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On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world.
Errr. The graph is a terrible infographic, regardless of the message. Sushiman is completely correct. The left graph has a max percentage of 70, and the right graph of 80. The lines are roughly at the same height, and a straightforward interpretation would thus be that they are at the same percentage. This would be a false conclusion.
It is absolutely a bad (deceiving) infographic.
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On July 18 2015 23:17 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world. Errr. The graph is a terrible infographic, regardless of the message. Sushiman is completely correct. The left graph has a max percentage of 70, and the right graph of 80. The lines are roughly at the same height, and a straightforward interpretation would thus be that they are at the same percentage. This would be a false conclusion. It is absolutely a bad (deceiving) infographic.
Ho, so you need to read what's written so it's a bad graph ?
A simple read makes you understand that, since the left is at max 70 and the right at max 80, it means that overall people are (were) happier about the democratic process in their country (the right) than in europe (the left).
On July 18 2015 23:16 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world. if you do compare left with right though, you'll see that people in southern europe are happier about the democratic process in the EU than they are about the democratic process in their own countries.So long story short, people in the south don't like the state of democracy right now no matter if we're talking about being represented by the EU or their own state
Funny interpretation. Why not ? Better blinding yourself than accepting reality (which is that in 2007 - and then 2009 for Europe - (exactly since the crisis) people are overall way less happy with their democracy - and that has a lot to do with the way both nations (in 2007) and the europe (in 2009) faced the crisis).
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On July 18 2015 23:21 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 23:17 Acrofales wrote:On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world. Errr. The graph is a terrible infographic, regardless of the message. Sushiman is completely correct. The left graph has a max percentage of 70, and the right graph of 80. The lines are roughly at the same height, and a straightforward interpretation would thus be that they are at the same percentage. This would be a false conclusion. It is absolutely a bad (deceiving) infographic. Ho, so you need to read what's written so it's a bad graph ? A simple read makes you understand that, since the left is at max 70 and the right at max 80, it means that overall people are (were) happier about the democratic process in their country (the right) than in europe (the left). Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 23:16 Toadesstern wrote:On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world. if you do compare left with right though, you'll see that people in southern europe are happier about the democratic process in the EU than they are about the democratic process in their own countries.So long story short, people in the south don't like the state of democracy right now no matter if we're talking about being represented by the EU or their own state Funny interpretation. Why not ? Better blinding yourself than accepting reality (which is that in 2007 - and then 2009 for Europe - (exactly since the crisis) people are overall way less happy with their democracy - and that has a lot to do with the way both nations (in 2007) and the europe (in 2009) faced the crisis).
bottom part: true, but like mentioned you fell victim of the stupid axis. It makes it look that way while the satisfaction for the EU dropped less than the satisfaction for their own nation. It's on about 30% for EU in southern europe while only being at around 25% for your own nation from what I can see in the end.
And it's fairly easy to see that the fall the right took was way heavier than the fall on the left overall.
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On July 18 2015 23:21 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 23:17 Acrofales wrote:On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world. Errr. The graph is a terrible infographic, regardless of the message. Sushiman is completely correct. The left graph has a max percentage of 70, and the right graph of 80. The lines are roughly at the same height, and a straightforward interpretation would thus be that they are at the same percentage. This would be a false conclusion. It is absolutely a bad (deceiving) infographic. Ho, so you need to read what's written so it's a bad graph ? A simple read makes you understand that, since the left is at max 70 and the right at max 80, it means that overall people are happier about the democratic process in their country (the right) than in europe (the left).
Yes, it's a bad graph because of it. A graph is a visual representation, and doing it as a comparison where you have to notice the small number on the side on the side when everything else is essentially the same means it's easy to misinterpret. It's not unusual to do this intentionally to fool people that glance quickly at a graph; if it wants to be truthful it should show the same % on both sides.
It also doesn't explain which country belongs to north, south or center either.
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On July 18 2015 23:27 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 23:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 23:17 Acrofales wrote:On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world. Errr. The graph is a terrible infographic, regardless of the message. Sushiman is completely correct. The left graph has a max percentage of 70, and the right graph of 80. The lines are roughly at the same height, and a straightforward interpretation would thus be that they are at the same percentage. This would be a false conclusion. It is absolutely a bad (deceiving) infographic. Ho, so you need to read what's written so it's a bad graph ? A simple read makes you understand that, since the left is at max 70 and the right at max 80, it means that overall people are (were) happier about the democratic process in their country (the right) than in europe (the left). On July 18 2015 23:16 Toadesstern wrote:On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world. if you do compare left with right though, you'll see that people in southern europe are happier about the democratic process in the EU than they are about the democratic process in their own countries.So long story short, people in the south don't like the state of democracy right now no matter if we're talking about being represented by the EU or their own state Funny interpretation. Why not ? Better blinding yourself than accepting reality (which is that in 2007 - and then 2009 for Europe - (exactly since the crisis) people are overall way less happy with their democracy - and that has a lot to do with the way both nations (in 2007) and the europe (in 2009) faced the crisis). bottom part: true, but like mentioned you fell victim of the stupid axis. It makes it look that way while the satisfaction for the EU dropped less than the satisfaction for their own nation. It's on about 30% for EU in southern europe while only being at around 25% for your own nation from what I can see in the end.And it's fairly easy to see that the fall the right took was way heavier than the fall on the left overall.
It's normal ? Don't you see that there was a latency : the fall started in 2007 for national government, and 2009 for europe. Which means people first resented their own government for their way of reacting to the crisis, then understand that it was an european problem - when the exogene crisis from the US (2007) became the european crisis of the euro (2009 with Greece). How does that fact contredict the idea that there is clearly a difference between north and south - the north "happy" (meaning their elected representative are doing what they want) and the south "unhappy" (their elected representative are not doing what they want... since they do what the north want ?).
On July 18 2015 23:28 sushiman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 23:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 23:17 Acrofales wrote:On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world. Errr. The graph is a terrible infographic, regardless of the message. Sushiman is completely correct. The left graph has a max percentage of 70, and the right graph of 80. The lines are roughly at the same height, and a straightforward interpretation would thus be that they are at the same percentage. This would be a false conclusion. It is absolutely a bad (deceiving) infographic. Ho, so you need to read what's written so it's a bad graph ? A simple read makes you understand that, since the left is at max 70 and the right at max 80, it means that overall people are happier about the democratic process in their country (the right) than in europe (the left). Yes, it's a bad graph because of it. A graph is a visual representation, and doing it as a comparison where you have to notice the small number on the side on the side when everything else is essentially the same means it's easy to misinterpret. It's not unusual to do this intentionally to fool people that glance quickly at a graph; if it wants to be truthful it should show the same % on both sides. It also doesn't explain which country belongs to north, south or center either.
A bad graph in the sense that it's not perfect ? Sure. But it does not convey a wrong idea, and should not be discarded just because it is not perfect - the data are solid and not misrepresented.
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On July 18 2015 23:30 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 23:27 Toadesstern wrote:On July 18 2015 23:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 23:17 Acrofales wrote:On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world. Errr. The graph is a terrible infographic, regardless of the message. Sushiman is completely correct. The left graph has a max percentage of 70, and the right graph of 80. The lines are roughly at the same height, and a straightforward interpretation would thus be that they are at the same percentage. This would be a false conclusion. It is absolutely a bad (deceiving) infographic. Ho, so you need to read what's written so it's a bad graph ? A simple read makes you understand that, since the left is at max 70 and the right at max 80, it means that overall people are (were) happier about the democratic process in their country (the right) than in europe (the left). On July 18 2015 23:16 Toadesstern wrote:On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world. if you do compare left with right though, you'll see that people in southern europe are happier about the democratic process in the EU than they are about the democratic process in their own countries.So long story short, people in the south don't like the state of democracy right now no matter if we're talking about being represented by the EU or their own state Funny interpretation. Why not ? Better blinding yourself than accepting reality (which is that in 2007 - and then 2009 for Europe - (exactly since the crisis) people are overall way less happy with their democracy - and that has a lot to do with the way both nations (in 2007) and the europe (in 2009) faced the crisis). bottom part: true, but like mentioned you fell victim of the stupid axis. It makes it look that way while the satisfaction for the EU dropped less than the satisfaction for their own nation. It's on about 30% for EU in southern europe while only being at around 25% for your own nation from what I can see in the end. And it's fairly easy to see that the fall the right took was way heavier than the fall on the left overall. It's normal ? Don't you see that there was a latency : the fall started in 2007 for national government, and 2009 for europe. Which means people first resented their own government for their way of reacting to the crisis, then understand that it was an european problem - when the exogene crisis from the US (2007) became the european crisis of the euro (2009 with Greece). How does that fact contredict the idea that there is clearly a difference between north and south - the north "happy" (meaning their elected representative are doing what they want) and the south "unhappy" (their elected representative are not doing what they want... since they do what the north want ?).
I'm not trying to say that the bottom part is wrong at all. I would argue that being part of the crisis where it hurts the most will just naturally drop ratings in general instead but that's beside the point I was trying to make:
The graph can be looked at in lots of different ways. More than just that one you pointed out. And it's not making that particularly easy.
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On July 18 2015 23:35 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 23:30 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 23:27 Toadesstern wrote:On July 18 2015 23:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 23:17 Acrofales wrote:On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world. Errr. The graph is a terrible infographic, regardless of the message. Sushiman is completely correct. The left graph has a max percentage of 70, and the right graph of 80. The lines are roughly at the same height, and a straightforward interpretation would thus be that they are at the same percentage. This would be a false conclusion. It is absolutely a bad (deceiving) infographic. Ho, so you need to read what's written so it's a bad graph ? A simple read makes you understand that, since the left is at max 70 and the right at max 80, it means that overall people are (were) happier about the democratic process in their country (the right) than in europe (the left). On July 18 2015 23:16 Toadesstern wrote:On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world. if you do compare left with right though, you'll see that people in southern europe are happier about the democratic process in the EU than they are about the democratic process in their own countries.So long story short, people in the south don't like the state of democracy right now no matter if we're talking about being represented by the EU or their own state Funny interpretation. Why not ? Better blinding yourself than accepting reality (which is that in 2007 - and then 2009 for Europe - (exactly since the crisis) people are overall way less happy with their democracy - and that has a lot to do with the way both nations (in 2007) and the europe (in 2009) faced the crisis). bottom part: true, but like mentioned you fell victim of the stupid axis. It makes it look that way while the satisfaction for the EU dropped less than the satisfaction for their own nation. It's on about 30% for EU in southern europe while only being at around 25% for your own nation from what I can see in the end. And it's fairly easy to see that the fall the right took was way heavier than the fall on the left overall. It's normal ? Don't you see that there was a latency : the fall started in 2007 for national government, and 2009 for europe. Which means people first resented their own government for their way of reacting to the crisis, then understand that it was an european problem - when the exogene crisis from the US (2007) became the european crisis of the euro (2009 with Greece). How does that fact contredict the idea that there is clearly a difference between north and south - the north "happy" (meaning their elected representative are doing what they want) and the south "unhappy" (their elected representative are not doing what they want... since they do what the north want ?). I'm not trying to say that the bottom part is wrong at all. I would argue that being part of the crisis where it hurts the most will just naturally drop ratings in general instead but that's beside the point I was trying to make: The graph can be looked at in lots of different ways. More than just that one you pointed out.
It's a classical error to try to analyse the data of a graph, what need analysis are the trend : stable in the north (or increasing a little) and down for the rest, at a higher pace in the south than in the "middle". It's the only interesting thing that needs to be taken out from this graph.
If not, what does 25 % satisfaction for french democracy means ? In itself it's a data without value.
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So the 'north' still has trust in democracy while the 'south' lost it in Eu and particularly at home.
What has all that do to with 'German domination' again?
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On July 18 2015 23:30 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 23:28 sushiman wrote:On July 18 2015 23:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 23:17 Acrofales wrote:On July 18 2015 23:05 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 22:49 sushiman wrote:
That's just an all around terrible graph. No source, spelling mistakes, no explanation about what constitutes a specific segment, different percentages in the left column skewing the comparison... Untrue (you don't need to compare the two, but rather the different zone anyway). Seems like you are discrediting this graph just because it doesn't go well with your vision of the world. Errr. The graph is a terrible infographic, regardless of the message. Sushiman is completely correct. The left graph has a max percentage of 70, and the right graph of 80. The lines are roughly at the same height, and a straightforward interpretation would thus be that they are at the same percentage. This would be a false conclusion. It is absolutely a bad (deceiving) infographic. Ho, so you need to read what's written so it's a bad graph ? A simple read makes you understand that, since the left is at max 70 and the right at max 80, it means that overall people are happier about the democratic process in their country (the right) than in europe (the left). Yes, it's a bad graph because of it. A graph is a visual representation, and doing it as a comparison where you have to notice the small number on the side on the side when everything else is essentially the same means it's easy to misinterpret. It's not unusual to do this intentionally to fool people that glance quickly at a graph; if it wants to be truthful it should show the same % on both sides. It also doesn't explain which country belongs to north, south or center either. A bad graph in the sense that it's not perfect ? Sure. But it does not convey a wrong idea, and should not be discarded just because it is not perfect - the data are solid and not misrepresented.
It visually pushes satisfaction with the EU up while pushing it down for national, it's unsourced, has no explanation for which country is part of which segment and hasn't gone through spell-check. Please explain how it could be considered good.
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On July 18 2015 23:38 lord_nibbler wrote:
So the 'north' still has trust in democracy while the 'south' lost it in Eu and particularly at home.
What has all that do to with 'German domination' again?
Same error : analysis a graph everything equal. We're talking about trends. What the graph says is that in 2007 and in 2009 "things" happened that changed the trust people had in their democracies for the south, and not for the north.
Most likely the "things" that happened favored the north on the south.
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If they're not supposed to be compared, the graphs probably would not be next to each other but underneath each other. So there's really no reason to use a different scale on them when you're supposed to compare them.
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On July 18 2015 23:41 Toadesstern wrote:
If they're not supposed to be compared, the graphs probably would not be next to each other but underneath each other. So there's really no reason to use a different scale on them when you're supposed to compare them.
You can compare the trend even if the scale are different. Let me give you an exemple, you take GDP growth in china in one graph and GDP growth in France in another, with scale at -10; -5; 0; 5; 10 % for China, and -2; -1; 0; 1; 2; % for France. Now if the graph of those two countries DROP at 2007, it means something about 2007 (that touched those two countries), even if the scale are hugely different. Or it's just random, but we know it's not.
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On July 18 2015 23:43 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 23:41 Toadesstern wrote:
If they're not supposed to be compared, the graphs probably would not be next to each other but underneath each other. So there's really no reason to use a different scale on them when you're supposed to compare them. You can compare the trend even if the scale are different. Let me give you an exemple, you take GDP growth in china in one graph and GDP growth in France in another, with scale at -10; -5; 0; 5; 10 % for China, and -2; -1; 0; 1; 2; % for France. Now if the graph of those two countries DROP at 2007, it means something about 2007 (that touched those two countries), even if the scale are hugely different. Or it's just random, but we know it's not.
but satisfaction with EU democracy dropped in all 3 regions. It just dropped the least in the northern ones, central europa is in the middle while southern europe dropped the most.
Hence my idea that the people that took the harderst fall obviously end up being the most unhappy as a result of that.
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People suffering from economic problems are less happy the more problems they are having
more news at 11.
Seriously, without context and more information these graphs are meaningless.
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On July 18 2015 23:57 Gorsameth wrote:
People suffering from economic problems are less happy the more problems they are having
more news at 11.
Seriously, without context and more information these graphs are meaningless.
thanks for putting what I was trying to get at into simple words 
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On July 18 2015 23:40 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 23:38 lord_nibbler wrote:
So the 'north' still has trust in democracy while the 'south' lost it in EU and particularly at home.
What has all that do to with 'German domination' again? Same error : analysis a graph everything equal. We're talking about trends. What the graph says is that in 2007 and in 2009 "things" happened that changed the trust people had in their democracies for the south, and not for the north. Most likely the "things" that happened favored the north on the south. What error?
I gave the most basic information about these graphs and point out that they have nothing to do with 'Germany' or 'domination'. Where the fuck is my 'error' supposed to be?
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On July 19 2015 00:01 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 23:40 WhiteDog wrote:On July 18 2015 23:38 lord_nibbler wrote:
So the 'north' still has trust in democracy while the 'south' lost it in EU and particularly at home.
What has all that do to with 'German domination' again? Same error : analysis a graph everything equal. We're talking about trends. What the graph says is that in 2007 and in 2009 "things" happened that changed the trust people had in their democracies for the south, and not for the north. Most likely the "things" that happened favored the north on the south. What error? I gave the most basic information about these graphs and point out that they have nothing to do with 'Germany' or 'domination'. Where the fuck is my 'error' supposed to be?
he's arguing that the fact that the countries that are supposedly dominated by germany and end up being less happy about their democracy shows that Germany has taken them over when really it could just be that they're less happy because they're suffering economical problems, which would be supported by the fact that northern happyness with democracy dropped as well.
Nothern region dropping because of german/northern domination on politics makes no sense when the idea is that northern region has pushed their ideology onto others. Or rather that can't be the sole reason even if they might have done that, or else the rating should have gone up. Instead it went down as well, less than the south but it went down (except for the last tick that saw an uptrend for both northern region and southern region in both EU satisfaction as well as national satisfaction), because we're in a crisis as well. It just didn't hit us as hard.
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he's arguing that the fact that the countries that are supposedly dominated by germany and end up being less happy about their democracy shows that Germany has taken them over when really it could just be that they're less happy
Untrue ? Nobody could argue that from a graph. I'm arguing the decisions national government and european government made since 2007 and 2009 were in accordance with the north desire and in opposition with the south desire - as reflected in the graphs.
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Here is the source of said graphs.
Following part is pretty interesting: Note: groups are constructed as averages weighted by population. North=AT; BE; DE; Fi; NL; Centre=FR; IT; South=ES; GR; IE; PT meaning that Ireland (IE) is part of "south" (lol) and the lines for "north" are skewed since Germany's population is relatively big compared to the others in the same group.
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On July 19 2015 00:20 WhiteDog wrote:
Nobody could argue that from a graph. I'm arguing the decisions national government and european government made since 2007 and 2009 were in accordance with the north desire and in opposition with the south desire - as reflected in the graphs. But even that is a stretch form your side! The poll did not ask about desires but about the satisfaction with democracy at home and abroad. Therefore people commented only on their feeling on democracy, the rest is your personal addition.
They 'say' they did not like the decision making in politics because it was seen as less democratic than before. They say nothing about the decisions themselves or Germany or domination for that matter...
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EPT
