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On May 23 2016 04:11 xpldngmn wrote:Finally made it to the train so I got a few minutes to type a few lines for my international audience here  Show nested quote +On May 23 2016 02:36 Mafe wrote:On May 23 2016 02:22 xpldngmn wrote:50:50 in the presidential election here in Austria and ppl discuss jessie Hughes. Yeah well that's what I also could have foreseen for the US, if Sanders was democratic candidate. Anyway, austrian politics seems to have turned into a giant clusterfuck over the last 1-2 decades, from what I've read in the last weeks. The worst thing (for me) about this is that the way Hofer is portayed unfairly here in germany, receiving tons of criticism while questionable remarks by van der Bellen are more or less ignored, I almost want to root for him.... Questionable remarks by van der Bellen? I'd really like to read those. Hofer did get some slack, but he isn't the most honest man. Much like Trump, he sees reality only the way he and his followers see it. + Show Spoiler +
The facts:
In the first round the candidates from the usual big parties (social democrats and people's party) scored only 4th and 5th place. Norbert Hofer (FPÖ, courts decided it to be legal to call the rightwing populists) won it with a huge margin, van der Bellen "independent candidate" (former leader of green party, the best they ever got, he's an economics Prof at University) got second. Griss, the only female candidate was 3rd, she is the only real independent candidate and former judge at highest administrative Court. Predictions all saw van der Bellen as the clear winner, so for the final ballot none were released. Things got pretty heated in the last to weeks.
So what's new? Nobody thought the FPÖ might surpass 30 % in any vote.
My very personal interpretation:
Social democrats and people's party have completely forgotten their roots (workers; farmers and small businesses) and only cater towards their own interests. When it comes to public jobs, there is the saying that you have to get 3 people. One social democrat, one from the people's party and one who actually does the job.
People got fed up with that and started to vote for FPÖ under Jörg Haider. People think the FPÖ is the only party that cares for the man on the street. (Which they clearly don't they are in favour of cutting down welfare, but constantly bash on immigrants and refugees so no one notices.) Haider, although gay was fishing for far right voters as well, he made remarks about the good job policies in the 3rd reich an so on. FPÖ is still flirting with those groups. They deny any allegations with far right groups (being Nazi openly is forbidden in Austria) like the Mouvance identitaire, but they always flirt with nazi ideology and Norbert Hofer is member of a fraternity that wants to see a großdeutsches Reich again, the FPÖ's party leader took part in some paramilitary trainings with austria's biggest neonazi and so on. It just never stops with these guys. Their international friends include front national, AFD, Vlaam's Belang, Kadyrow and swiss' SVP.
FPÖ made it into a coalition in the last decade, courts will have to work another ten years to solve all the mischief done in this period.
Greens are greens like they are everywere I suppose. People call them a "prohibition party" because they want to ban smoking from bars (smokers come to Austria, it is great here) and want to make people use public transport instead of their own cars and so on. Ofc there are some delusional lefties, but none are openly violent. Van der Bellen was a very centrist proponent of the green party, all in favor of free trade (him not being in total opposition to TTIP might have cost him some votes) and stuff.
I think in this vote it came down to a few major factors:
People who believe in european integration and an open society voted for van der Bellen. Those who think an isolationist course (all those refugees!) is the better way to go voted for Hofer.
The disparities between male:female and educated:uneducated voters are huge.
Well after checking a few articles again I guess I was exaggerating a bit: There was this escalating tv duel, where both candidates were insulting each other. From the inital reports (havent seen it myself), I though both were involved about equally, but also that in the last days, mainly Hofer's action were still brought up. Upon closer review, this duel was barely mentioned anymore, for both about equally. So nothing really worth mentioning here.
That leaves one more thing: I read that van der Bellen would now allow an FPÖ-led government to be sworn; he'd rather dissolve the parliament. Now he said that a few months ago, when he wasnt an official candidate yet. but still, I dont think thats acceptable. Also, he apparently said afterwards that he might allow given "certain circumstances". But so Hofer did for some of his more controversial remarks (more both in number and in level of controversity), and they are still talking points nevertheless.
Maybe there is something I'm missing, feel free to tell me.
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On May 23 2016 04:11 xpldngmn wrote:Finally made it to the train so I got a few minutes to type a few lines for my international audience here Show nested quote +On May 23 2016 02:36 Mafe wrote:On May 23 2016 02:22 xpldngmn wrote:50:50 in the presidential election here in Austria and ppl discuss jessie Hughes. Yeah well that's what I also could have foreseen for the US, if Sanders was democratic candidate. Anyway, austrian politics seems to have turned into a giant clusterfuck over the last 1-2 decades, from what I've read in the last weeks. The worst thing (for me) about this is that the way Hofer is portayed unfairly here in germany, receiving tons of criticism while questionable remarks by van der Bellen are more or less ignored, I almost want to root for him.... Questionable remarks by van der Bellen? I'd really like to read those. Hofer did get some slack, but he isn't the most honest man. Much like Trump, he sees reality only the way he and his followers see it. The facts: In the first round the candidates from the usual big parties (social democrats and people's party) scored only 4th and 5th place. Norbert Hofer (FPÖ, courts decided it to be legal to call the rightwing populists) won it with a huge margin, van der Bellen "independent candidate" (former leader of green party, the best they ever got, he's an economics Prof at University) got second. Griss, the only female candidate was 3rd, she is the only real independent candidate and former judge at highest administrative Court. Predictions all saw van der Bellen as the clear winner, so for the final ballot none were released. Things got pretty heated in the last to weeks. So what's new? Nobody thought the FPÖ might surpass 30 % in any vote. My very personal interpretation: Social democrats and people's party have completely forgotten their roots (workers; farmers and small businesses) and only cater towards their own interests. When it comes to public jobs, there is the saying that you have to get 3 people. One social democrat, one from the people's party and one who actually does the job. People got fed up with that and started to vote for FPÖ under Jörg Haider. People think the FPÖ is the only party that cares for the man on the street. (Which they clearly don't they are in favour of cutting down welfare, but constantly bash on immigrants and refugees so no one notices.) Haider, although gay was fishing for far right voters as well, he made remarks about the good job policies in the 3rd reich an so on. FPÖ is still flirting with those groups. They deny any allegations with far right groups (being Nazi openly is forbidden in Austria) like the Mouvance identitaire, but they always flirt with nazi ideology and Norbert Hofer is member of a fraternity that wants to see a großdeutsches Reich again, the FPÖ's party leader took part in some paramilitary trainings with austria's biggest neonazi and so on. It just never stops with these guys. Their international friends include front national, AFD, Vlaam's Belang, Kadyrow and swiss' SVP. FPÖ made it into a coalition in the last decade, courts will have to work another ten years to solve all the mischief done in this period. Greens are greens like they are everywere I suppose. People call them a "prohibition party" because they want to ban smoking from bars (smokers come to Austria, it is great here) and want to make people use public transport instead of their own cars and so on. Ofc there are some delusional lefties, but none are openly violent. Van der Bellen was a very centrist proponent of the green party, all in favor of free trade (him not being in total opposition to TTIP might have cost him some votes) and stuff. I think in this vote it came down to a few major factors: People who believe in european integration and an open society voted for van der Bellen. Those who think an isolationist course (all those refugees!) is the better way to go voted for Hofer. The disparities between male:female and educated:uneducated voters are huge.
Is there actually an Austrian far-right group called "Mouvance Identitaire"?
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On May 22 2016 21:17 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2016 18:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 22 2016 08:47 Nyxisto wrote:On May 22 2016 04:24 WhiteDog wrote:On May 21 2016 17:36 zeo wrote:Eagles of Death Metal Dropped From French Music Festivals After Anti-Muslim Comments
The band was dropped after comments from lead singer Justin Huges about the Paris attacks
The Eagles of Death Metal have been dropped from two French music festivals this summer after anti-Muslim commentary on last year’s Paris terrorist attacks by the band’s lead singer.
The Rock en Seine concert in Paris and the Cabaret Vert festival in northern France released a statement Friday, cited by the Associated Press, in which the groups said they are “in total disagreement” with recent statements made by the band’s frontman Jessie Hughes. Hughes gave an interview last week with the online Taki’s Magazine, saying he saw “terrorists” in the venue before the fateful concert at the Bataclan on Nov. 13 and that he witnessed “Muslims celebrating in the street during the attack.” http://time.com/4343854/eagles-of-death-metal-paris-attacks-france/#justeuropeanthings This crack me up. The guy goes through an horrible terrorist attack made by islamic radicals, make one clear cut and maybe not so bright comment, and get cancelled by the PR forces. How awesome, do stupid people from the left actually think banning thoughts is useful ? Shouldn't confuse the consequences of saying random shit with banning thoughts. We really need to get this out of these discussions because "free speech" isn't a license to behave like an asshole This. I steal you the cartoon; I find really annoying all those discussions about people complaining about the "PC police" and the fact that "lefties don't want to discuss and prefer banning thought", when it's really not about free speech and thought police, but about people not liking you and not wanting to talk to you and give you a platform simply because you are a douchebag. So you are entirely fine with the extreme right asking for Black M to be removed from the verdun event ?
I don't know Black M, but if the extreme right is pressuring the organizer and the organizer decides to cancel an artist, I think the organizer has a problem. I would question the organizer's ethic, not because he cancelled someone, but because he cares about fascist people's opinion enough to change his program.
So, I'm totally fine with the extreme right asking stuff and even more when they are told to fuck off.
I would have a BIG problem if politicians were threatening said organizer with subvention and funding blackmail for a political agenda, of course. But from what I understand, with EoDM, the decision came from the organizers themselves, not from outside politically motivated pressure. Personally if I am a festival or event organizer and an artist starts saying in the press such nauseus crap, I would of course cancel him. I mean why wouldn't I?
If you hire an artist, and then he come out as a nazi in an interview and say Hitler was totally right, well, I hope you would cancel his gig. Anyway, I would. And, if I were part of an audience in a festival, I would want the said nazi musician not to be given a platform, and would consider not attending if he did.
Again, you have the right to be an asshole, but people have the right to cancel your gigs. Don't see the problem.
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Austria’s political future is on a knife-edge, with the candidate bidding to be the European Union’s first far-right president holding a wafer-thin lead over his rival.
According to the public broadcaster ORF, Norbert Hofer of the rightwing populist Freedom party (FPÖ) was neck and neck on 50% with his rival Alexander Van der Bellen, a former Green party leader who is running as an independent.
Postal ballots, accounting for 14% of eligible voters and expected to favour the left-leaning candidate, will only be tallied on Monday. Fifty per cent and one vote would suffice to hand the presidency to one of the two candidates. Data from Austria’s interior ministry, which does not take into account the projected postal vote, put Hofer on 51.9% and Van der Bellen on 48.1%.
Even though the Austrian presidency is mainly a ceremonial role, a vote of around 50% for the far-right politician Hofer already represents a political earthquake in a country in which two centrist parties have dominated the landscape since 1945, and will be celebrated as a triumph by xenophobic parties across the continent.
Initial exit poll results had shown a slender lead for Hofer. However, the economist academic Van der Bellen performed strongly in cities across the country, gaining 62% of the vote in Graz, 61% in Vienna and 56% in Salzburg.
Voter turnout was 71.8%, up on the first round of the presidential election in April.
Hofer arrived at the FPÖ party to enthusiastic chants of ‘Norbert! Norbert!’ as the party chief Heinz-Christian Strache paid tribute to his achievement. “The entire encrusted, failed system has linked arms with Norbert,” he said. “Half of Austrians chose to take Norbert’s path ... it’s a new awakening! Today history has been made.”
Hofer, sporting a spotty tie and a pink handkerchief in his jacket pocket, said nobody yet knew who would be president of Austria on Monday, “but we’ve made history. Eleven years ago this party had just 3% ... today every second Austrian voted for the FPÖ.”
He repeated the assessment of election observers who say that postal votes, which are still being counted, will be the deciding factor in the final outcome. “It could well be the case that after counting postal votes that we’re not quite at the front, but I’d say we’ve won anyway,” Hofer said.
Source
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On May 23 2016 06:04 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2016 04:11 xpldngmn wrote:Finally made it to the train so I got a few minutes to type a few lines for my international audience here On May 23 2016 02:36 Mafe wrote:On May 23 2016 02:22 xpldngmn wrote:50:50 in the presidential election here in Austria and ppl discuss jessie Hughes. Yeah well that's what I also could have foreseen for the US, if Sanders was democratic candidate. Anyway, austrian politics seems to have turned into a giant clusterfuck over the last 1-2 decades, from what I've read in the last weeks. The worst thing (for me) about this is that the way Hofer is portayed unfairly here in germany, receiving tons of criticism while questionable remarks by van der Bellen are more or less ignored, I almost want to root for him.... Questionable remarks by van der Bellen? I'd really like to read those. Hofer did get some slack, but he isn't the most honest man. Much like Trump, he sees reality only the way he and his followers see it. The facts: In the first round the candidates from the usual big parties (social democrats and people's party) scored only 4th and 5th place. Norbert Hofer (FPÖ, courts decided it to be legal to call the rightwing populists) won it with a huge margin, van der Bellen "independent candidate" (former leader of green party, the best they ever got, he's an economics Prof at University) got second. Griss, the only female candidate was 3rd, she is the only real independent candidate and former judge at highest administrative Court. Predictions all saw van der Bellen as the clear winner, so for the final ballot none were released. Things got pretty heated in the last to weeks. So what's new? Nobody thought the FPÖ might surpass 30 % in any vote. My very personal interpretation: Social democrats and people's party have completely forgotten their roots (workers; farmers and small businesses) and only cater towards their own interests. When it comes to public jobs, there is the saying that you have to get 3 people. One social democrat, one from the people's party and one who actually does the job. People got fed up with that and started to vote for FPÖ under Jörg Haider. People think the FPÖ is the only party that cares for the man on the street. (Which they clearly don't they are in favour of cutting down welfare, but constantly bash on immigrants and refugees so no one notices.) Haider, although gay was fishing for far right voters as well, he made remarks about the good job policies in the 3rd reich an so on. FPÖ is still flirting with those groups. They deny any allegations with far right groups (being Nazi openly is forbidden in Austria) like the Mouvance identitaire, but they always flirt with nazi ideology and Norbert Hofer is member of a fraternity that wants to see a großdeutsches Reich again, the FPÖ's party leader took part in some paramilitary trainings with austria's biggest neonazi and so on. It just never stops with these guys. Their international friends include front national, AFD, Vlaam's Belang, Kadyrow and swiss' SVP. FPÖ made it into a coalition in the last decade, courts will have to work another ten years to solve all the mischief done in this period. Greens are greens like they are everywere I suppose. People call them a "prohibition party" because they want to ban smoking from bars (smokers come to Austria, it is great here) and want to make people use public transport instead of their own cars and so on. Ofc there are some delusional lefties, but none are openly violent. Van der Bellen was a very centrist proponent of the green party, all in favor of free trade (him not being in total opposition to TTIP might have cost him some votes) and stuff. I think in this vote it came down to a few major factors: People who believe in european integration and an open society voted for van der Bellen. Those who think an isolationist course (all those refugees!) is the better way to go voted for Hofer. The disparities between male:female and educated:uneducated voters are huge. Is there actually an Austrian far-right group called "Mouvance Identitaire"?
yes, but "Identitäre Bewegung" in german
On more thing to add would be that the president in Austria has some interesting powers, which were never used by any of the presidents in the past, because they are rather extreme and it wasn't necessary. Generally what the president is supposed to do is travel around and meet other presidents, talk business opportunities, make connections and that kind of stuff.
What he actually could also do too would be to disband the parliament, refuse to accept certain ministers a government wants to put into power, or refuse the whole government.
A lot of the discussion before the elections was about how the candidates saw their role, and how they would go about using these powers, with VdB stating that he'd refuse an FPÖ chancelor, even if the FPÖ got 1st place in coming up elections, because of their negative stance towards the EU.
Hofer on the other hand stated that he'd sack the current government, if it didn't work properly (whatever that would mean), and hinted that he wanted to put pressure on the government in doing so.
For austrian standards these two are both radical stances, with, in my opinion, the Hofer stance even worse than the VDB one, since it could create a situation where the president dictates what the government has to do, a dictatorship out of a 51% election turnout in a worst case scenario.
Also he could force a new election in this situation right now where the FPÖ is leading in every poll, therefore having high chances for a FPÖ led government.
Now this is all speculation, but it's not something i'd like to see go down, anyway, lets see how it turns out and watch, can't do much more anyway :D
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So Van der Bellen won apparently ?
Independent candidate Alexander Van der Bellen has won Austria's presidential election, preventing Norbert Hofer from becoming the EU's first far-right head of state, the BBC has been told.
Mr Hofer led narrowly after Sunday's election but postal votes counted on Monday gave Mr Van der Bellen victory.
Mr Van der Bellen campaigned on a pro-EU platform, backed by the Green Party.
Mr Hofer, of the Freedom Party, had tapped into anti-EU sentiment and fears about rising numbers of asylum seekers.
The official result is expected to be announced shortly.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36362505
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On May 23 2016 23:51 Noizhende wrote:yes, here's the governmental page with details (dunno if there's an english version though) http://wahl16.bmi.gv.at/
Some huge disparities between rural and urban areas. It's the exact same for the national front in France.
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On May 23 2016 23:55 WhiteDog wrote:Some huge disparities between rural and urban areas. It's the exact same for the national front in France.
I dunno if there's an actual study on that, but I think Europeans who vote for far-right/populists parties share the same broad characteristics, statistically speaking (live in rural areas, don't have a fuckton of diplomas, poor opinion of strangers of all kind, defiant of globalization and free trade, hates the EU, age < 60, unemployed (? unsure) or facing difficulties to find a job, ...)
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On May 23 2016 23:55 WhiteDog wrote:Some huge disparities between rural and urban areas. It's the exact same for the national front in France.
Yes, also Northwest vs Southeast.
A question of openness to multiculturalism, and seeing its reality in the cities vs not seeing it in the rural areas.
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On May 24 2016 00:05 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2016 23:55 WhiteDog wrote:On May 23 2016 23:51 Noizhende wrote:yes, here's the governmental page with details (dunno if there's an english version though) http://wahl16.bmi.gv.at/ Some huge disparities between rural and urban areas. It's the exact same for the national front in France. I dunno if there's an actual study on that, but I think Europeans who vote for far-right/populists parties share the same broad characteristics, statistically speaking (live in rural areas, don't have a fuckton of diplomas, poor opinion of strangers of all kind, defiant of globalization and free trade, hates the EU, age < 60, unemployed (? unsure) or facing difficulties to find a job, ...)
here are some graphs concerning those questions (sadly in german too, sry :-/ )
http://derstandard.at/2000037398941/Wer-wen-gewaehlt-hat?ref=rec
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By the way, in addition to not having the first far-right president in the EU, Austria now has, to my knowledge, the first and only Green president in Europe, which I think is worth noting as well.
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Austria was bound to be a first in something regardless. It's strange though. I travelled around Austria around some of the rural areas and didn't feel there was any "far-right" feeling. The rural areas don't seem to be affected by the refugees at all, since as far as I could tell the vast majority of them were travelling through trains to Germany, stopping only at the major cities.. So why would it be the rural areas directly reacting to immigration? Could someone throw some light on this?
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On May 25 2016 00:09 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Austria was bound to be a first in something regardless. It's strange though. I travelled around Austria around some of the rural areas and didn't feel there was any "far-right" feeling. The rural areas don't seem to be affected by the refugees at all, since as far as I could tell the vast majority of them were travelling through trains to Germany, stopping only at the major cities.. So why would it be the rural areas directly reacting to immigration? Could someone throw some light on this?
The rural areas are pretty much unaffected by immigrants, who mostly live in the cities. However, the more rural, the more conservative and sceptical towards change and anything unknown people get. The large cities are melting pots that, by and large, work pretty well, and people there are used to new influences. The tendency to vote right-wing also increases with low income and lower education, which are more prevalent in the countryside than in the cities with their students and highly paid jobs. In addition to the refugee crisis, the FPÖ's success is also a symptom of a very understandable dissatisfaction with the government and politics in general.
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so ~49% of Austria's population is uneducated ...
come one dude. you had at least 20% of those educated 51% ones still voting for the far right. why?.
but you know what, good thing you know whats up. 
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That's a rather gross misrepresentation of what Scorch has written xmZ. Thanks for your opinion Scorch.
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On May 25 2016 01:59 xM(Z wrote:so ~49% of Austria's population is uneducated ... come one dude. you had at least 20% of those educated 51% ones still voting for the far right. why?. but you know what, good thing you know whats up.
Look, dude, here are some numbers (in German of course): http://derstandard.at/2000037398941/Wer-wen-gewaehlt-hat
Don't kill the messenger.
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On May 25 2016 01:59 xM(Z wrote:so ~49% of Austria's population is uneducated ... come one dude. you had at least 20% of those educated 51% ones still voting for the far right. why?. but you know what, good thing you know whats up.
it's not a question of an absolute uneducatedness, but a relative compared to a necessary level to make conscious political decisions.
i'd say the percentage of people in this country, who don't have this necessary level is much higher and abroad is not different.
Why do you think politics went full on emotion-led and leader centered campaigns instead of focusing on constructive discussion of issues? Because you win elections by capturing the stupid masses, not by trying to get the 2 guys who know the big picture.
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well you could've easily said people vote based on their wallet and be (more)right; frame it as a poor vs rich issue(in relative terms).
educated people make, on average, more money(or have more advantages/prospects) in the current system/establishment so they would be pro status quo; the reverse is true for the uneducated.
so, unless one of the/your arguments is that the uneducated austrians can not comprehend a political platform, you have nothing; worse actually, you divide people in castes and sic them onto each other.
(ps: i'm using "you" as in: you - the idea/concept not you - the person; You, as a speaker, represent the idea itself)
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I don't even know what you're trying to argue. The question was to explain the rift between cities and the countryside, and I attempted to do that based on statistics. One of these statistics shows a clear correlation between low formal education and likelihood of voting for Hofer. I never said all right-wing voters are stupid, which you seem to insinuate.
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EPT
