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On February 21 2015 00:55 Simberto wrote:
Well, that hangs highly on the definition of "poor". According to that article, i am also poor. But i do not feel poor. I will probably stop being poor once i graduate university, but i am still living comfortably at the moment in my opinion.
Poor according to that source means less than 892€ a month income (after taxes etc...) for a person living alone, less than 1873€/month for a family of two adults with two kids.
We would call that middle class on Spain. And the cost of living is not exactly cheaper than on Germany. Just kidding, that doesn't allow you to live. 900€ for a person living alone is shit. I can tell you that you would need to share apartment, which means basically that you can't live alone. Since i don't have a family i can't really tell you about 1873€/month, but i would also guess it's crap.
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And just to add a bit of perspective about the not soo expensive cities, and since i am "poor" in germany:
although gentrification is marching ever forward, you can still rent high quality flats close to or even in the city centre of leipzig for cheap... (below 6€/m^2 for around 40-60 m²)
for instance i pay around 180 for a little above 30m² in one of the best neighbourhoods (a fair bit below the average rent around here)
of course + heating, housekeeping, electricity and everything else, as those expenses are always seperate in germany
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In Paris, a small appartment (30 m²) is 600 - 700 without the charge (electricity, water) so no 900 is not enough (altho it's already a lot). I used to live in a 32m² at 630 € when I was a student (and that was five years ago, things changed since then).
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So basically 900eu means you're living in a nonmajor (cheap) city, living on the outskirts and spend some time on public transportation or sharing a flat. Not exactly poverty but ok.
1800eu means... you might barely afford to start a family if you're not living in the major cities. That's borderline poverty. I wonder what our societies will look like in 2060 with demographics being what they are and apparently no change on the horizon.
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On February 21 2015 00:55 Simberto wrote:
Well, that hangs highly on the definition of "poor". According to that article, i am also poor. But i do not feel poor. I will probably stop being poor once i graduate university, but i am still living comfortably at the moment in my opinion.
Poor according to that source means less than 892€ a month income (after taxes etc...) for a person living alone, less than 1873€/month for a family of two adults with two kids.
That's why 892 is a threshold. As much an income of 892 euro doesnt make you a poor leaving under the bridge similarly 893 euro of income doesnt make you a middle class citizen. The point is that there is a slide of a pretty much stable population towards that end of the graph.
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More like 2500 (2x 1200 € which is the minimum wage) for a familly in France. Really you can't build a familly in a 30 m² appartment. I remember my neighbor used to live in a studio (32 m²) with his wife and two kids. The horror. The guy was working non stop, never at home and my gf used to take care of the kids from time to time.
I'm pretty sure he was getting more than 1500 € a month, but there's so many laws and necessities to get a good appartment (owners ask for three month in advance, and at least enough to pay 3 time the rent a month, or have other people as guarantee).
The poverty line is evaluated at 50 % of the middle income (60 % for the europe). It's not so much a question of what you can do with the money. There are others ways to define the poverty line - like privation stuff, where the poverty line is at the level where you cannot buy yourself what is defined as a necessity, but those kind of things are not easy to use (a monetary line, like that 890 € is way easier to understand).
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do the others countries have a word on the matter or it is germany and friends ?
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On February 21 2015 02:46 WhiteDog wrote:
More like 2500 (2x 1200 € which is the minimum wage) for a familly in France. Really you can't build a familly in a 30 m² appartment. I remember my neighbor used to live in a studio (32 m²) with his wife and two kids. The horror. The guy was working non stop, never at home and my gf used to take care of the kids from time to time.
I'm pretty sure he was getting more than 1500 € a month, but there's so many laws and necessities to get a good appartment (owners ask for three month in advance, and at least enough to pay 3 time the rent a month, or have other people as guarantee).
The poverty line is evaluated at 50 % of the middle income (60 % for the europe). It's not so much a question of what you can do with the money. There are others ways to define the poverty line - like privation stuff, where the poverty line is at the level where you cannot buy yourself what is defined as a necessity, but those kind of things are not easy to use (a monetary line, like that 890 € is way easier to understand).
The thing about that monetary line, while easy to understand, is that you're bound to get like 90% of university students in that by default. Even though that's fine it sounds a lot worse than it actually is imo. I don't know a single guy around me who actually considers himself or herself to be poor. Then again I wouldn't want to live on 900€ for the next, let's say, 30 years either and I'd probably consider that poor but as long as it's just some 5 years while going to university who cares.
The example for a family is pretty rough though. 1800€ for a family of 4 isn't really nice, mostly because in my head that's probably something longterm and not some 2-3 years inbetween early in your life.
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Are these high rents and costs of living in France mainly an issue in Paris or is this the case in other cities, too?
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Student appartments in Amsterdam are smaller than that and like €500 monthly. There's a huge housing shortage in the 'randstad' in NL and in Amsterdam in particular.
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On February 21 2015 04:21 Nyxisto wrote:
Are these high rents and costs of living in France mainly an issue in Paris or is this the case in other cities, too?
It's less outside of Paris, but it's still a huge problem in most of the big cities.
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whats an average middle class French or German apartment in size and price. And do you own or just rent it forever?
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On February 21 2015 07:36 Sub40APM wrote:
whats an average middle class French or German apartment in size and price. And do you own or just rent it forever?
completly depends on where you want it to be. It's obviously way more expensive in a big city like Berlin/munich if you're used to living in a maybe 20k people city.
I'm from Darmstadt, which isn't really a nice city or a super big one but it's not shaby or super small either. 150k people living here (Frankfurt would be 700k, Munich 1400k, Berlin 3400k as an example) and I mentioned the prices rent in my city earlier:
30 m² apartment ~ 13,03 € / m²
60 m² apartment ~ 9,41 € / m²
100 m² apartment ~ 9,13 € / m²
average prices for rent for the entire state (within Germany, in this case Hessen) would be:
13,06 € / m² (30m²)
9,00 € / m² (60m²)
9,18 € / m² (100m²)
for Germany as a whole:
9,38 € / m² (30m²)
6,58 € / m² (60m²)
7,58 € / m² (100m²)
Was born and lived in a ~10k people village for the first 20 years and that's way cheaper (comparing within the region):
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2nZaVK7.png)
You're probably going to rent unless you're from a village? So just multiply depending on how much space you need, I'm not married, don't have children so I don't just want to throw in a number of what's needed really 
1m² is apparently 10.7 ft²
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I'm glad you all got onto this topic, because I wonder about this a lot.
I wonder, could some of you evaluate whether you think the costs for the cities you live in are actually accurately represented on that numbeo cost of living site? (I won't link it 'cause that seems like advertising and it's easy to find).
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On February 21 2015 02:23 puerk wrote:
And just to add a bit of perspective about the not soo expensive cities, and since i am "poor" in germany:
although gentrification is marching ever forward, you can still rent high quality flats close to or even in the city centre of leipzig for cheap... (below 6€/m^2 for around 40-60 m²)
for instance i pay around 180 for a little above 30m² in one of the best neighbourhoods (a fair bit below the average rent around here)
of course + heating, housekeeping, electricity and everything else, as those expenses are always seperate in germany
Eastern Germany doesnt really count since everyone left the area and lots of houses are empty...
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On February 21 2015 08:22 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
I'm glad you all got onto this topic, because I wonder about this a lot.
I wonder, could some of you evaluate whether you think the costs for the cities you live in are actually accurately represented on that numbeo cost of living site? (I won't link it 'cause that seems like advertising and it's easy to find).
What do you think is wrong? All the prices are easily available to double-check via google. I can verify that it is more or less correct for Copenhagen, Denmark and San Francisco, CA (though it does not take into account that you can share an apartment and thus cut costs for rent).
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On February 21 2015 08:22 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
I'm glad you all got onto this topic, because I wonder about this a lot.
I wonder, could some of you evaluate whether you think the costs for the cities you live in are actually accurately represented on that numbeo cost of living site? (I won't link it 'cause that seems like advertising and it's easy to find).
about right for me I'd say?
I don't come close to paying 25€ a month for 6mbit but other than that... it seems mostly right. Went to McD today for 6,60€ instead of 7€ if you must know, Chicken price seems right and please don't ask me what 1kg of Orange would cost...
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Differences in prices (and inflation) between countries is actually the main reason as to why the euro does not work (lol).
God, not even a month and Syriza is already a let down.
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On February 21 2015 10:22 WhiteDog wrote:
Differences in prices (and inflation) between countries is actually the main reason as to why the euro does not work (lol).
God, not even a month and Syriza is already a let down.
Promising the impossible always leads to let downs.
Isn't having different prices a necessary condition for the Eurozone? If you don't have currency to evaluate/devaluate when necessary then you have to go with prices.
Having said that, one reason why parts of Europe have high prices is retarded regulations (eg. rent controls, zoning rules, state sanction monopolies).
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No what explain the difference in price are the differences in wages increase, that are entirely related to cultural and ethical questions.
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EPT
