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On December 22 2016 06:35 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 06:20 Mohdoo wrote:On December 22 2016 05:23 MyTHicaL wrote:
Germans tend to vote on policies not out of raw emotion (.. I figure I have to qualify this as in recent times without meaning to bring anything up). The vetting process should be reviewed but this isn't the states. I mean the world went from thinking that 1/4 of you were ignorant now we can assume that its risen to at least 1/2.
As for people blaming relligion; it completely depends but it is the same liberal attitude applied to everyone, it's for that reason that you see neo-nazi parades running around Dover, England. Should there be limits to freedom of speech? If so what limits and who gets to subjectively decide on each specific case? Inciting violence is obviously not in everyone's best interest but words can be twisted if for example the orator is simply asking people to march/manifest. It's an extremely difficult balance to find.
Also this story is obviously getting so much attention but where was the story about the refugee camp who gift-wrapped a potential terror threat and phoned the police? Alienating an entire community is not the way forward. Trucks seem to be a recurring threat, in this particular case the owner of the company (whose cousin was the Pole murdered in the truck) said that ignition was attempted, then finally left on for an hour "as if he was trying to learn how to drive the truck". It could be possible to implement programs which would alert security forces to the potential of a truck, which should have been acting normally through the control of an experienced driver, as a threat. So German people are faced with the question of: Is saving 20,000 refugees worth 12 German lives? If they knew one of those 12 would be a family member, would they save those 20,000 refugees? That's not the question. They can save those lives and more for the same money if they just didn't import them.
Aleppo seems like a safe place to be now. They can return home!
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On December 22 2016 07:00 SK.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 06:35 bardtown wrote:On December 22 2016 06:20 Mohdoo wrote:On December 22 2016 05:23 MyTHicaL wrote:
Germans tend to vote on policies not out of raw emotion (.. I figure I have to qualify this as in recent times without meaning to bring anything up). The vetting process should be reviewed but this isn't the states. I mean the world went from thinking that 1/4 of you were ignorant now we can assume that its risen to at least 1/2.
As for people blaming relligion; it completely depends but it is the same liberal attitude applied to everyone, it's for that reason that you see neo-nazi parades running around Dover, England. Should there be limits to freedom of speech? If so what limits and who gets to subjectively decide on each specific case? Inciting violence is obviously not in everyone's best interest but words can be twisted if for example the orator is simply asking people to march/manifest. It's an extremely difficult balance to find.
Also this story is obviously getting so much attention but where was the story about the refugee camp who gift-wrapped a potential terror threat and phoned the police? Alienating an entire community is not the way forward. Trucks seem to be a recurring threat, in this particular case the owner of the company (whose cousin was the Pole murdered in the truck) said that ignition was attempted, then finally left on for an hour "as if he was trying to learn how to drive the truck". It could be possible to implement programs which would alert security forces to the potential of a truck, which should have been acting normally through the control of an experienced driver, as a threat. So German people are faced with the question of: Is saving 20,000 refugees worth 12 German lives? If they knew one of those 12 would be a family member, would they save those 20,000 refugees? That's not the question. They can save those lives and more for the same money if they just didn't import them. Aleppo seems like a safe place to be now. They can return home!
not just that. We also don't like seeing pictures of kids who drowned being washed up on the shores of Greece and Italy either. Shitty situation no matter how you look at it
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Why have you three (big J reaps bardtown, alway your three together) been talking in your own own little echo chamber as if you missed the discourse on wahhabism for years as if somehow it never existed? How curious. I just love the fake heart felt vindication of an already acknowledged problem.
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On December 22 2016 07:04 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Why have you three (big J reaps bardtown, alway your three together) been talking in your own own little echo chamber as if you missed the discourse on wahhabism for years as if somehow it never existed? How curious. I just love the fake heart felt vindication of an already acknowledged problem.
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
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On December 22 2016 07:07 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 07:04 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Why have you three (big J reaps bardtown, alway your three together) been talking in your own own little echo chamber as if you missed the discourse on wahhabism for years as if somehow it never existed? How curious. I just love the fake heart felt vindication of an already acknowledged problem. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
He has a notorious lack of reading comprehension, i normally just skim over his posts, though i am curious what he means by "always us three together" considering this is the first time i have ever replied to either you or Big J.
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On December 22 2016 06:35 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 06:20 Mohdoo wrote:On December 22 2016 05:23 MyTHicaL wrote:
Germans tend to vote on policies not out of raw emotion (.. I figure I have to qualify this as in recent times without meaning to bring anything up). The vetting process should be reviewed but this isn't the states. I mean the world went from thinking that 1/4 of you were ignorant now we can assume that its risen to at least 1/2.
As for people blaming relligion; it completely depends but it is the same liberal attitude applied to everyone, it's for that reason that you see neo-nazi parades running around Dover, England. Should there be limits to freedom of speech? If so what limits and who gets to subjectively decide on each specific case? Inciting violence is obviously not in everyone's best interest but words can be twisted if for example the orator is simply asking people to march/manifest. It's an extremely difficult balance to find.
Also this story is obviously getting so much attention but where was the story about the refugee camp who gift-wrapped a potential terror threat and phoned the police? Alienating an entire community is not the way forward. Trucks seem to be a recurring threat, in this particular case the owner of the company (whose cousin was the Pole murdered in the truck) said that ignition was attempted, then finally left on for an hour "as if he was trying to learn how to drive the truck". It could be possible to implement programs which would alert security forces to the potential of a truck, which should have been acting normally through the control of an experienced driver, as a threat. So German people are faced with the question of: Is saving 20,000 refugees worth 12 German lives? If they knew one of those 12 would be a family member, would they save those 20,000 refugees? That's not the question. They can save those lives and more for the same money if they just didn't import them.
They're not even saving their lives. Most of those people were already safe before deciding to migrate to Europe. They're just making their lives more comfortable while they could be saving actual lives with all this money.
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On December 22 2016 07:04 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Why have you three (big J reaps bardtown, alway your three together) been talking in your own own little echo chamber as if you missed the discourse on wahhabism for years as if somehow it never existed? How curious. I just love the fake heart felt vindication of an already acknowledged problem.
There was a discourse going on in the Green party in Austria, sure. And you know what the consequences of that were? Well, the one guy got fired, and the other guy has lost most support on almost all topics from the party leadership. Discussion is allowed. Just do it silently.
We have a party led by a straight up Nazi at 35% in polls in Austria, social democrats are considering to partner up with them, right-wing extremists have been protesting for months now.
I am sorry, but my country has a much bigger problem than wahabism, but the very openly lived denial on discussions on such topics, however minor they are in the grand scheme of things, might turn my country into a Nazi-vasall of Putin.
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On December 22 2016 07:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 07:04 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Why have you three (big J reaps bardtown, alway your three together) been talking in your own own little echo chamber as if you missed the discourse on wahhabism for years as if somehow it never existed? How curious. I just love the fake heart felt vindication of an already acknowledged problem. There was a discourse going on in the Green party in Austria, sure. And you know what the consequences of that were? Well, the one guy got fired, and the other guy has lost most support on almost all topics from the party leadership. Discussion is allowed. Just do it silently. We have a party led by a straight up Nazi at 35% in polls in Austria, social democrats are considering to partner up with them, right-wing extremists have been protesting for months now. I am sorry, but my country has a much bigger problem than wahabism, but the very openly lived denial on discussions on such topics, however minor they are in the grand scheme of things, might turn my country into a Nazi-vasall of Putin.
?? For real? They want to work with the FPÖ?
By the way, you have nothing viable at the left of social democrats, right?
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On December 22 2016 07:10 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 07:07 bardtown wrote:On December 22 2016 07:04 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Why have you three (big J reaps bardtown, alway your three together) been talking in your own own little echo chamber as if you missed the discourse on wahhabism for years as if somehow it never existed? How curious. I just love the fake heart felt vindication of an already acknowledged problem. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. He has a notorious lack of reading comprehension, i normally just skim over his posts, though i am curious what he means by "always us three together" considering this is the first time i have ever replied to either you or Big J.
Echo chamber indeed... posting together in tandem. Must be nice.
On December 22 2016 07:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 07:04 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Why have you three (big J reaps bardtown, alway your three together) been talking in your own own little echo chamber as if you missed the discourse on wahhabism for years as if somehow it never existed? How curious. I just love the fake heart felt vindication of an already acknowledged problem. There was a discourse going on in the Green party in Austria, sure. And you know what the consequences of that were? Well, the one guy got fired, and the other guy has lost most support on almost all topics from the party leadership. Discussion is allowed. Just do it silently. We have a party led by a straight up Nazi at 35% in polls in Austria, social democrats are considering to partner up with them, right-wing extremists have been protesting for months now. I am sorry, but my country has a much bigger problem than wahabism, but the very openly lived denial on discussions on such topics, however minor they are in the grand scheme of things, might turn my country into a Nazi-vasall of Putin. Discourse been had and is continuously ongoing in the UK loudly since the Tube got bombed back in 2005 by naturalised Muslims. I don't know about Austria. if a political party removes their members, that is their business and would surely not affect other political groups. The main problems were to obtain evidence lawfully and to directly link specific imams with charges which would stick. There is also the delicate situation that the intention is to save lives, which means you can't simply go and arrest an influential religious leader as such an action is likely to backfire and lead to greater loss of life which would nullify the "success" of such an operation. The current tactic is to attempt legitimise other forms of "community leaders", usually businessmen, to denounce specific imams, before charging the imams with various degrees of success.
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On December 22 2016 07:03 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 07:00 SK.Testie wrote:On December 22 2016 06:35 bardtown wrote:On December 22 2016 06:20 Mohdoo wrote:On December 22 2016 05:23 MyTHicaL wrote:
Germans tend to vote on policies not out of raw emotion (.. I figure I have to qualify this as in recent times without meaning to bring anything up). The vetting process should be reviewed but this isn't the states. I mean the world went from thinking that 1/4 of you were ignorant now we can assume that its risen to at least 1/2.
As for people blaming relligion; it completely depends but it is the same liberal attitude applied to everyone, it's for that reason that you see neo-nazi parades running around Dover, England. Should there be limits to freedom of speech? If so what limits and who gets to subjectively decide on each specific case? Inciting violence is obviously not in everyone's best interest but words can be twisted if for example the orator is simply asking people to march/manifest. It's an extremely difficult balance to find.
Also this story is obviously getting so much attention but where was the story about the refugee camp who gift-wrapped a potential terror threat and phoned the police? Alienating an entire community is not the way forward. Trucks seem to be a recurring threat, in this particular case the owner of the company (whose cousin was the Pole murdered in the truck) said that ignition was attempted, then finally left on for an hour "as if he was trying to learn how to drive the truck". It could be possible to implement programs which would alert security forces to the potential of a truck, which should have been acting normally through the control of an experienced driver, as a threat. So German people are faced with the question of: Is saving 20,000 refugees worth 12 German lives? If they knew one of those 12 would be a family member, would they save those 20,000 refugees? That's not the question. They can save those lives and more for the same money if they just didn't import them. Aleppo seems like a safe place to be now. They can return home! not just that. We also don't like seeing pictures of kids who drowned being washed up on the shores of Greece and Italy either. Shitty situation no matter how you look at it
Yeah, since hundreds of little african kids aren't falling over from hunger all the time. A particularly well shot picture managed to make one tragedy appear paramount despite overall more children dying in other areas.
If 3.1 million children die from hunger every year, Germany could be increasing the net number of Greek beach children being saved per day by focusing elsewhere. The current refugee situation in Germany is not the one that results in the highest net positive for child life. It also happens to be a perspective that has allowed for numerous attacks across Europe. So they allow attacks to happen while not even doing all that great a job at serving the purported purpose.
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On December 22 2016 07:50 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 07:41 Big J wrote:On December 22 2016 07:04 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Why have you three (big J reaps bardtown, alway your three together) been talking in your own own little echo chamber as if you missed the discourse on wahhabism for years as if somehow it never existed? How curious. I just love the fake heart felt vindication of an already acknowledged problem. There was a discourse going on in the Green party in Austria, sure. And you know what the consequences of that were? Well, the one guy got fired, and the other guy has lost most support on almost all topics from the party leadership. Discussion is allowed. Just do it silently. We have a party led by a straight up Nazi at 35% in polls in Austria, social democrats are considering to partner up with them, right-wing extremists have been protesting for months now. I am sorry, but my country has a much bigger problem than wahabism, but the very openly lived denial on discussions on such topics, however minor they are in the grand scheme of things, might turn my country into a Nazi-vasall of Putin. ?? For real? They want to work with the FPÖ? By the way, you have nothing viable at the left of social democrats, right?
They are considering it. SPÖ broke coalition with FPÖ in 1986 when they turned right, which forced them to partner up with the conservatives again and again, while conservatives had the strategical advantage to play with the FPÖ-option. There is a regional SPÖ-FPÖ cooperation in Burgenland nowadays and the party has initiated internal talks about social democratic demands towards any partner. It's not clear what that means, but there are forces within SPÖ that want to partner up with FPÖ and it seems to be that the demands are shaped in a way that would definitely exclude conservatives.
We have the KPÖ, communist party of austria. It's really minor and won't get into parliament. Greens are in general a little more leftist than SPÖ in their positions, but their focus has shifted to SJW-topics since Van der Bellen has handed over the party to Mrs Glawischnig. At least, that's what they communicate.
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On December 22 2016 08:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 07:50 TheDwf wrote:On December 22 2016 07:41 Big J wrote:On December 22 2016 07:04 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Why have you three (big J reaps bardtown, alway your three together) been talking in your own own little echo chamber as if you missed the discourse on wahhabism for years as if somehow it never existed? How curious. I just love the fake heart felt vindication of an already acknowledged problem. There was a discourse going on in the Green party in Austria, sure. And you know what the consequences of that were? Well, the one guy got fired, and the other guy has lost most support on almost all topics from the party leadership. Discussion is allowed. Just do it silently. We have a party led by a straight up Nazi at 35% in polls in Austria, social democrats are considering to partner up with them, right-wing extremists have been protesting for months now. I am sorry, but my country has a much bigger problem than wahabism, but the very openly lived denial on discussions on such topics, however minor they are in the grand scheme of things, might turn my country into a Nazi-vasall of Putin. ?? For real? They want to work with the FPÖ? By the way, you have nothing viable at the left of social democrats, right? They are considering it. SPÖ broke coalition with FPÖ in 1986 when they turned right, which forced them to partner up with the conservatives again and again, while conservatives had the strategical advantage to play with the FPÖ-option. There is a regional SPÖ-FPÖ cooperation in Burgenland nowadays and the party has initiated internal talks about social democratic demands towards any partner. It's not clear what that means, but there are forces within SPÖ that want to partner up with FPÖ and it seems to be that the demands are shaped in a way that would definitely exclude conservatives.
And the base isn't outraged about that? What do those two parties even share? Or maybe you have some “culture of compromise” in Austria that we don't have in France.
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On December 22 2016 07:52 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 07:03 Toadesstern wrote:On December 22 2016 07:00 SK.Testie wrote:On December 22 2016 06:35 bardtown wrote:On December 22 2016 06:20 Mohdoo wrote:On December 22 2016 05:23 MyTHicaL wrote:
Germans tend to vote on policies not out of raw emotion (.. I figure I have to qualify this as in recent times without meaning to bring anything up). The vetting process should be reviewed but this isn't the states. I mean the world went from thinking that 1/4 of you were ignorant now we can assume that its risen to at least 1/2.
As for people blaming relligion; it completely depends but it is the same liberal attitude applied to everyone, it's for that reason that you see neo-nazi parades running around Dover, England. Should there be limits to freedom of speech? If so what limits and who gets to subjectively decide on each specific case? Inciting violence is obviously not in everyone's best interest but words can be twisted if for example the orator is simply asking people to march/manifest. It's an extremely difficult balance to find.
Also this story is obviously getting so much attention but where was the story about the refugee camp who gift-wrapped a potential terror threat and phoned the police? Alienating an entire community is not the way forward. Trucks seem to be a recurring threat, in this particular case the owner of the company (whose cousin was the Pole murdered in the truck) said that ignition was attempted, then finally left on for an hour "as if he was trying to learn how to drive the truck". It could be possible to implement programs which would alert security forces to the potential of a truck, which should have been acting normally through the control of an experienced driver, as a threat. So German people are faced with the question of: Is saving 20,000 refugees worth 12 German lives? If they knew one of those 12 would be a family member, would they save those 20,000 refugees? That's not the question. They can save those lives and more for the same money if they just didn't import them. Aleppo seems like a safe place to be now. They can return home! not just that. We also don't like seeing pictures of kids who drowned being washed up on the shores of Greece and Italy either. Shitty situation no matter how you look at it Yeah, since hundreds of little african kids aren't falling over from hunger all the time. A particularly well shot picture managed to make one tragedy appear paramount despite overall more children dying in other areas. If 3.1 million children die from hunger every year, Germany could be increasing the net number of Greek beach children being saved per day by focusing elsewhere. The current refugee situation in Germany is not the one that results in the highest net positive for child life. It also happens to be a perspective that has allowed for numerous attacks across Europe. So they allow attacks to happen while not even doing all that great a job at serving the purported purpose.
You don't have to tell me that, I don't disagree with you. But the fact that that particular event got to a lot of people still stands.
We're also spending lots of money on trying to save pandas because we think they're cute. There are probably a lot of other animals out there in similar situations that are way easier to save with less money but they're just not as cute. Just saying that that is the case shouldn't be an issue.
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On December 22 2016 08:17 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 08:06 Big J wrote:On December 22 2016 07:50 TheDwf wrote:On December 22 2016 07:41 Big J wrote:On December 22 2016 07:04 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Why have you three (big J reaps bardtown, alway your three together) been talking in your own own little echo chamber as if you missed the discourse on wahhabism for years as if somehow it never existed? How curious. I just love the fake heart felt vindication of an already acknowledged problem. There was a discourse going on in the Green party in Austria, sure. And you know what the consequences of that were? Well, the one guy got fired, and the other guy has lost most support on almost all topics from the party leadership. Discussion is allowed. Just do it silently. We have a party led by a straight up Nazi at 35% in polls in Austria, social democrats are considering to partner up with them, right-wing extremists have been protesting for months now. I am sorry, but my country has a much bigger problem than wahabism, but the very openly lived denial on discussions on such topics, however minor they are in the grand scheme of things, might turn my country into a Nazi-vasall of Putin. ?? For real? They want to work with the FPÖ? By the way, you have nothing viable at the left of social democrats, right? They are considering it. SPÖ broke coalition with FPÖ in 1986 when they turned right, which forced them to partner up with the conservatives again and again, while conservatives had the strategical advantage to play with the FPÖ-option. There is a regional SPÖ-FPÖ cooperation in Burgenland nowadays and the party has initiated internal talks about social democratic demands towards any partner. It's not clear what that means, but there are forces within SPÖ that want to partner up with FPÖ and it seems to be that the demands are shaped in a way that would definitely exclude conservatives. And the base isn't outraged about that? What do those two parties even share? Or maybe you have some “culture of compromise” in Austria that we don't have in France.
Nothing. there was an article on official positions between the bigger three parties today and SPÖ-FPÖ were the furthest apart. They share hardly anything besides a few points on pensions and maybe some points on education and social housing as far as I understand it. FPÖ wants lower taxes for enterprises, no reintroducion on wealth, inheritage, or gift tax, more deregulation and flexibilization, cutting down state enterprises like the public media, looser social nets. They are talking about cutting 17 billions from bureaucracy (Austrian's budget is roughly 80 billions... yeah right), they don't believe that climate change is manmade and are against homosexual merriage. None of that is shared with social democrats, not even starting to talk about migration politics, nationalistic views they want to teach to the youth and the occasional demand to unban nationalsocialism.
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So apparently the guy they're looking for is a tunesian cause they found some papers belonging to him in the truck. Now what are the odds somebody who goes for such an act carries around his documents and then happens to drop them at the place they're most likely to be found? Way more likely he's being framed, I guess they have to follow that trail cause there's really nothing else. But that doesn't mean that the owner of the papers is actually guilty.
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On December 22 2016 18:48 Vivax wrote:
So apparently the guy they're looking for is a tunesian cause they found some papers belonging to him in the truck. Now what are the odds somebody who goes for such an act carries around his documents and then happens to drop them at the place they're most likely to be found? Way more likely he's being framed, I guess they have to follow that trail cause there's really nothing else. But that doesn't mean that the owner of the papers is actually guilty.
To be fair, they found documents belonging to the attacker in some of the other attacks too (Bataclan for sure, perhaps Zaventem as well, but can't remember). So it seems to be some really strange MO?
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On December 22 2016 18:48 Vivax wrote:
So apparently the guy they're looking for is a tunesian cause they found some papers belonging to him in the truck. Now what are the odds somebody who goes for such an act carries around his documents and then happens to drop them at the place they're most likely to be found? Way more likely he's being framed, I guess they have to follow that trail cause there's really nothing else. But that doesn't mean that the owner of the papers is actually guilty.
Which is what investigations are for.
Plus as linked earlier a reminder that this wouldn't be the first time attackers carried their passports with them.
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On December 22 2016 18:48 Vivax wrote:
So apparently the guy they're looking for is a tunesian cause they found some papers belonging to him in the truck. Now what are the odds somebody who goes for such an act carries around his documents and then happens to drop them at the place they're most likely to be found? Way more likely he's being framed, I guess they have to follow that trail cause there's really nothing else. But that doesn't mean that the owner of the papers is actually guilty.
The owner of those papers also left his finger prints all over the truck. Oh, and he offered himself as suicide bomber to the IS earlier this year.
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On December 22 2016 20:37 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 18:48 Vivax wrote:
So apparently the guy they're looking for is a tunesian cause they found some papers belonging to him in the truck. Now what are the odds somebody who goes for such an act carries around his documents and then happens to drop them at the place they're most likely to be found? Way more likely he's being framed, I guess they have to follow that trail cause there's really nothing else. But that doesn't mean that the owner of the papers is actually guilty. The owner of those papers also left his finger prints all over the truck. Oh, and he offered himself as suicide bomber to the IS earlier this year.
Yep that seems to be the latest update.
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On December 22 2016 08:17 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 08:06 Big J wrote:On December 22 2016 07:50 TheDwf wrote:On December 22 2016 07:41 Big J wrote:On December 22 2016 07:04 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Why have you three (big J reaps bardtown, alway your three together) been talking in your own own little echo chamber as if you missed the discourse on wahhabism for years as if somehow it never existed? How curious. I just love the fake heart felt vindication of an already acknowledged problem. There was a discourse going on in the Green party in Austria, sure. And you know what the consequences of that were? Well, the one guy got fired, and the other guy has lost most support on almost all topics from the party leadership. Discussion is allowed. Just do it silently. We have a party led by a straight up Nazi at 35% in polls in Austria, social democrats are considering to partner up with them, right-wing extremists have been protesting for months now. I am sorry, but my country has a much bigger problem than wahabism, but the very openly lived denial on discussions on such topics, however minor they are in the grand scheme of things, might turn my country into a Nazi-vasall of Putin. ?? For real? They want to work with the FPÖ? By the way, you have nothing viable at the left of social democrats, right? They are considering it. SPÖ broke coalition with FPÖ in 1986 when they turned right, which forced them to partner up with the conservatives again and again, while conservatives had the strategical advantage to play with the FPÖ-option. There is a regional SPÖ-FPÖ cooperation in Burgenland nowadays and the party has initiated internal talks about social democratic demands towards any partner. It's not clear what that means, but there are forces within SPÖ that want to partner up with FPÖ and it seems to be that the demands are shaped in a way that would definitely exclude conservatives. And the base isn't outraged about that? What do those two parties even share? Or maybe you have some “culture of compromise” in Austria that we don't have in France.
You don't have compromise in France? Just take a look at the last regional elections...right and left grouping together just to keep LePen away was pathetic and really showed how the two main parties do not have solid basis anymore. They shift form just to keep themselves alive.
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EPT
