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On September 08 2016 04:40 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 02:29 xM(Z wrote:On September 08 2016 01:10 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 07 2016 22:02 Banaora wrote:
Where do you think the government gets its money from? Around 1 million people in Germany are not allowed to work because their asylum application has not been processed yet. They lack education and have problems speaking the language. What do you think who feeds them and cares for them? Who pays for education? Sorry your naivity makes me angry.
Germany has not started the war in Syria and did not create the situation in Africa from which many people flee. I don't feel any obligation to care for the whole world while our schools are ailing, our infrastructure is neglected, our cities are indebted and are partly under administration.
If the policy in Germany continues from last year, the rise of right wing parties is inevitable. Where do you think the money is going to? All the money the government is spending on the refugees goes back to the people. Refugees need food, food is bought from local stores within germany. Refugees need to be overseen by people who get paid. German people who get paid. All the money the refugee "crisis" is costing germany is going directly to the german people. Its tax money collected from the people and redistributed to the people. Dont act as if the money is teleported away into space or something. You have to spent money either way. There is nothing you can do which does not cost money. So why not choose the solution which leaves the money within your own country? You could give it to greece (or any other european country which takes these refugees). You can give the money to turkey to persuade them to do something. Or, you know, you could keep the money within your own country. that's the fail, the trap because it doesn't happen that way and the inability to see it doesn't work that way, is what sinks the Merkel wannabees more and more. the money do not go back to the people; some go to the government and some go to a selected few, those few who own said businesses. people will only get the bad things and they will only see the crimes. so here you are, if you still don't get why people are up in arms well, ... there you go. How? Please, I am serious, explain to me where you think the money will go to. If the government spends like X millions a year on refugees, where does that money go to? Housing, Food, Clothing, Education, Paperwork, etc. If this money is spent within germany it will stay within germany.
yes, technically speaking the refugee costs are basically a stimulus package for local industries, the money isn't being burned. Which is by the way something over-aged regions with population drain could desperately need to increase demand and support local business.
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Money is also being sent back to their home countries. Which doesn't go directly into local businesses.
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Yeah I'm sure they're sending a lot back to Syria.
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On September 08 2016 05:00 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 04:40 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 08 2016 02:29 xM(Z wrote:On September 08 2016 01:10 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 07 2016 22:02 Banaora wrote:
Where do you think the government gets its money from? Around 1 million people in Germany are not allowed to work because their asylum application has not been processed yet. They lack education and have problems speaking the language. What do you think who feeds them and cares for them? Who pays for education? Sorry your naivity makes me angry.
Germany has not started the war in Syria and did not create the situation in Africa from which many people flee. I don't feel any obligation to care for the whole world while our schools are ailing, our infrastructure is neglected, our cities are indebted and are partly under administration.
If the policy in Germany continues from last year, the rise of right wing parties is inevitable. Where do you think the money is going to? All the money the government is spending on the refugees goes back to the people. Refugees need food, food is bought from local stores within germany. Refugees need to be overseen by people who get paid. German people who get paid. All the money the refugee "crisis" is costing germany is going directly to the german people. Its tax money collected from the people and redistributed to the people. Dont act as if the money is teleported away into space or something. You have to spent money either way. There is nothing you can do which does not cost money. So why not choose the solution which leaves the money within your own country? You could give it to greece (or any other european country which takes these refugees). You can give the money to turkey to persuade them to do something. Or, you know, you could keep the money within your own country. that's the fail, the trap because it doesn't happen that way and the inability to see it doesn't work that way, is what sinks the Merkel wannabees more and more. the money do not go back to the people; some go to the government and some go to a selected few, those few who own said businesses. people will only get the bad things and they will only see the crimes. so here you are, if you still don't get why people are up in arms well, ... there you go. How? Please, I am serious, explain to me where you think the money will go to. If the government spends like X millions a year on refugees, where does that money go to? Housing, Food, Clothing, Education, Paperwork, etc. If this money is spent within germany it will stay within germany. yes, technically speaking the refugee costs are basically a stimulus package for local industries, the money isn't being burned. Which is by the way something over-aged regions with population drain could desperately need to increase demand and support local business.
Blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
People are ready to argue anything they can just to support their bias.
What's really funny is that the people that are today defending the "stimulus" through refugee spending are the same that were against any kind of public investment to get Greece out of its mess.
A stimulus is a stimulus if the production capacities are not fully used (if they are fully used, it just create inflation) ; which is not necessarily the case in Germany (considering the unemployment). Plus, a stimulus is more efficient if it is used to invest in infrastructure ; because people usually save a part of their income which reduce the effect of any kind of public spending.
Here is what most people see : the investments for refugees is a redistribution of wealth (in a country with increasing poverty such as Germany it is quite a sorry sight).
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On September 08 2016 06:55 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 05:00 Nyxisto wrote:On September 08 2016 04:40 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 08 2016 02:29 xM(Z wrote:On September 08 2016 01:10 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 07 2016 22:02 Banaora wrote:
Where do you think the government gets its money from? Around 1 million people in Germany are not allowed to work because their asylum application has not been processed yet. They lack education and have problems speaking the language. What do you think who feeds them and cares for them? Who pays for education? Sorry your naivity makes me angry.
Germany has not started the war in Syria and did not create the situation in Africa from which many people flee. I don't feel any obligation to care for the whole world while our schools are ailing, our infrastructure is neglected, our cities are indebted and are partly under administration.
If the policy in Germany continues from last year, the rise of right wing parties is inevitable. Where do you think the money is going to? All the money the government is spending on the refugees goes back to the people. Refugees need food, food is bought from local stores within germany. Refugees need to be overseen by people who get paid. German people who get paid. All the money the refugee "crisis" is costing germany is going directly to the german people. Its tax money collected from the people and redistributed to the people. Dont act as if the money is teleported away into space or something. You have to spent money either way. There is nothing you can do which does not cost money. So why not choose the solution which leaves the money within your own country? You could give it to greece (or any other european country which takes these refugees). You can give the money to turkey to persuade them to do something. Or, you know, you could keep the money within your own country. that's the fail, the trap because it doesn't happen that way and the inability to see it doesn't work that way, is what sinks the Merkel wannabees more and more. the money do not go back to the people; some go to the government and some go to a selected few, those few who own said businesses. people will only get the bad things and they will only see the crimes. so here you are, if you still don't get why people are up in arms well, ... there you go. How? Please, I am serious, explain to me where you think the money will go to. If the government spends like X millions a year on refugees, where does that money go to? Housing, Food, Clothing, Education, Paperwork, etc. If this money is spent within germany it will stay within germany. yes, technically speaking the refugee costs are basically a stimulus package for local industries, the money isn't being burned. Which is by the way something over-aged regions with population drain could desperately need to increase demand and support local business. Blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh People are ready to argue anything they can just to support their bias. What's really funny is that the people that are today defending the "stimulus" through refugee spending are the same that were against any kind of public investment to get Greece out of its mess. A stimulus is a stimulus if the production capacities are not fully used (if they are fully used, it just create inflation) ; which is not necessarily the case in Germany (considering the unemployment). Plus, a stimulus is more efficient if it is used to invest in infrastructure ; because people usually save a part of their income which reduce the effect of any kind of public spending.
Although what you say is true you have to keep in mind that these refugees are already here. We are not talking about burning money on refugees vs. not burning money on refugees. We are talking about burning the money within your own country or just giving it away to a neighbouring country and hoping they use it better than yourself.
I'd say the rich countries are better off using their own money in the way they prefer instead of giving it to the poorer countries to handle the refugees there. If you are already forced to spent it, just keep the money at home.
On September 08 2016 06:55 WhiteDog wrote:
Here is what most people see : the investments for refugees in a redistribution of wealth (in a country with increasing poverty such as Germany it is quite a sorry sight).
And where is it distributed to? As far as I can see the money goes to the lower / middle class. The people who help the refugees adapt, the teachers, the low-level clerks, etc, they are the middle class. They get the money. Isnt that what most people like?
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On September 08 2016 06:58 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 06:55 WhiteDog wrote:On September 08 2016 05:00 Nyxisto wrote:On September 08 2016 04:40 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 08 2016 02:29 xM(Z wrote:On September 08 2016 01:10 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 07 2016 22:02 Banaora wrote:
Where do you think the government gets its money from? Around 1 million people in Germany are not allowed to work because their asylum application has not been processed yet. They lack education and have problems speaking the language. What do you think who feeds them and cares for them? Who pays for education? Sorry your naivity makes me angry.
Germany has not started the war in Syria and did not create the situation in Africa from which many people flee. I don't feel any obligation to care for the whole world while our schools are ailing, our infrastructure is neglected, our cities are indebted and are partly under administration.
If the policy in Germany continues from last year, the rise of right wing parties is inevitable. Where do you think the money is going to? All the money the government is spending on the refugees goes back to the people. Refugees need food, food is bought from local stores within germany. Refugees need to be overseen by people who get paid. German people who get paid. All the money the refugee "crisis" is costing germany is going directly to the german people. Its tax money collected from the people and redistributed to the people. Dont act as if the money is teleported away into space or something. You have to spent money either way. There is nothing you can do which does not cost money. So why not choose the solution which leaves the money within your own country? You could give it to greece (or any other european country which takes these refugees). You can give the money to turkey to persuade them to do something. Or, you know, you could keep the money within your own country. that's the fail, the trap because it doesn't happen that way and the inability to see it doesn't work that way, is what sinks the Merkel wannabees more and more. the money do not go back to the people; some go to the government and some go to a selected few, those few who own said businesses. people will only get the bad things and they will only see the crimes. so here you are, if you still don't get why people are up in arms well, ... there you go. How? Please, I am serious, explain to me where you think the money will go to. If the government spends like X millions a year on refugees, where does that money go to? Housing, Food, Clothing, Education, Paperwork, etc. If this money is spent within germany it will stay within germany. yes, technically speaking the refugee costs are basically a stimulus package for local industries, the money isn't being burned. Which is by the way something over-aged regions with population drain could desperately need to increase demand and support local business. Blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh People are ready to argue anything they can just to support their bias. What's really funny is that the people that are today defending the "stimulus" through refugee spending are the same that were against any kind of public investment to get Greece out of its mess. Although what you say is true you have to keep in mind that these refugees are already here. We are not talking about burning money on refugees vs. not burning money on refugees. We are talking about burning the money within your own country or just giving it away to a neighbouring country and hoping they use it better than yourself. I'd say the rich countries are better off using their own money in the way they prefer instead of giving it to the poorer countries to handle the refugees there. If you are already forced to spent it, just keep the money at home.
It's not your money, it's also the greeks ; remember they have the euro, and they're the reason why you can sell your shiny cars so easily, since they push the exchange rate of the euro down.
Anyway, I'm not against helping refugees, it is the moral thing to do. The hypocrisy is just a little bit boring ; there's money for refugees, but none for poors. I don't understand the distinction between those two groups of people. Our society loves victims, and hates losers.
And where is it distributed to? As far as I can see the money goes to the lower / middle class. The people who help the refugees adapt, the teachers, the low-level clerks, etc, they are the middle class. They get the money. Isnt that what most people like?
The first beneficiaries are the refugees tho. The same ressources that you invest to help the refugees could be spend for any kind of investment.
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The money that is spent on refugee camps within germany is germanies money.
And poor people already get money in countries like germany. The poor germans probably get more money than refugees do. (I dont know the exact numbers, I just assume)
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The money that is spent on refugee camps within germany is germanies money.
They're spending deutsche marks ?
The poor germans probably get more money than refugees do.
You are right, but social benefit and public stimulus are two entirely different things. You don't get out of poverty/recession with social benefit, you just prevent great poverty.
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On September 08 2016 06:29 RvB wrote:
Yeah I'm sure they're sending a lot back to Syria.
Syria is not the only country where the migrants are coming from. Africa is also a place. Here is where the Italian rescue boats picked up the latest shipwrecked 'refugees' or economic migrants. It's not even remotely close to Italy. At this point, they should just pick them up themselves and put the smugglers out of business.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QR3nSJg.png)
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On September 08 2016 07:05 WhiteDog wrote:They're spending deutsche marks ?
What are you even talking about? Do you have any actual argument to make or are you just derailing?
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On September 08 2016 07:13 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 07:05 WhiteDog wrote:The money that is spent on refugee camps within germany is germanies money. They're spending deutsche marks ? The poor germans probably get more money than refugees do. You are right, but social benefit and public stimulus are two entirely different things. You don't get out of poverty/recession with social benefit, you just prevent great poverty. What are you even talking about? Do you have any actual argument to make or are you just derailing?
What I'm saying is that it's not "your money" or "german money", since all european countries have the same currency. The economic situation of Germany (and thus its economic performance) is permitted by the high deficit / low level of development of other european countries that prevent the euro from getting to absurd level.
The idea that Greece is Greece and thus that Germans or Europeans are not responsible for their situation is not really judicious if you think at it from an economic standpoint. But I guess this very nationalist way to see economic problem in Europe is the reason why the euro is a doomed experience to begin with.
On September 08 2016 07:10 SK.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 06:29 RvB wrote:
Yeah I'm sure they're sending a lot back to Syria. Syria is not the only country where the migrants are coming from. Africa is also a place. Here is where the Italian rescue boats picked up the latest shipwrecked 'refugees' or economic migrants. It's not even remotely close to Italy. At this point, they should just pick them up themselves and put the smugglers out of business.
That's serious ? Directly picking them in Libya lol.
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Yeah it's real. I kind of always assumed they picked them up in the middle of the sea or around their waters... but.. no it's basically at port at this point. Like, kudos for them for still saving lives. But maybe if they don't reach the halfway point they don't get to come to Germany for the $$. "Sorry lads, gotta make it at least 50.1% of the way or we tug you back to shore."
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Doesn't shock me a whole lot if they do their work and control everybody that come in, because daesh is pretty strong in Libya.
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On September 08 2016 06:55 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 05:00 Nyxisto wrote:On September 08 2016 04:40 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 08 2016 02:29 xM(Z wrote:On September 08 2016 01:10 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 07 2016 22:02 Banaora wrote:
Where do you think the government gets its money from? Around 1 million people in Germany are not allowed to work because their asylum application has not been processed yet. They lack education and have problems speaking the language. What do you think who feeds them and cares for them? Who pays for education? Sorry your naivity makes me angry.
Germany has not started the war in Syria and did not create the situation in Africa from which many people flee. I don't feel any obligation to care for the whole world while our schools are ailing, our infrastructure is neglected, our cities are indebted and are partly under administration.
If the policy in Germany continues from last year, the rise of right wing parties is inevitable. Where do you think the money is going to? All the money the government is spending on the refugees goes back to the people. Refugees need food, food is bought from local stores within germany. Refugees need to be overseen by people who get paid. German people who get paid. All the money the refugee "crisis" is costing germany is going directly to the german people. Its tax money collected from the people and redistributed to the people. Dont act as if the money is teleported away into space or something. You have to spent money either way. There is nothing you can do which does not cost money. So why not choose the solution which leaves the money within your own country? You could give it to greece (or any other european country which takes these refugees). You can give the money to turkey to persuade them to do something. Or, you know, you could keep the money within your own country. that's the fail, the trap because it doesn't happen that way and the inability to see it doesn't work that way, is what sinks the Merkel wannabees more and more. the money do not go back to the people; some go to the government and some go to a selected few, those few who own said businesses. people will only get the bad things and they will only see the crimes. so here you are, if you still don't get why people are up in arms well, ... there you go. How? Please, I am serious, explain to me where you think the money will go to. If the government spends like X millions a year on refugees, where does that money go to? Housing, Food, Clothing, Education, Paperwork, etc. If this money is spent within germany it will stay within germany. yes, technically speaking the refugee costs are basically a stimulus package for local industries, the money isn't being burned. Which is by the way something over-aged regions with population drain could desperately need to increase demand and support local business. Blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh People are ready to argue anything they can just to support their bias. What's really funny is that the people that are today defending the "stimulus" through refugee spending are the same that were against any kind of public investment to get Greece out of its mess. A stimulus is a stimulus if the production capacities are not fully used (if they are fully used, it just create inflation) ; which is not necessarily the case in Germany (considering the unemployment). Plus, a stimulus is more efficient if it is used to invest in infrastructure ; because people usually save a part of their income which reduce the effect of any kind of public spending. Here is what most people see : the investments for refugees is a redistribution of wealth (in a country with increasing poverty such as Germany it is quite a sorry sight).
Can you like not bring up Greece for once in literally every post regarding some form of spending, even if completely unrelated
Capacities certainly exist and demand is way too low in some parts of Germany that have suffered heavy brain-drain, which is why I emphasized that in my last post. For downridden villages in Eastern Germany having some young consumers is a pretty good deal. Also we do help the poor in Germany as well. This isn't mutually exclusive. It's not like we're cutting unemployment benefits to pay for the refugees. That's literally not happening. And as far as infrastructure is concerned, more refugees in a city will probably mean that the city gets more funding. Speaking from a class perspective refugees and native poor people are on the same team, they share the same economic realities.
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Speaking from a class perspective refugees and native poor people are on the same team, they share the same economic realities.
So the spending you guys are making for refugee will have positive effect on poverty ? We make a bet ?
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The whole talk about austerity policies has essentially stopped since last summer, unemployment benefits are probably going to be modestly increased in 2017 and social housing is probably going to increase as well. The refugee situation has definitely shifted the focus back to investment away from the typical talk about debt reduction. I think that's good for the lower social class in general.
Many AfD voters don't seem to notice that the refugee situation actually is the first time that we're talking about them and poverty again since the Hartz reforms.
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Yeah don't get me started on those pickups in Lybia. That is beyond ridicolous. 'Refugees' know that you can just jump on a piece of wood, go 5 km from the shore, launch a call with a phone and they will pick you up. Quite a pathetic sight.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 08 2016 07:17 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 07:13 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 08 2016 07:05 WhiteDog wrote:The money that is spent on refugee camps within germany is germanies money. They're spending deutsche marks ? The poor germans probably get more money than refugees do. You are right, but social benefit and public stimulus are two entirely different things. You don't get out of poverty/recession with social benefit, you just prevent great poverty. What are you even talking about? Do you have any actual argument to make or are you just derailing? What I'm saying is that it's not "your money" or "german money", since all european countries have the same currency. The economic situation of Germany (and thus its economic performance) is permitted by the high deficit / low level of development of other european countries that prevent the euro from getting to absurd level. The idea that Greece is Greece and thus that Germans or Europeans are not responsible for their situation is not really judicious if you think at it from an economic standpoint. But I guess this very nationalist way to see economic problem in Europe is the reason why the euro is a doomed experience to begin with. Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 07:10 SK.Testie wrote:On September 08 2016 06:29 RvB wrote:
Yeah I'm sure they're sending a lot back to Syria. Syria is not the only country where the migrants are coming from. Africa is also a place. Here is where the Italian rescue boats picked up the latest shipwrecked 'refugees' or economic migrants. It's not even remotely close to Italy. At this point, they should just pick them up themselves and put the smugglers out of business. That's serious ? Directly picking them in Libya lol.
But what is your point? What are you trying to argue? Are you agreeing with me? Disagreeing? I can not tell from the things you say.
I am not talking about the good and the bad, I am talking about better or worse. I think it is better that the countries with stronger economies take care of the crisis. And I think it is better for these countries to take care of the crisis on their own turf instead of outsourcing it to the poorer countries.
If you look at all countries within europe, italy, france, spain, greece, germany, etc. Which country do you think would be best for taking care of this? I would definitely say the big and the rich.
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We have had this discussion before. While I agree that the richer countries should obviously bear the brunt of the costs, it is demonstrably false that it is economically better to import the refugees than helping them where they are. The political will wasn't in place to do the latter - in part because Merkel decided that she wanted to do the former and thus encourage the creation of a mass grave in the Mediterranean.
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On September 08 2016 04:40 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 02:29 xM(Z wrote:On September 08 2016 01:10 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 07 2016 22:02 Banaora wrote:
Where do you think the government gets its money from? Around 1 million people in Germany are not allowed to work because their asylum application has not been processed yet. They lack education and have problems speaking the language. What do you think who feeds them and cares for them? Who pays for education? Sorry your naivity makes me angry.
Germany has not started the war in Syria and did not create the situation in Africa from which many people flee. I don't feel any obligation to care for the whole world while our schools are ailing, our infrastructure is neglected, our cities are indebted and are partly under administration.
If the policy in Germany continues from last year, the rise of right wing parties is inevitable. Where do you think the money is going to? All the money the government is spending on the refugees goes back to the people. Refugees need food, food is bought from local stores within germany. Refugees need to be overseen by people who get paid. German people who get paid. All the money the refugee "crisis" is costing germany is going directly to the german people. Its tax money collected from the people and redistributed to the people. Dont act as if the money is teleported away into space or something. You have to spent money either way. There is nothing you can do which does not cost money. So why not choose the solution which leaves the money within your own country? You could give it to greece (or any other european country which takes these refugees). You can give the money to turkey to persuade them to do something. Or, you know, you could keep the money within your own country. that's the fail, the trap because it doesn't happen that way and the inability to see it doesn't work that way, is what sinks the Merkel wannabees more and more. the money do not go back to the people; some go to the government and some go to a selected few, those few who own said businesses. people will only get the bad things and they will only see the crimes. so here you are, if you still don't get why people are up in arms well, ... there you go. How? Please, I am serious, explain to me where you think the money will go to. If the government spends like X millions a year on refugees, where does that money go to? Housing, Food, Clothing, Education, Paperwork, etc. If this money is spent within germany it will stay within germany.
your money argument mimics Farage's £350m one: why should we give them(EU here is middle eastern countries who can host refugee camps) money when we can spend them here for the same thing; it's our money!.
do i need to say more?(i won't even touch on the fact that with the money per refugee you spend in Germany you can take care of 3-5 refugees in one of those countries).
you don't own money(contextual) and money don't have a heading.
Ex: you have a town of 500.000 people that draws the short end of the stick and gets to house 10.000 immigrants.
- the gov. will contract landlords for housing(or just take buildings for free because why not) = those couple landlords will get rich(-er?, maybe); few new possible desk jobs but they'll hire refugees or get refugees to do them for free or for access to ... things.
- the gov. will contract catering firms to feed them = the owners of those few catering firms will get rich(-er?, maybe); some job openings, maybe several dozens.
- the gov. will give refugees spending money which they'll partially(they will definitely save some or send to relatives in their native country) spend locally; some businesses will in theory, get an influx of new clients but in practice they'll lose others which makes it hard to quantify the actual gain.
- some/few refugees will open shops and provide some kind of service(for whom?, to whom?; benefits uncertain); self employed.
you add those together and you get to, in a best case scenario, several hundred new jobs, some with a questionable legality and payment schemes. Ex: 500 new jobs in a 500.000 city. that is not money going back to the people, that's money going to a selected few.
now, see how many people, native people, german people, will those 10.000 immigrants negatively affect both directly and indirectly, because my number is the tens of thousands ballpark and they're the ones voting now.
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EPT
