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On July 27 2015 18:56 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2015 18:53 unsaeglich wrote:Varoufakis "[German finance minister Wolfgang] Schauble believes that the eurozone is not sustainable as it is. He believes there has to be some fiscal transfers, some degree of political union. He believes that for that political union to work without federation, without the legitimacy that a properly elected federal parliament can render, can bestow upon an executive, it will have to be done in a very disciplinary way.
"And he said explicitly to me that a Grexit is going to equip him with sufficient terrorising power in order to impose upon the French that which Paris has been resisting: a degree of transfer of budget-making powers from Paris to Brussels." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11764018/Varoufakis-reveals-cloak-and-dagger-Plan-B-for-Greece-awaits-treason-charges.html Varoufakis has talked so much BS i wouldn't take a single word he says serious. The guy had his 15 minutes of fame and it got in his head.
Varoufakis is simply a useful scapegoat for the failures of the Merkel government. These deep-seated problems existed long before he came along and persist after he has left. In fact it is only these failures that enabled him to become finance minister in the first place.
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Greece has been notorious liars, you still have to work with them. It's almost insulting if people act like Greece is in a bad situation, when a whole generation of Westbalkan (Kosovo, Serbien, Albania, Mazedonia, etc.) youth tries to migrate to Germany.
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On July 27 2015 19:09 unsaeglich wrote:
Greece has been notorious liars, you still have to work with them. It's almost insulting if people act like Greece is in a bad situation, when a whole generation of Westbalkan (Kosovo, Serbien, Albania, Mazedonia, etc.) youth tries to migrate to Germany.
everybody get on the greece bashing train again! :D lets ignore economics!
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Are you denying that greece used faked numbers to join the eu? Then why would you call me bashing, when it has ever since been known they lie to get what they want?`
I would never ignore economics.. and you shouldn't either. Not far from your pretty vienna are the ex jugoslavia countries, have you seen their economic state? urs is the ignorance boy
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^Aside from the fact that this is dragging the conversation back to a topic already talked about ad nauseum, wasn't it at least partly Goldman Sachs' doing?
Aside from which, not every government is the same, so if you're unhappy with the actions of just one government, don't blame all greek governments (let alone the people) for the actions.
You might well be unhappy with all of the governments, but again, criticise each for what they actually did, rather than blaming each of them for all of the wrongdoings.
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sure they faked their numbers, but greece is not the problem. the problem is that germany is taking on a leadership role, but is making everything worse by believing in a wrong economic model, which sadly enough appeals to a lot of people, because it's simplistic
all the talk about greece just keeps everyone from talking about the structural problems of the monetary union, namely the lack of common fiscal policy making, sry for calling you bashing, talk about whatever you like 
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Goldman Sachs was hired for a service. It's not they're fault that they're really good at it. The Greek leaders that hired them and then covered up the debt swaps are the real ones at fault.
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On July 28 2015 02:20 Sermokala wrote:
Goldman Sachs was hired for a service. It's not they're fault that they're really good at it. The Greek leaders that hired them and then covered up the debt swaps are the real ones at fault.
Lol. Really? I mean, sure, the Greek leaders are obviously at fault, but exculpating Goldman Sachs for their part in glossing over all the problems and packaging up Greek debt and parceling it out to other banks (and pension funds) is rather disingenious. There's plenty of blame to go around, and Goldman Sachs fully deserves their part.
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On July 27 2015 23:57 Noizhende wrote:sure they faked their numbers, but greece is not the problem. the problem is that germany is taking on a leadership role, but is making everything worse by believing in a wrong economic model, which sadly enough appeals to a lot of people, because it's simplistic all the talk about greece just keeps everyone from talking about the structural problems of the monetary union, namely the lack of common fiscal policy making, sry for calling you bashing, talk about whatever you like
Nope you got it right the first time, it's the Greek bashing train. This has been the narrative in the mainstream European media and among most top European politicians, and obviously, one picked up by a lot of (northern) Europeans including in this thread who probably haven't studied economics but trust what their politicians and newspapers say: Greeks are irresponsible and lazy, they are to blame for everything that's happened, and now they must pay for it. It's not that Greece hasn't made big mistakes, but it's a simplistic, one-sided narrative that ignores that there's much more to this story, including the structural problems of the EU and the euro and Germany's role in mismanaging economic policy for Europe since the crisis. But of course it's easier to blame everything on Greece and scapegoats like Syriza rather than admit your own mistakes. Unfortunately this narrative has been destroying European unity and is preventing realistic solutions to this crisis.
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On July 28 2015 02:38 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 02:20 Sermokala wrote:
Goldman Sachs was hired for a service. It's not they're fault that they're really good at it. The Greek leaders that hired them and then covered up the debt swaps are the real ones at fault. Lol. Really? I mean, sure, the Greek leaders are obviously at fault, but exculpating Goldman Sachs for their part in glossing over all the problems and packaging up Greek debt and parceling it out to other banks (and pension funds) is rather disingenious. There's plenty of blame to go around, and Goldman Sachs fully deserves their part.
Goldman Sachs would be, like #400543051230. Every single entity that bought Greek bonds once they were over 100% of GDP outstanding debt is ahead of Goldman. Every single Greek politician that voted for the taxing and spending system they have, every Greek voter who voted for those politicians (and also knew what their positions were), and the Troika for ever bailing them out to begin with would all be ahead of Goldman.
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On July 27 2015 21:44 unsaeglich wrote:
Are you denying that greece used faked numbers to join the eu? Then why would you call me bashing, when it has ever since been known they lie to get what they want?`
I would never ignore economics.. and you shouldn't either. Not far from your pretty vienna are the ex jugoslavia countries, have you seen their economic state? urs is the ignorance boy
Even Germany used fake numbers...
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Well there are "polished" numbers and WTFHOWCOULDNOONESEETHIS Fake numbers  .
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On July 28 2015 05:34 Velr wrote:Well there are "polished" numbers and WTFHOWCOULDNOONESEETHIS Fake numbers .
Greece basically mimicked what Italy did to get in the euro.
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People really overrate the clumsy attempts of governments at controlling the economy. For many of their economic policies governments cannot possibly foresee the effects, because the policies can result in vastly different outcomes based on a myriad of factors not under government control.
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On July 28 2015 05:34 Velr wrote:Well there are "polished" numbers and WTFHOWCOULDNOONESEETHIS Fake numbers .
From recent interviews you now know for sure at least France and Germany knew the trick but pushed hard to have Greece into the union anyway. There's no how could none see this, everyone saw.
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On July 28 2015 15:09 InVerno wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 05:34 Velr wrote:Well there are "polished" numbers and WTFHOWCOULDNOONESEETHIS Fake numbers . From recent interviews you now know for sure at least France and Germany knew the trick but pushed hard to have Greece into the union anyway. There's no how could none see this, everyone saw.
All the numbers were fudged regarding the euro. Economists warned back in the 90's that the flawed design of the euro would lead to economic crises but as usual economic facts were ignored by European leaders in favour of politics. Milton Friedman in 1997: "Europe’s common market exemplifies a situation that is unfavorable to a common currency. It is composed of separate nations, whose residents speak different languages, have different customs and have far greater loyalty and attachment to their own country than to the common market or to the idea of ‘Europe.’ ”
Mr. Friedman concluded that the adoption of the euro “would exacerbate political tensions by converting divergent shocks that could have been readily accommodated by exchange rate changes into divisive political issues.”
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On July 28 2015 14:49 Maenander wrote:
People really overrate the clumsy attempts of governments at controlling the economy. For many of their economic policies governments cannot possibly foresee the effects, because the policies can result in vastly different outcomes based on a myriad of factors not under government control.
Untrue, there's more than a hundred years of knowledge on the subject. Economy is not magic. There is a component that is impossible to reproduce in every economic context, but we know at large what is grossly the effect of a policy on the economy.
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On July 28 2015 20:39 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 14:49 Maenander wrote:
People really overrate the clumsy attempts of governments at controlling the economy. For many of their economic policies governments cannot possibly foresee the effects, because the policies can result in vastly different outcomes based on a myriad of factors not under government control. Untrue, there's more than a hundred years of knowledge on the subject. Economy is not magic. There is a component that is impossible to reproduce in every economic context, but we know at large what is grossly the effect of a policy on the economy.
Well, if that's true, then why is Europe is an economic recession?
Also, could the subprime crisis have been avoided?
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On July 29 2015 03:53 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 20:39 WhiteDog wrote:On July 28 2015 14:49 Maenander wrote:
People really overrate the clumsy attempts of governments at controlling the economy. For many of their economic policies governments cannot possibly foresee the effects, because the policies can result in vastly different outcomes based on a myriad of factors not under government control. Untrue, there's more than a hundred years of knowledge on the subject. Economy is not magic. There is a component that is impossible to reproduce in every economic context, but we know at large what is grossly the effect of a policy on the economy. Well, if that's true, then why is Europe is an economic recession?
Because European policymakers did not follow the correct economic policy. Both Europe and the US suffered a similar problem: a debt and banking crisis. The US response was broadly Keynesian and counter-cyclical: they ran deficits, increased spending, and the US Federal Reserve pursued a very loose monetary policy including extremely low interest rates, "printing" money, and a firm commitment to maintaining a 2% inflation target. The European response, on the other hand, largely dictated by Germany, was broadly austerity and pro-cyclical. Spending was reduced, monetary policy by the ECB was much tighter, and an imaginary fear of inflation led the ECB to even raise interest rates in the middle of a recession, which has left Europe bordering on deflation even 8 years after the crisis which has made it much harder to recover. Europe (read: Germany) has made the same mistakes as in the Great Depression and generated the same results.
The result 8 years later, is the US economy is almost fully recovered, unemployment and GDP growth have returned to pre-crisis levels, the dollar is strong, and they will soon raise interest rates. In the EU outside Germany, the opposite is the case. If Germany had followed America's path and employed Keynesian economics, this crisis would also be almost over by now in Europe. Instead there's no end in sight. It only takes one graph to illustrate how Germany's economic policy for Europe has failed:
Europe is also deeply constrained and suffocated by the euro. It's clear to any economist even German ones that having Germany and Greece on the same currency is a mistake and is impossible to sustain with the current political and economic framework. One monetary policy and one currency is not enough to accommodate the divergent and desynchronized needs of all the eurozone countries, especially when the policies and currency are controlled by one country that puts its own interests first.
To sum it up: economics does work, it just has to be understood and correctly implemented.
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On July 29 2015 05:23 Evil_Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2015 03:53 Incognoto wrote:On July 28 2015 20:39 WhiteDog wrote:On July 28 2015 14:49 Maenander wrote:
People really overrate the clumsy attempts of governments at controlling the economy. For many of their economic policies governments cannot possibly foresee the effects, because the policies can result in vastly different outcomes based on a myriad of factors not under government control. Untrue, there's more than a hundred years of knowledge on the subject. Economy is not magic. There is a component that is impossible to reproduce in every economic context, but we know at large what is grossly the effect of a policy on the economy. Well, if that's true, then why is Europe is an economic recession? Because European policymakers did not follow the correct economic policy. Both Europe and the US suffered a similar problem: a debt and banking crisis. The US response was broadly Keynesian and counter-cyclical: they ran deficits, increased spending, and the US Federal Reserve pursued a very loose monetary policy including extremely low interest rates, "printing" money, and a firm commitment to maintaining a 2% inflation target. The European response, on the other hand, largely dictated by Germany, was broadly austerity and pro-cyclical. Spending was reduced, monetary policy by the ECB was much tighter, and an imaginary fear of inflation led the ECB to even raise interest rates in the middle of a recession, which has left Europe bordering on deflation even 8 years after the crisis which has made it much harder to recover. Europe (read: Germany) has made the same mistakes as in the Great Depression and generated the same results. The result 8 years later, is the US economy is almost fully recovered, unemployment and GDP growth have returned to pre-crisis levels, the dollar is strong, and they will soon raise interest rates. In the EU outside Germany, the opposite is the case. If Germany had followed America's path and employed Keynesian economics, this crisis would also be almost over by now in Europe. Instead there's no end in sight. It only takes one graph to illustrate how Germany's economic policy for Europe has failed: Europe is also deeply constrained and suffocated by the euro. It's clear to any economist even German ones that having Germany and Greece on the same currency is a mistake and is impossible to sustain with the current political and economic framework. One monetary policy and one currency is not enough to accommodate the divergent and desynchronized needs of all the eurozone countries, especially when the policies and currency are controlled by one country that puts its own interests first. To sum it up: economics does work, it just has to be understood and correctly implemented.
Your US' success story conveniently fails to mention that it is mainly shareholders and capital owners in general who have benefited from the recovery. Worker wages have stagnated or even decreased, and inequality is at record levels.
A recovery that only a very small part of the country benefits from is hardly worth the name.
There is no such thing as a singular economic theory. One of the main flaws of the science is that it continually tries to come up with general theories of how everything works without regard for political structure or level of political development of a country or region. So far I've seen economists like Krugman and Stiglitz rail against anyone who did not want to throw more money into a Greek sinkhole, or rather who did not want to invest in Greece. My questions for them are "Invest in what?" and "Why would you invest in a country whose population by and large regards its state as something to extract rents from, and that has a public sector that benefits from being as opaque as possible?" I'm far from a fan of austerity, but I'm quite sure that one of the requirements for Keynsian economics to work is having an effective state staffed with meritocratic public servants, and that can actually implement policy effectively. Greece is a country in which they don't even know who owns which land, and which up until 2010 did not even have a clue how many people were on the public service payroll.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Blogs/Ben-Bernanke/2015/Euro_Fig1.PNG?h=411&&w=600&la=en)
