parts of the zone and the refuge situation.,You also see an increase in populism in countries with a centre/right wing government. Yup, the same policies lead to the same consequences. Had the right won, I am sure that the FN vote would have increased as well—since they would have failed on the economy too—but since it was Hollande governing, it's his responsibility. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On February 24 2017 08:43 Simberto wrote: Also, it is not like that reality was ever "real" for a majority of the population. Before the world wars, you might get that situation in the upper class, but lower classes were "everyone works, all the time". Maybe you have a similar situation to what you describe in around 1960. But the fact of the matter is that you could easily live off a single breadwinner, even one with a job that doesn't pay that well, if you were willing to live like a family did in 1960. But you can't afford all the nice things we like to have today. And apparently not all women like to be dependent stay-at-home mothers. Yeah that's true. Longing for German middle-class life is a hard story to sell to a Turkish working class family that never experienced it to begin with. Same of course in the US. There is a stark contrast between groups of people that were historically excluded and the romantic stories are almost always only the stories of a subset of people. I guess that's why this movement is large in the developed world. The second and third world simply has no disappointed middle-class to look back to. Kind of like how huge parts of Africa directly went from no phones to the internet. The kind of decay some regions here are experiencing is simply being skipped. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 24 2017 08:50 TheDwf wrote: Oh okay. Then I wish you some isolationnist tyrant as your next president, as long as he doesn't bomb anyone outside of his country I won't care, even if he restores the gulag. After all, I won't have to live with the results of his domestic policy. Indeed. Cheers to a better future. | ||
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