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On September 07 2016 08:01 RoomOfMush wrote:
But at the same time these established parties must do >something< right. Germany is doing pretty good in comparison to any other country on earth. Why would anybody want a different government when germany is already on top of its game?
Germans aren't ants. Certain groups might feel like their part of the cake isn't big enough or that someone else's part is too big.
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The biggest issue is immigration politics. There are many people in Germany dissatisfied with "Wir schaffen das." AfD was at around 3-5% last year before Merkel started to accept this massive flow of immigrants into the country.
The worst thing, in parliament there was no opposition to Merkel's immigration policy which about half the country doesn't support. So I'm happy myself AfD gets into parliament because the opinions of the population should be represented in parliament. The government needs supervision.
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On September 07 2016 15:34 Banaora wrote:
The biggest issue is immigration politics. There are many people in Germany dissatisfied with "Wir schaffen das." AfD was at around 3-5% last year before Merkel started to accept this massive flow of immigrants into the country.
The worst thing, in parliament there was no opposition to Merkel's immigration policy which about half the country doesn't support. So I'm happy myself AfD gets into parliament because parliament should represent the opinions of the population. The government needs supervision.
This exactly.
The parliament allowed something which most of the germans did not want. People think now (and to a certain extent it is correct i guess), that the politicians feel superiour and just do what they think is right.
Thats however not the way it should work in my mind at least. You should give people the feeling you represent their will at the parliament. In this matter it just did not happen and the established parties pay for it.
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On September 07 2016 08:01 RoomOfMush wrote:
But at the same time these established parties must do >something< right. Germany is doing pretty good in comparison to any other country on earth. Why would anybody want a different government when germany is already on top of its game?
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://annotations.blog.free.fr/public/.Le_Monde_diplomatique__allemagne_pauvrete_chomage_PIB__Martin_Anota__m.jpg) Red: poverty Green: unemployment Unemployment rate per State
The benefits aren't distributed fairly. Also note that Germany does “pretty good” because it bullies its neighbors.
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Zurich15352 Posts
On September 07 2016 19:11 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2016 08:01 RoomOfMush wrote:
But at the same time these established parties must do >something< right. Germany is doing pretty good in comparison to any other country on earth. Why would anybody want a different government when germany is already on top of its game? + Show Spoiler +Red: poverty Green: unemployment Unemployment rate per State The benefits aren't distributed fairly. Also note that Germany does “pretty good” because it bullies its neighbors.
Just to add to that: The election last week was in the heavy red state in the top right of that graph.
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On September 05 2016 03:23 puerk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2016 02:04 Sent. wrote:
AfD didn't win, no reason to be salty it was a win considering the circumstances.. and it will be a disruption of the political climate although they will not be part of the ruling coalition i do not like that some germans think it is time again to trust into xenophobic nationalism scapegoating away the problems.. we should know better.
Why not? The rest of europe is doing it. Regardless of the election, the strength of right wing groups will continue to rise until they will get elected. People are continually getting disillusioned by the left and are starting to evolve into human beings with backbones.
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On September 07 2016 15:53 Waterboarding wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2016 15:34 Banaora wrote:
The biggest issue is immigration politics. There are many people in Germany dissatisfied with "Wir schaffen das." AfD was at around 3-5% last year before Merkel started to accept this massive flow of immigrants into the country.
The worst thing, in parliament there was no opposition to Merkel's immigration policy which about half the country doesn't support. So I'm happy myself AfD gets into parliament because parliament should represent the opinions of the population. The government needs supervision. This exactly. The parliament allowed something which most of the germans did not want. People think now (and to a certain extent it is correct i guess), that the politicians feel superiour and just do what they think is right. Thats however not the way it should work in my mind at least. You should give people the feeling you represent their will at the parliament. In this matter it just did not happen and the established parties pay for it.
As much as I hate the immigration policy, I have to disagree with you. The ruling party isn't supposed to do what the people want at any given point in time, they are supposed to do what they think is best for the country regardless of what the people want because the people don't always know whats best. Im not German, but what I always hear about German politicians is that they always put the economy first which explains the immigration policy as cheap labor is good for manufacturing businesses and accepting refs makes you look like a humanitarian country which increases your export.
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On September 07 2016 15:34 Banaora wrote:
The biggest issue is immigration politics. There are many people in Germany dissatisfied with "Wir schaffen das." AfD was at around 3-5% last year before Merkel started to accept this massive flow of immigrants into the country.
The worst thing, in parliament there was no opposition to Merkel's immigration policy which about half the country doesn't support. So I'm happy myself AfD gets into parliament because the opinions of the population should be represented in parliament. The government needs supervision.
But do you think what they are doing is wrong?
I would say they did the right thing. Maybe they are not good enough at explaining their decisions to the people? Maybe they need more transparency?
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On September 07 2016 20:57 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2016 15:34 Banaora wrote:
The biggest issue is immigration politics. There are many people in Germany dissatisfied with "Wir schaffen das." AfD was at around 3-5% last year before Merkel started to accept this massive flow of immigrants into the country.
The worst thing, in parliament there was no opposition to Merkel's immigration policy which about half the country doesn't support. So I'm happy myself AfD gets into parliament because the opinions of the population should be represented in parliament. The government needs supervision. But do you think what they are doing is wrong? I would say they did the right thing. Maybe they are not good enough at explaining their decisions to the people? Maybe they need more transparency?
Yes, I think what they did was wrong. Yes, you need to help people who flee from war, but I do not understand why these people should have the right to actually choose the country they flee to according to social standards. It is not their fault as long as it is allowed by Germany, don't get me wrong, but this is not how it should be.
The best solution would have been to stick to the Dublin regulation that was agreed on. That means people have to request asylum in the first country where they arrive in the Schengen area - mostly Greece and Italy. In addition the whole EU should have offered Greece and Italy help and finance camps there. And if it gets too crowded distribute some across Europe.
The way Merkel handled this problem only alienated the eastern Europeans and isolated Germany more within Europe. You can read Dwf talking about Germany bullying its neighbours. So the wish to help Germany with this immigration issue is quite limited across Europe.
If the people had been forced to stay in Greece fewer would have made the trip and solidarity with Greece would have been higher than solidarity with Germany.
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But germany seems like the best country to take these people in. Its a rather large country (by european standards) and it is the richest country in europe. Why give money to the greeks to keep the refugees if you can spend the money in your own country instead?
Greece is already in all kinds of shit, they dont need more problems piling up. Germany is the strongest economy within europe, they are the ones who can afford the refugees the most. Furthermore, taking care of the refugees creates jobs. Jobs paid by the government. The german government can create plenty of fresh new jobs which dont require much education, only dedication. They take money and give it to the people to help other people. The german government has the money to spent it, they have the workforce to spend it on. I do not see how any german could ever think this is a bad thing when you think it through.
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Where do you think the government gets its money from? Around 1 million people in Germany are not allowed to work because their asylum application has not been processed yet. They lack education and have problems speaking the language. What do you think who feeds them and cares for them? Who pays for education? Sorry your naivity makes me angry.
Germany has not started the war in Syria and did not create the situation in Africa from which many people flee. I don't feel any obligation to care for the whole world while our schools are ailing, our infrastructure is neglected, our cities are indebted and are partly under administration.
If the policy in Germany continues from last year, the rise of right wing parties is inevitable.
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1 million non native speaking, cultural and religious totally alien young men with mostly bad education...
What could go wrong? Especially when you look at germanies bad history when it comes to immigration policies.
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On September 07 2016 22:02 Banaora wrote:
Where do you think the government gets its money from? Around 1 million people in Germany are not allowed to work because their asylum application has not been processed yet. They lack education and have problems speaking the language. What do you think who feeds them and cares for them? Who pays for education? Sorry your naivity makes me angry.
Germany has not started the war in Syria and did not create the situation in Africa from which many people flee. I don't feel any obligation to care for the whole world while our schools are ailing, our infrastructure is neglected, our cities are indebted and are partly under administration.
If the policy in Germany continues from last year, the rise of right wing parties is inevitable.
Well, now you're also advocating against spending that money in Greece. The problem is that they are already there. It's not the case that Germany is telling Syrians to get on a plane from Damascus. It's hordes of Syrians crossing the mediterranean in leaky boats, because they think the situation is better n Europe than it is in Turkey. The question is thus, what to do with the ones that have already gotten into Europe. I don't think anybody disagrees with you that we should heavily disincentivize crossing into Europe in this manner in the first place, but you have to do something with the ones that are here. You can't send them back to Syria, for obvious reasons. You could try sending them back to Turkey, but they will (a) just try again, and (b) Turkey doesn't want them either (see all the retarded deals with Turkey over the last year to bribe them into taking the refugees back).
So, given that you don't think it's Germany's problem, do you advocate just letting the Greeks deal with it (and the Greek government is already bankrupt, so indirectly Germany would end up paying for it anyway)? Or how would you go about resolving this, admittedly shitty, situation?
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Please reread what I wrote. In my first post I described an alternative handling of the crisis. In my second post I described the situation how it is now.
I am not against giving money to Greece to help them if Dublin regulation is enforced. Those that are in Germany will stay until their asylum application is processed. During this time they hopefully learn the language. Then they can either stay and start working or they are sent back if their asylum claim is invalid. With the Balkan route closed it is much harder now to reach Germany, so they probably will not try again. In case of going through Italy and Austria, Austria has already stated they are going to close the Brenner route if immigration exceeds a certain amount. You realise in Austria FPÖ (right wing party) is becoming more and more popular, right?
They would by the way cost less in Greece than they cost in Germany because standards would be lower and everybody in Europe would pay and not only Germany. In the best case this could help Greece recover from economic woes, as these people need food and shelter and as long as this stuff is paid by someone else it's a boost to greek economy.
The reason behind this is that probably less people will cross the mediterranian if they know they will never reach Austria, Germany, the Netherlands or Sweden. We can also help refugees in Lebanon and Jordan and that is what we should do. And work internationally and try to end the war. (Easier said than done.)
I'm also not completely against taking in refugees in Germany, but with a limit. People should first have to seek refuge in neighbouring countries and not travel across the world and we should help these countries cope.
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On September 07 2016 22:02 Banaora wrote:
Where do you think the government gets its money from? Around 1 million people in Germany are not allowed to work because their asylum application has not been processed yet. They lack education and have problems speaking the language. What do you think who feeds them and cares for them? Who pays for education? Sorry your naivity makes me angry.
Germany has not started the war in Syria and did not create the situation in Africa from which many people flee. I don't feel any obligation to care for the whole world while our schools are ailing, our infrastructure is neglected, our cities are indebted and are partly under administration.
If the policy in Germany continues from last year, the rise of right wing parties is inevitable.
Where do you think the money is going to?
All the money the government is spending on the refugees goes back to the people. Refugees need food, food is bought from local stores within germany. Refugees need to be overseen by people who get paid. German people who get paid. All the money the refugee "crisis" is costing germany is going directly to the german people. Its tax money collected from the people and redistributed to the people. Dont act as if the money is teleported away into space or something.
You have to spent money either way. There is nothing you can do which does not cost money. So why not choose the solution which leaves the money within your own country? You could give it to greece (or any other european country which takes these refugees). You can give the money to turkey to persuade them to do something. Or, you know, you could keep the money within your own country.
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I would rather our money would go into our schools, our infrastructure and our cities. This would also create jobs for German people. And this is my opinion and I'm not going to change it.
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On September 08 2016 01:15 Banaora wrote:
I would rather our money would go into our schools, our infrastructure and our cities. This would also create jobs for German people. And this is my opinion and I'm not going to change it.
Non sequitur. You just said that helping to pay for refugee camps in Greece would be an acceptable solution for the crisis. That means German tax money gets sent to Greece. How much would that cost? We don't really know, but I don't see why it would necessarily be cheaper.
1. You state that all countries in Europe pay their fair share. But I don't see why Poland or Hungary would be any more willing to pay money to Greece than to accept an X amount of refugees. The way the plan was originally set up, each country would get a proportion of refugees, but other countries complained and refused to accept them. So if we use that same logic, they might equally well refuse to pay for the camps. Greece simply cannot pay for them (or, well, all their current money is EU loans anyway, so they would just use that and hasten the next bailout).
2. You state that camps in Greece are cheaper than refugee housing in Germany. At face value this is true, but all the construction, maintenance, and supplying of those camps in Greece is done by Greeks, and only a tiny percentage (at best) of the money spent on housing in Greece would ever come back to Germany, whereas the reverse is true for housing in Germany.
3. You state that if they have no hope of reaching Germany (or Sweden, NL, etc.), they might not come. This is conjecture, and it is also possible they would come anyway. They are pretty desperate to leave Turkey, because the situation there is not good (and worse still in Jordan or Lebanon).
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On September 08 2016 01:10 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2016 22:02 Banaora wrote:
Where do you think the government gets its money from? Around 1 million people in Germany are not allowed to work because their asylum application has not been processed yet. They lack education and have problems speaking the language. What do you think who feeds them and cares for them? Who pays for education? Sorry your naivity makes me angry.
Germany has not started the war in Syria and did not create the situation in Africa from which many people flee. I don't feel any obligation to care for the whole world while our schools are ailing, our infrastructure is neglected, our cities are indebted and are partly under administration.
If the policy in Germany continues from last year, the rise of right wing parties is inevitable. Where do you think the money is going to? All the money the government is spending on the refugees goes back to the people. Refugees need food, food is bought from local stores within germany. Refugees need to be overseen by people who get paid. German people who get paid. All the money the refugee "crisis" is costing germany is going directly to the german people. Its tax money collected from the people and redistributed to the people. Dont act as if the money is teleported away into space or something. You have to spent money either way. There is nothing you can do which does not cost money. So why not choose the solution which leaves the money within your own country? You could give it to greece (or any other european country which takes these refugees). You can give the money to turkey to persuade them to do something. Or, you know, you could keep the money within your own country. that's the fail, the trap because it doesn't happen that way and the inability to see it doesn't work that way, is what sinks the Merkel wannabees more and more.
the money do not go back to the people; some go to the government and some go to a selected few, those few who own said businesses. people will only get the bad things and they will only see the crimes.
so here you are, if you still don't get why people are up in arms well, ... there you go.
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You don't see why it would be cheaper? In Germany, Germany pays for everything. In Greece ideally the European Union would pay for everything because Greece has no money. Greece would only pay its share.
1. I think eastern Europe would pay because they just don't want them in their country. They already said they would for example support camps in Jordan or Lebanon. So why not Greece if people reach Greece? And about this plan: How stupid is it for Germany to come up with a plan and tell everybody to follow it, like a dictator? There were so many meetings for Greece. There should have been meetings how to cope with the refugee crisis and think out a plan together.
2. When you help it is okay that the money does not come back.
3. If you think so. There can never exist true evidence to this because you can always come up with an alternate explanation. Fact is, there are far less people coming this year than the year before. Fact is, the Balkan route is closed.
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On September 08 2016 02:29 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 01:10 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 07 2016 22:02 Banaora wrote:
Where do you think the government gets its money from? Around 1 million people in Germany are not allowed to work because their asylum application has not been processed yet. They lack education and have problems speaking the language. What do you think who feeds them and cares for them? Who pays for education? Sorry your naivity makes me angry.
Germany has not started the war in Syria and did not create the situation in Africa from which many people flee. I don't feel any obligation to care for the whole world while our schools are ailing, our infrastructure is neglected, our cities are indebted and are partly under administration.
If the policy in Germany continues from last year, the rise of right wing parties is inevitable. Where do you think the money is going to? All the money the government is spending on the refugees goes back to the people. Refugees need food, food is bought from local stores within germany. Refugees need to be overseen by people who get paid. German people who get paid. All the money the refugee "crisis" is costing germany is going directly to the german people. Its tax money collected from the people and redistributed to the people. Dont act as if the money is teleported away into space or something. You have to spent money either way. There is nothing you can do which does not cost money. So why not choose the solution which leaves the money within your own country? You could give it to greece (or any other european country which takes these refugees). You can give the money to turkey to persuade them to do something. Or, you know, you could keep the money within your own country. that's the fail, the trap because it doesn't happen that way and the inability to see it doesn't work that way, is what sinks the Merkel wannabees more and more. the money do not go back to the people; some go to the government and some go to a selected few, those few who own said businesses. people will only get the bad things and they will only see the crimes. so here you are, if you still don't get why people are up in arms well, ... there you go.
How? Please, I am serious, explain to me where you think the money will go to.
If the government spends like X millions a year on refugees, where does that money go to?
Housing, Food, Clothing, Education, Paperwork, etc.
If this money is spent within germany it will stay within germany.
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EPT
