|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On October 13 2015 05:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 05:35 LegalLord wrote:On October 13 2015 03:42 Nyxisto wrote:On October 13 2015 00:42 LegalLord wrote:
Whether or not you agree with the underlying reasons, in the case of Muslim immigration, the concerns are more substantiated by evidence (Muslims and Muslim immigrants have a much less defensible history than that of Mexican immigrants). What the heck is a defensible history? Do Muslims now need to be extra obedient when going to Spain because the Otttomans once invaded the place? Do I need to apologize in advance when travelling to Paris? I think it's funny that you accuse other people of lacking logic while basing your entire argument on some kind of vague historical fear campaign of 'the Muslim' who invades foreign nations and destroys their culture. The historic tendencies of a group of people are not to be ignored. It's easy to try to say that "it's different this time" but history has shown that it really isn't - a group of people who have violent and destructive tendencies will have them again. Recent history is quite well-populated with Islamic groups whose goals quite blatantly include the destruction of western society. It takes the most clueless kind of naivete not to take them at their word. Should Muslims be extra obedient in major transportation hubs such as subways and airports (and in general in countries where there have been recent jihad campaigns), in light of the many recent terrorist attacks committed by other Muslims? Absolutely. Should you be expected to be more courteous and respectful of local customs when traveling to Israel, Poland, or the former USSR, in light of the mass genocide committed by Germans on the inhabitants? Absolutely. The suspicion was well-earned and while no group should be persecuted for that in and of itself, the scrutiny is quite justified. Historical precedent is neither vague nor unjustified. It might be "out of fashion" among left-leaning groups, but its existence is not without purpose. I am pretty sure someone in the US said along these lines during WWII when we put all Japanese US citizens in camps. I bet is sounded logical and well reasoned at the time too. It was only later, when we had the distance and time to reflect that we collectively realized it was bigoted and wrong. But I’m sure the people making the call used language like “historic tendencies of a group of people are not to be ignored.”
Japan and the USA were at war. The American government was not sure to whom those Japanese citizens were loyal to - the USA or Japan and suspecting it might be the latter was not without merit. While collective responsibility is wrong, sometimes taking such drastic preventive measures is choosing the lesser evil. During WWII German minority in occupied Poland actively participated in all forms of persecution against Poles and Jews, including the genocide. In an alternative universe - where Poland had somehow managed to stop the German onslaught (let's say that there had been no Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact and Allies had actually helped us) - our government would've put all German citizens in internment camps, and now we would've been ranting how bigoted and wrong it had been...
|
On a road weaving through a forest on Hungary's southern border with Serbia, police lie in wait.
Migrants who manage to squeeze through holes cut in a barbed-wire border fence and walk north eventually have to cross Route 55 — where Hungarian police are ready for them.
Backed by agents from Frontex, the European Union's border control agency, the cops stop dozens of migrants and refugees as they emerge from the forest. They point guns and shine bright lights into the faces of frightened Iraqis and Syrians.
The refugees, mostly men, are instructed to sit cross-legged in the grass, at the side of the road. Then police use dogs to corral them into a police van and take them to jail.
Officials say an average of 100 foreigners a day are arrested here. That number is relatively low because last month, Hungary sealed its Serbian border with a 10-foot-high fence topped with razor wire.
Migrants must now enter at official border crossings, with proper visas — or cut through the barbed wire and crawl through.
The chaos and confusion of Europe's migration crisis is perhaps best reflected here in Hungary, where treatment of migrants is drastically different depending on which border they cross, and how.
Hungarian troops are building a second fence along the border with Croatia, but that frontier is not yet closed — and some 6,000 migrants arrive there daily.
Source
|
Don't see the "chaos and confusion" in Europe, i see Hungary doing pretty decent job at containing the situation given the circumstances.
They point guns and shine bright lights into the faces of frightened Iraqis and Syrians.
Poor guys, surely had no idea that they were not supposed to cross that border, wired fence not obvious enough i guess.
|
Well after fleeing from a war zone I can imagine better things than being shelled with rubber bullets by zealous hussars.
On October 13 2015 05:35 LegalLord wrote:
The historic tendencies of a group of people are not to be ignored. It's easy to try to say that "it's different this time" but history has shown that it really isn't - a group of people who have violent and destructive tendencies will have them again. Recent history is quite well-populated with Islamic groups whose goals quite blatantly include the destruction of western
I just love the general tone of this. Muslims live here already for decades, they don't have to proof anything. Probably every fifth student at my university is Muslim, they guy selling the groceries down the street is Muslim, they're very real normal people. They're not alien. This hasn't anything to do with history, you're afraid of Muslims the same way you're scared of spiders, it's just primitive fear of things you don't personally experience. It's not by accident that the most Islamophobic people in Germany live in Eastern Germany, where only 2% of German Muslims actually live.
|
Protesters and police have fought running battles in Kosovo after the arrest of a prominent opposition politician who opened a teargas canister in parliament as he campaigns to overturn a landmark deal with Serbia.
Clouds of teargas filled streets in central Pristina as police drove back several hundred protesters lobbing stones and concrete at the main police station to demand the release of Albin Kurti, a member of parliament and founder of the opposition’s Self-Determination party.
Several vehicles belonging to state authorities were burnt, a Reuters reporter said.
Kurti was later released. His arrest followed an incident in parliament last week in which he opened a teargas canister, forcing the evacuation of MPs, in protest at a European Union-brokered deal to give more local powers to Kosovo’s ethnic Serb minority.
Source
|
On October 13 2015 09:32 Nyxisto wrote:Well after fleeing from a war zone I can imagine better things than being shelled with rubber bullets by zealous hussars. Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 05:35 LegalLord wrote:
The historic tendencies of a group of people are not to be ignored. It's easy to try to say that "it's different this time" but history has shown that it really isn't - a group of people who have violent and destructive tendencies will have them again. Recent history is quite well-populated with Islamic groups whose goals quite blatantly include the destruction of western I just love the general tone of this. Muslims live here already for decades, they don't have to proof anything. Probably every fifth student at my university is Muslim, they guy selling the groceries down the street is Muslim, they're very real normal people. They're not alien. This hasn't anything to do with history, you're afraid of Muslims the same way you're scared of spiders, it's just primitive fear of things you don't personally experience. It's not by accident that the most Islamophobic people in Germany live in Eastern Germany, where only 2% of German Muslims actually live.
Well, hypothetically, if there were an organization in the Middle East whose explicit purpose was to create a caliphate in the area, and if, hypothetically, they were to recruit from European Muslims who were to be trained, used as soldiers, then sent back to their home countries to bring jihad there, maybe we should be suspicious of them even if they have lived here for decades. Furthermore, hypothetically, if it were well-known that their religious convictions told them that the laws of the land are secondary to the laws of their religion and that if there is a conflict, that local laws are not to be respected, perhaps that would be worthy of suspicion. If that were the case, then perhaps it would make sense to keep an eye out, even if anecdotally they "seem normal" to some people who, based on principles that that group seems to discard as irrelevant, believe that people should be given the benefit of the doubt.
The few posters here from the former Yugoslavia have had rather less flattering personal accounts of the Muslim population, and they actually live near that population. I also come from a country (Russia) where our experiences with local Muslims have been less-than-stellar. In times of strength on teh part of the host nation, they are rather peaceful, but during periods of instability (like the post-USSR years) there are notable militant tendencies that have been seen among the population. Perhaps you think the situation is different in Germany right now, and that's fair. I personally find the likelihood of that to be slim to none, and the justification of that to be republican principles which assume too much goodwill on the part of many of the immigrants and locals.
|
You picked like the worst examples possible. Couldn't you choose regions where Muslims weren't attacked by Christians in the 90s?
|
Killing children is not a valid form of self-defense. Any form of retaliation for military action that is exacted on civilians is generally strongly condemned by most nations of the first world.
Frankly, you went wrong when you said "attacked by Christians." Except maybe Kosovo, there were few explicit religious motivations for the 90's actions in Yugoslavia and Chechnya - it was about keeping the nation together. That's a pretty secular motivation.
|
To get back to the event in France and give a little perspective on this through the eyes of an ex "conti". Sadly there are no translation in english, but it's very relevant. Maybe someone better than me could give a little translation.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
On October 13 2015 05:35 LegalLord wrote:
The historic tendencies of a group of people are not to be ignored. It's easy to try to say that "it's different this time" but history has shown that it really isn't - a group of people who have violent and destructive tendencies will have them again.
In that case we should be extra careful of christian and european immigrants I guess.
I mean take a look at a globe, white christian immigrants immigrated to 3 continents.
Look at those white christian americans for example: didn't adapt to the new culture, instead murdered and marginalized the host culture and give smallpox blankets to your kids.
URG! Wouldn't want those white christians as neighbours - worst immigrants ever! :/
|
On October 14 2015 07:48 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 05:35 LegalLord wrote:
The historic tendencies of a group of people are not to be ignored. It's easy to try to say that "it's different this time" but history has shown that it really isn't - a group of people who have violent and destructive tendencies will have them again. In that case we should be extra careful of christian and european immigrants I guess. I mean take a look at a globe, white christian immigrants immigrated to 3 continents. Look at those white christian americans for example: didn't adapt to the new culture, instead murdered and marginalized the host culture and give smallpox blankets to your kids. URG! Wouldn't want those white christians as neighbours - worst immigrants ever! :/
You forgot to mention crusades.
|
On October 14 2015 07:48 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 05:35 LegalLord wrote:
The historic tendencies of a group of people are not to be ignored. It's easy to try to say that "it's different this time" but history has shown that it really isn't - a group of people who have violent and destructive tendencies will have them again. In that case we should be extra careful of christian and european immigrants I guess. I mean take a look at a globe, white christian immigrants immigrated to 3 continents. Look at those white christian americans for example: didn't adapt to the new culture, instead murdered and marginalized the host culture and give smallpox blankets to your kids. URG! Wouldn't want those white christians as neighbours - worst immigrants ever! :/
Jokes aside, any nation that is not of European/Christian descent would indeed do well to be wary of that group. Probably not for religious reasons, but certainly for imperialistic tendencies (a tendency not shared by all cultures in the world).
|
Spain & Portugal were occupied by the Islamic Moors for 900 years so it's reasonable to be wary of such a large influx of Islamic refugees.
|
Uhm... most of the known world at the time was occupied by Romans. So we shouldn't trust Italy...
|
On October 14 2015 18:19 Velr wrote:
Uhm... most of the known world at the time was occupied by Romans. So we shouldn't trust Italy...
And the muslim moors back then had a pretty open culture (especially compared to most european countries at the time) : when the christians took back spain and portugal, most jews fled with the muslim for obvious reasons.
Those long historical arguments are pointless : there is enough in history to depict anyone as a criminal or an angel. Another exemple : in The Leviathan, Hobbes explain that the Jews are the only type of people that will not accept the authority of the state (the leviathan) because they're the only people that consider the rule of god to be above the rule of men. He even points out that the jewish culture basically burried the first atheist culture in history (their neighbor at the time) and use this as a proof of his arguments (which is they will not accept the leviathan's rule, they will not "integrate" in the modern language).
It is exactly the same argument that people are now using for muslim : they consider that the shariah is above our laws, etc.
On October 14 2015 08:24 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 07:48 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:On October 13 2015 05:35 LegalLord wrote:
The historic tendencies of a group of people are not to be ignored. It's easy to try to say that "it's different this time" but history has shown that it really isn't - a group of people who have violent and destructive tendencies will have them again. In that case we should be extra careful of christian and european immigrants I guess. I mean take a look at a globe, white christian immigrants immigrated to 3 continents. Look at those white christian americans for example: didn't adapt to the new culture, instead murdered and marginalized the host culture and give smallpox blankets to your kids. URG! Wouldn't want those white christians as neighbours - worst immigrants ever! :/ Jokes aside, any nation that is not of European/Christian descent would indeed do well to be wary of that group. Probably not for religious reasons, but certainly for imperialistic tendencies (a tendency not shared by all cultures in the world).
Tell me which culture has no imperialistic tendancies ? Just out of curiosity.
|
On October 13 2015 12:20 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +Protesters and police have fought running battles in Kosovo after the arrest of a prominent opposition politician who opened a teargas canister in parliament as he campaigns to overturn a landmark deal with Serbia.
Clouds of teargas filled streets in central Pristina as police drove back several hundred protesters lobbing stones and concrete at the main police station to demand the release of Albin Kurti, a member of parliament and founder of the opposition’s Self-Determination party.
Several vehicles belonging to state authorities were burnt, a Reuters reporter said.
Kurti was later released. His arrest followed an incident in parliament last week in which he opened a teargas canister, forcing the evacuation of MPs, in protest at a European Union-brokered deal to give more local powers to Kosovo’s ethnic Serb minority. Source
Why is this important to the discussion in this thread? Why did you post this?
|
Because its European news. But no one.cares about Kosovo (European Somalia) anyway
|
On October 15 2015 01:25 Velr wrote:
Because its European news. But no one.cares about Kosovo (European Somalia) anyway
We should care, part of the refugees that are coming are in fact coming from kosovo, albania, and not syria like most people seems to believe.
|
On October 14 2015 18:23 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 18:19 Velr wrote:
Uhm... most of the known world at the time was occupied by Romans. So we shouldn't trust Italy... And the muslim moors back then had a pretty open culture (especially compared to most european countries at the time) : when the christians took back spain and portugal, most jews fled with the muslim for obvious reasons. Those long historical arguments are pointless : there is enough in history to depict anyone as a criminal or an angel. Another exemple : in The Leviathan, Hobbes explain that the Jews are the only type of people that will not accept the authority of the state (the leviathan) because they're the only people that consider the rule of god to be above the rule of men. He even points out that the jewish culture basically burried the first atheist culture in history (their neighbor at the time) and use this as a proof of his arguments (which is they will not accept the leviathan's rule, they will not "integrate" in the modern language). It is exactly the same argument that people are now using for muslim : they consider that the shariah is above our laws, etc. Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 08:24 LegalLord wrote:On October 14 2015 07:48 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:On October 13 2015 05:35 LegalLord wrote:
The historic tendencies of a group of people are not to be ignored. It's easy to try to say that "it's different this time" but history has shown that it really isn't - a group of people who have violent and destructive tendencies will have them again. In that case we should be extra careful of christian and european immigrants I guess. I mean take a look at a globe, white christian immigrants immigrated to 3 continents. Look at those white christian americans for example: didn't adapt to the new culture, instead murdered and marginalized the host culture and give smallpox blankets to your kids. URG! Wouldn't want those white christians as neighbours - worst immigrants ever! :/ Jokes aside, any nation that is not of European/Christian descent would indeed do well to be wary of that group. Probably not for religious reasons, but certainly for imperialistic tendencies (a tendency not shared by all cultures in the world). Tell me which culture has no imperialistic tendancies ? Just out of curiosity.
The Amish seem quite peaceful..
|
because there are like 5 Amish people left. Give them three states next to each other and they'll bash their heads in in a month.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
