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On February 21 2015 18:23 WhiteDog wrote:
No what explain the difference in price are the differences in wages increase, that are entirely related to cultural and ethical questions.
Housing prices have a lot to do with regulation since it's regulation that often limits supply.
As for wages, it has obviously to do with labor productivity which is clearly higher in some places than others. This is normal even within countries, it's not a sign that the currency system isn't working.
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one of the few good things left from communism is that everyone owns some kind of property. i think 97% of people in Bulgaria have their own house/flat. i believe its the same for the othrr former communist countries. this makes rents very cheap. you can rent a 100sq m appartment in downtow sofia for 400-500eur easily.
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On February 21 2015 08:27 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 02:23 puerk wrote:
And just to add a bit of perspective about the not soo expensive cities, and since i am "poor" in germany:
although gentrification is marching ever forward, you can still rent high quality flats close to or even in the city centre of leipzig for cheap... (below 6€/m^2 for around 40-60 m²)
for instance i pay around 180 for a little above 30m² in one of the best neighbourhoods (a fair bit below the average rent around here)
of course + heating, housekeeping, electricity and everything else, as those expenses are always seperate in germany Eastern Germany doesnt really count since everyone left the area and lots of houses are empty...
Your knowledge about eastern germany is not particularly good, or in line with reality.
20 years ago there was a negative migration saldo for leipzig, but for the last 15 years it was positive. You should get up to date, and stop living in the past.
![[image loading]](http://www.bib-demografie.de/SharedDocs/Bilder/EN/Chart_Month/2015_01_migration_german_cities.jpg;jsessionid=81352746B90A65C2C8CAE3FBB4176E33.2_cid331?__blob=normal&v=2)
See how abyssmaly bad Leipzig is doing? Its almost off the charts bad.
Vacancies are declining rapidly and expected to reach german average this year.
On February 21 2015 20:32 mdb wrote:
one of the few good things left from communism is that everyone owns some kind of property. i think 97% of people in Bulgaria have their own house/flat. i believe its the same for the othrr former communist countries. this makes rents very cheap. you can rent a 100sq m appartment in downtow sofia for 400-500eur easily.
That doesn't fit for the GDR, especially housing property ownership was very low, and almost everybody rented their living space. (not much different to now)
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On February 21 2015 20:32 puerk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 08:27 Yuljan wrote:On February 21 2015 02:23 puerk wrote:
And just to add a bit of perspective about the not soo expensive cities, and since i am "poor" in germany:
although gentrification is marching ever forward, you can still rent high quality flats close to or even in the city centre of leipzig for cheap... (below 6€/m^2 for around 40-60 m²)
for instance i pay around 180 for a little above 30m² in one of the best neighbourhoods (a fair bit below the average rent around here)
of course + heating, housekeeping, electricity and everything else, as those expenses are always seperate in germany Eastern Germany doesnt really count since everyone left the area and lots of houses are empty... Your knowledge about eastern germany is not particularly good, or in line with reality. 20 years ago there was a negative migration saldo for leipzig, but for the last 15 years it was positive. See how abyssmaly bad Leipzig is doing? Its almost off the charts bad. Vacancies are declining rapidly and expected to reach german average this year. + Show Spoiler +On February 21 2015 20:32 mdb wrote:
one of the few good things left from communism is that everyone owns some kind of property. i think 97% of people in Bulgaria have their own house/flat. i believe its the same for the othrr former communist countries. this makes rents very cheap. you can rent a 100sq m appartment in downtow sofia for 400-500eur easily. That doesn't fit for the GDR, especially housing property ownership was very low, and almost everybody rented their living space. (not much different to now)
Well the situation in east germany surely isnt as black and white as some people like to picture it.
Saxony, and in particular dresden and leipzig, are doing quite well (no personal experience, but this could be deceiving anyway). Afaik thuringia (and former east-berlin) are also doing ok, but the rest not so much. Also cities are also doing better than the countryside/smaller cities. It's surely not accidential that berlin/dresden/leipzig are the only cities above 250k inhabitants (?) in the east. Sure, you have the same trend (people moving to the cities, in particular those that are young and with good education) in the west, but it appears to be a much bigger issue in the east.
edit: Also, I just realized your chart is giving absolute numbers. So no wonder Berlin is up on top. I believe a %-number might be more relevant.
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On February 21 2015 20:55 Mafe wrote:
Well the situation in east germany surely isnt as black and white as some people like to picture it.
Saxony, and in particular dresden and leipzig, are doing quite well (no personal experience, but this could be deceiving anyway). Afaik thuringia (and former east-berlin) are also doing ok, but the rest not so much. Also cities are also doing better than the countryside/smaller cities. It's surely not accidential that berlin/dresden/leipzig are the only cities above 250k inhabitants (?) in the east. Sure, you have the same trend (people moving to the cities, in particular those that are young and with good education) in the west, but it appears to be a much bigger issue in the east.
edit: Also, I just realized your chart is giving absolute numbers. So no wonder Berlin is up on top. I believe a %-number might be more relevant.
This page has good percentage numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Germany_by_population
As you can see the much less 250k cities in east germany are a historical thing. There is not that much change in the last 100 years where the big and small cities are, it has nothing to do with the divide.
Edit: The growth of a bit below 250k to above happened more often in western cities than in eastern. But the number of seedcities that could thrive above that threshold was also much higher in absolute terms.
Furthermore several cities in NRW are doing terrible compared to Dresden, Leipzig, Potsdam (one of my favourite east german cities), so its not so much an east west divide as it is a divide in old and new industries. Iron/Steel/Coal regions are losing in importance, hightech and service regions are thriving...
Thats also why you have the terrible demographic problems in Cottbus, Eisenhüttenstadt and the likes.
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It's always weird to me to see words like 'Saxony' and especially 'Thuringia'.
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On February 21 2015 02:23 puerk wrote:
And just to add a bit of perspective about the not soo expensive cities, and since i am "poor" in germany:
although gentrification is marching ever forward, you can still rent high quality flats close to or even in the city centre of leipzig for cheap... (below 6€/m^2 for around 40-60 m²)
for instance i pay around 180 for a little above 30m² in one of the best neighbourhoods (a fair bit below the average rent around here)
of course + heating, housekeeping, electricity and everything else, as those expenses are always seperate in germany
Good grief... In Heidelberg, it's about 18 € per m², at least if you want reasonable living conditions.
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Since people are talking housing, and I've done some looking at housing issues, wanted to mention a useful resource on housing costs and affordability:
http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf
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On February 21 2015 21:18 SixStrings wrote:
It's always weird to me to see words like 'Saxony' and especially 'Thuringia'.
For me its 'Palatinate', especially since its not even a decent translation of Pfalz. I never got the propensity of the english language to butcher places so much, i guess every language is doing it, especially if there was historic contact with the region, but the sheer amount seems to me to be unique to english.
Wouldn't it be weird to call SF: Sankt Franziskus or Chicago: Lauchstadt?...
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On February 21 2015 21:30 puerk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 21:18 SixStrings wrote:
It's always weird to me to see words like 'Saxony' and especially 'Thuringia'. For me its 'Palatinate', especially since its not even a decent translation of Pfalz. I never got the propensity of the english language to butcher places so much, i guess every language is doing it, especially if there was historic contact with the region, but the sheer amount seems to me to be unique to english. Wouldn't it be weird to call SF: Sankt Franziskus or Chicago: Lauchstadt?...
That would never happen. The American mindset is that there is only one real language and everyone else is getting it wrong, so the idea of localising American names is preposterous to them.
You wouldn't believe how many times I have been corrected by Americans because I'm pronouncing German city names 'wrongly'. The idea that different languages are just an expression of different places of upbringing is completely foreign to them.
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On February 21 2015 20:32 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 18:23 WhiteDog wrote:
No what explain the difference in price are the differences in wages increase, that are entirely related to cultural and ethical questions. Housing prices have a lot to do with regulation since it's regulation that often limits supply. As for wages, it has obviously to do with labor productivity which is clearly higher in some places than others. This is normal even within countries, it's not a sign that the currency system isn't working.
Just to clarify things and because I'm bored to read your baseless and nonsensical comments.
Cumulated productivity :
![[image loading]](http://f.hypotheses.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/981/files/2012/11/Prod-ZE-500x351.jpg)
Cumulated wage inflation :
![[image loading]](http://f.hypotheses.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/981/files/2012/11/Infla-salar-ZE-500x311.jpg)
Productivity gain in Germany since 1998 : average in europe (while Greece is at the top with Ireland, until the stupid "help" program that is), but wage inflation in Germany at the bottom (even below Italy).
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Well Ireland's and Spain's productivity continued to grow during the same reforms (even at accelerated pace), so I don't think you can attribute Greece's lack of productivity growth to the "help program" so easily.
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On February 22 2015 02:28 Nyxisto wrote:
Well Ireland's and Spain's productivity continued to grow during the same reforms (even at accelerated pace), so I don't think you can attribute Greece's lack of productivity growth to the "help program" so easily.
Yeah there is a sudden drop in productivity coincidently at the same moment of the crisis but it's not due to the crisis.
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That's not what I implied at all. All I said was that Ireland and Spain recovered (at least in terms of productivity growth) while undergoing the same reform program as Greece.
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On February 22 2015 02:36 Nyxisto wrote:
That's not what I implied at all. All I said was that Ireland and Spain recovered (at least in terms of productivity growth) while undergoing the same reform program as Greece.
Not the same. And Portugal and Spain didn't recover : they have a 20 % unemployment (unemployment boost productivity btw), I'm not sure that's good enough to say that they "recovered". Portugal and Spain GDP today are also lower than their 2008 level.
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Sure unemployment is high and that's probably the case due to austerity, but I don't see where the connection between structural reforms and austerity is supposed to be. Both can happen at the same time.
Also how would unemployment boost productivity?
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What does "structural reform" even means ?
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On February 22 2015 03:02 Nyxisto wrote:
Also how would unemployment boost productivity?
Productivity = Production / Hours . If, by supporting an unregulated, loose workplace environment, where fun stuff like unpaid overtime is the norm - since, hey, no one's gonna check and I can just fire you without compensation or having to provide specific reasoning and there's 10 others out there ready to take your job (think crunch time for game development companies) - you squeeze an employee enough to do the work of 1.5 employees you will be able to hire fewer employees that work harder. Thus unemployment can boost productivity, while actual production (and thus the bottom line) remains unchanged.
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Unpaid overtime as in unregistered work will obviously increase productivity, but is that so significant that it would influence statistics? And I'm not convinced that the statement about people "working harder when unemployment is high" is true. That would mean that for the whole economy unemployment is irrelevant because it's always offset by productivity.
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Given the continuous rise of GDP, the (neoliberal) workplace deregulation trend that has taken hold worldwide and the plateauing (and in some cases decline) of employment, it would appear so.
Unpaid overtime is simply an unlawful example. Much more common is the trend to have a wage structure based on bonuses that are very hard to reach (or penalties if you don't meet certain criteria), thus providing extra incentive to become more productive. This hurts employment, of course.
Current economic model based on productivity treats employees like machines, more or less (unless you have the good fortune to work for a firm that thinks caring for its employees is better for everyone involved, and there are quite a few of those still, thankfully). If a machine is malfunctioning, or just not good enough, you certainly don't waste your time with it. When the same happens with humans, and it is encouraged by regulations, there's something wrong in a societal level.
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EPT
