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On August 27 2016 11:37 Plansix wrote:
I'm enjoying the gate keeping of secularism in this thread. One cannot be secular unless they agree to this strict line of principles and they do not conform, they are not true believers in secularism. Its nice to see folks embrace the worst aspects of religion.
You have to look at the context of such claims too: firstly, many European countries have sizable islamic minorities who have been living in those countries for multiple generations, but whose integration in society is very, very shallow (the reasons behind this are very diverse). On top of that, due to their religion, those minorities do sometimes make demands that, to the average westener, are just absurd and even downright medieval. We have lived under the yoke of religion - or rather of religious institutions - for more than 1700 years, so it strikes native people as odd or even offensive that there are others who would either wilfully subject themselves to this form of subjugation, or would force others to do so (e.g. children of Muslims don't have a choice but to be Muslim, men telling women how to dress, etc.). To top that off, there isn't a single religious state that wields economic and political power on the level of the Western secular states, which reinforces the view that Islam and its ideas on governance (which are completely outdated by more than a millenium) is a threat to "our" way of life. Secondly, close to 300 people (or more) have died in Islam-inspired terrorist attacks in France and Belgium over the past two years, and several more plans have been foiled.
Finally, people have noticed that there are migrants of other regions in the world who either blend in fairly easily in their new societies, or, if they do choose to live slightly secluded from society, do not make demands such as school menus or laws being tailored to their religious beliefs. In Belgium a sizeable part of the Muslim community was in an uproar when parliament passed a law that said that slaughtering an animal can only be done in a slaughter house because it meant that they could no longer slaughter a sheep at their homes. Now that same community has its panties in a bunch again because government would like to pass a law prohibiting the slaughtering of animals if they are not fully sedated (apparently the sheep to be slaughtered has to be awake).
It is also worth noting that these identity politics based on (non-)religious affiliation is fairly recent, and not in small part due to certain groups of immigrants not being able to establish a French or Belgian or German identity.
The whole thing is a lot more complicated than "white people using secularism as a veil for racist behaviour".
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How so ? Here i was thinking that what i am speaking about is actually not having special rights citizens.
How making special laws for a specific portion of citizens regarding their specific ideology is respecting the principe of "all equal before the law?"
You really seem like some others to refuse the very simple idea that school is supposed to be a neutral place and a neutral place implied equality and equality implied no special rights for ideology, basically,there is one communauty, the french one. I'm amazed how it can be hard to understand.
Yes, this is not how it works in the anglo saxon world, but this is how it works in France and I am very fine with his principles of equality AND that religious proselytism appears to be limited in school.
Basically, you're doing what you accuse us to do, ethnocentrism.
And that's why this kind of comparaison is totally missing the point:
It's comparable to saying we shouldn't promote art or politics in school because you happen to not be an artist and uninterested in politics and know you feel disadvantaged because you're not getting anything out of it.
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^well, that principle, among others, is why school in France is inefficient and a complete failure, but yeah. We're not teaching machines, we're teaching individuals. How about we start taking into account the fact that primary culture is acquired through family and not through school?
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On August 27 2016 17:52 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +
How so ? Here i was thinking that what i am speaking about is actually not having special rights citizens.
How making special laws for a specific portion of citizens regarding their specific ideology is respecting the principe of "all equal before the law?" You really seem like some others to refuse the very simple idea that school is supposed to be a neutral place and a neutral place implied equality and equality implied no special rights for ideology, basically,there is one communauty, the french one. I'm amazed how it can be hard to understand. Yes, this is not how it works in the anglo saxon world, but this is how it works in France and I am very fine with his principles of equality AND that religious proselytism appears to be limited in school. Basically, you're doing what you accuse us to do, ethnocentrism. And that's why this kind of comparaison is totally missing the point: Show nested quote +It's comparable to saying we shouldn't promote art or politics in school because you happen to not be an artist and uninterested in politics and know you feel disadvantaged because you're not getting anything out of it.
You either missquoted or missread me, since i said the oppossite and had been for pages back then. Obviously it's hard to understand how someone will basically agree with you, while saying you are standing for something you don't stand for. Well it's not hard, it's just baffling hence my question.
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On August 27 2016 08:28 Plansix wrote:
Having an alternative option for pork isn't a special right. Any student could ask to eat it if they wanted. At least that is how it works in the US.
france is becoming more and more like the US in that regard, hence a violent reaction from a part of the people in the country that want to preserve our view of secularism
i agree with koorb on that matter
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On August 27 2016 18:00 OtherWorld wrote:
^well, that principle, among others, is why school in France is inefficient and a complete failure, but yeah. We're not teaching machines, we're teaching individuals. How about we start taking into account the fact that primary culture is acquired through family and not through school?
School is complete failure says the "petit bourge" who is born with a silver spoon in the mouth and is absolutely horrified when a son of peasents drills their little social sphere. (I presume your social identity because hey, if school french system is a social failure, you speak English because you had a better social start right?)
School in France is not perfect but calling this a complete failure is totally wrong, yes there are people in here who think that the three pillars of Europe are free trade and stuff like this but the fact that some people are uneducated does not mean that it is a fail, the same goes for the fact that our society is in a deep social, economical, even spiritual crisis, school is part of it but not that responsible. The analphabetisation is really low, we still learn a shit ton of stuffs about history, maths, biology, literature, we still have the chance to do sth with that, ofc the chances are not the same for everyone, ofc there are a reproduction of social unequality, ofc it could be better but thinking that stopping this equality will stop it is absurd, you cannot be serious.
And for your last rhetorical question, I don't see why making school a neutral place is a refusal of taking into account this primary culture unless we took in consideration every particular culture of the citizens and make schools reserved to some communities. There are private schools for this.
However, I would say that the major problem of the school in France is not the same meat for everyone but the deep social segregation that many people like you try to hide behind these silly polemics.
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If I were to say "I want a law to enforce that schools must cater to the restrictions of religions X, Y and Z" then one could make a reasonable argument that that statement is inconsistent with secular values.
If I were to say "I don't want a law which enforces that schools must not cater to the restrictions of religions X, Y and Z" then I don't see a similar feasible argument.
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On August 27 2016 18:56 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 18:00 OtherWorld wrote:
^well, that principle, among others, is why school in France is inefficient and a complete failure, but yeah. We're not teaching machines, we're teaching individuals. How about we start taking into account the fact that primary culture is acquired through family and not through school? School is complete failure says the "petit bourge" who is born with a silver spoon in the mouth and is absolutely horrified when a son of peasents drills their little social sphere. (I presume your social identity because hey, if school french system is a social failure, you speak English because you had a better social start right?) School in France is not perfect but calling this a complete failure is totally wrong, yes there are people in here who think that the three pillars of Europe are free trade and stuff like this but the fact that some people are uneducated does not mean that it is a fail, the same goes for the fact that our society is in a deep social, economical, even spiritual crisis, school is part of it but not that responsible. The analphabetisation is really low, we still learn a shit ton of stuffs about history, maths, biology, literature, we still have the chance to do sth with that, ofc the chances are not the same for everyone, ofc there are a reproduction of social unequality, ofc it could be better but thinking that stopping this equality will stop it is absurd, you cannot be serious. And for your last rhetorical question, I don't see why making school a neutral place is a refusal of taking into account this primary culture unless we took in consideration every particular culture of the citizens and make schools reserved to some communities. There are private schools for this. However, I would say that the major problem of the school in France is not the same meat for everyone but the deep social segregation that many people like you try to hide behind these silly polemics.
Lol, I'm all for sons of peasents, or anyone for that matter, going up the social ladder, and anyone who isn't working, rich sons included, going down. If it was up to me, every private school, be it at collège, lycée or université level, would be illegal. I was born with the luck of having a favored background, that is true ; but I fought to succeed in the only field in France that you can study only through merit and hard work and not through buying your diploma, and I saw plenty of rich kids around me fail because they never learned before that they had to work to succeed (thankfully for them, our wonderful education system will allow them to buy their diploma in another field and they'll end up making decent money, thus perpetuating the flaws of the system).
But, as WhiteDog very correctly pointed out earlier, in France, social cohesion and integration is supposed to happen through l'Ecole de la République. If there is a deficit in social cohesion and integration, it seems pretty clear to me that the system that's supposed to create it - thus, school - is a failure. Why is it a failure? Well, I guess there are so many answers to this question that it's pointless to try to answer it. Unordered, here are a few hints* : unsatisfactory teaching of foreign languages, which only leads to an increase in inequalities ; inconsistency between the supposed (but unclear) objectives of school and the actual means put in action (example : we can think that nowadays the role of the collège/lycée is to teach to the greatest number possible, as shown by the fact that 80% of a age category achieves the bac. But then, why do we have harsh grades, or the bac in its old form of a final exam? And you can think it the other way around too ; in the end, it's inconsistent) ; students themselves often don't think of their school years as the best years of their life (while honestly they should ; they're young, most often don't have the burden of a job and familial repsonsabilities, etc) ; it punishes for failures more than it encourages for success ; there is a lack of social mix in schools nowadays ; there is a lack of emphasis on doing sports ; there is a lack of continuity between the lycée and university-level stuff, both in terms of workload and of work method, which also increases inequalities ; etc. And if you want another sign that it sucks, look at the Pisa rankings and the associated studies, that show both that France is getting worse and worse as far as school results are concerned, and that the gap between "very good" students and "bad" students (talking about their results only ofc, hence the quotation marks) is widening.
So yes, I stand my ground that the education system in France globally sucks. I think that, as a 21st century nation that apparently is proud enough of its culture to demand sovereignty and pretend to be powerful enough alone to be a major power on its own, we should strive for something more with our school system than "get illiteracy really low".
*If you're interested (or anyone for that matters), I have a more detailed PM written in French about the subject.
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http://johnpilger.com/articles/provoking-nuclear-war-by-media The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) in The Hague has quietly cleared the late Serbian president, Slobodan Milosevic, of war crimes committed during the 1992-95 Bosnian war, including the massacre at Srebrenica.
Far from conspiring with the convicted Bosnian-Serb leader Radovan Karadzic, Milosevic actually "condemned ethnic cleansing", opposed Karadzic and tried to stop the war that dismembered Yugoslavia. Buried near the end of a 2,590 page judgement on Karadzic last February, this truth further demolishes the propaganda that justified Nato's illegal onslaught on Serbia in 1999.
Milosevic died of a heart attack in 2006, alone in his cell in The Hague, during what amounted to a bogus trial by an American-invented "international tribunal". Denied heart surgery that might have saved his life, his condition worsened and was monitored and kept secret by US officials, as WikiLeaks has since revealed.
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On August 27 2016 11:37 Plansix wrote:
I'm enjoying the gate keeping of secularism in this thread. One cannot be secular unless they agree to this strict line of principles and they do not conform, they are not true believers in secularism. Its nice to see folks embrace the worst aspects of religion.
You mistake secularism for freedom of religion. France is not the US, we don't have in god we trust on our currency, and we don't swear on the bible.
Somehow nobody seems to care that in the US an atheist will never be able to be elected president just because he is atheist.
On August 27 2016 18:00 OtherWorld wrote:
^well, that principle, among others, is why school in France is inefficient and a complete failure, but yeah. We're not teaching machines, we're teaching individuals. How about we start taking into account the fact that primary culture is acquired through family and not through school?
That's the history of our country that you question here.
The main problem with our public school is spatial segregation, the school in itself function pretty well, despite all the stupid reforms.
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I am just curious. In France or Spain (or USA in Plansix case), people don't have the option to bring packed lunches? In UK a significant amount of school children have packed lunches, usually because they disagree with the school's choice in food (though nowadays it is a lot healthier and diverse than before) or to save money. It really wasn't that long ago that in UK that vegetarians or certain religious minorities such as Jews concerned about kosher foods would bring packed lunches. I am having a really hard time wrapping my head around the idea that food served in schools is a battleground between the secularization of the state and the religious beliefs of the families of students.
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I brought my own lunch to school for the vast majority of time I was in school. Takes a few minutes in the morning. The state doesn't have to provide you with a menu when everything is at the cost of the state. A sandwich with an apple doesn't cost more than the welfare the Muslims in France get I'm sure.
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Lotta people in US used to bring packed lunches. Probably still the case, though I haven't been in school for awhile.
For the poor, the free/reduced price school lunches are a thing a lot use; so they might be concerned if they don't have suitable options they can use.
Local school politics can be very intense at times.
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http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-apple-19-billion-tax-bill-next-week-state-aid-ireland-2016-8 The US and the European Union are gearing up for an epic showdown over Apple's tax bill — and it could happen as soon as next week.
The Financial Times reports that the European Commission is expected to rule next week in a three-year-long inquiry looking into Apple's tax arrangements with Ireland.
At stake is whether the deal Ireland struck with Apple amounts to "state aid," and is therefore illegal. Should the Commission rule against Ireland — which is what the FT reports is likely to happen — then Apple could face a tax bill in the billions.
The exact amount is up in the air — though JP Morgan estimates it could be as much as a whopping $19 billion.
The Obama administration is watching the case with concern, and has warned the Commission of potential consequences if it rules against Apple and Ireland.
The US Treasury said in a white paper published on Wednesday that it "continues to consider potential responses should the Commission continue its present course," and accused the Brussels investigation of being "supranational."
Apple and Ireland deny any wrongdoing, and are expected to appeal if hit with a negative ruling. Apple did not immediately respond to a request for comment. trading VW for Apple maybe?.
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^Well the VW case was such an abuse of power from the US (just like the BNP Paribas case) that it's only fair.
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Funny guys from the US. They want to tax all multinationals overseas earnings but the EU isn't allowed to. Hypocrisy much.
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There's a lot of concern in the US about companies doing tax inversions by going abroad like that; so i'd imagine the US just wants a settlement where the US gets the tax money, but is fine with the taxes being assessed.
the problem of international taxation is complicated with how much companies can try to fake shift money around to fake where the money is really being made. so I disagree with your snark rvb.
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Yes but the poor in the US have a bad thing going where they now expect the school to give them food that the school actually doesn't have to give them. (In some small parts I should add, it's not everywhere I believe). So they are immediately becoming more and more reliant on the government to live. Can't find the proper clip right now but basically they are going to the school for food on hours where the school actually has no obligation to feed them. i.e. Summer time. They still expect the government to hand them out food.
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On August 27 2016 22:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I am just curious. In France or Spain (or USA in Plansix case), people don't have the option to bring packed lunches? In UK a significant amount of school children have packed lunches, usually because they disagree with the school's choice in food (though nowadays it is a lot healthier and diverse than before) or to save money. It really wasn't that long ago that in UK that vegetarians or certain religious minorities such as Jews concerned about kosher foods would bring packed lunches. I am having a really hard time wrapping my head around the idea that food served in schools is a battleground between the secularization of the state and the religious beliefs of the families of students.
I don't know about France, yes you can perfectly bring your own food (it is very rare, since our lective hours differ, if you are not eating at school, you are doing it at home). I had a food intoxication with cheese, so whenever cheese was on the menu, i brought packed lunch from home for a few years (it was the worst).
Testie, one sandwich and an apple is not a full lunch like we are speaking about. Or maybe it is on Canada, but not here.
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EPT
