EPTOn July 14 2015 22:23 maartendq wrote:
You mean like the European Parliamentary elections?
You mean like the European Parliamentary elections?
They are a theater, not a political institution.
Also, there is not one citizen one vote even for the EP.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 204
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
They are a theater, not a political institution. Also, there is not one citizen one vote even for the EP. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18291 Posts
On July 14 2015 22:14 mahrgell wrote: According to Italys FinMin Padoan, only 3 nations (Italy, France, Cyprus) had argued for less strict deal then the final deal, while the remaining 15 nations supported the course, that all the critics describe as only Germanys position. Looks like it wasn't Germany vs all, even if some people love to reduce it to that. But instead a great majority for the strict deal. And personally, I would have actually thought that the deal proposed by Greece this weekend was sufficient (and the first reasonable offer from Greece in half a year...) and felt that Schäuble overdid it. But I'm really growing tired of that blind Antigerman nonsense, pretending everytime that Germany would be all alone fighting against entire Europe... When in reality there were a couple of nations with much more extreme opinions on the Greece question. And when the German course was indeed backed by the majority of nations/governments. And that course was far more Greek friendly than what most European populations wanted. Given a choice between the German line and Greek line, of course most countries are going to side with Germany. However, it was still a largely German-invented plan. That other countries either agreed (Netherlands, for instance), clamoured for even stricter measures (Finland, probably) or silently agreed, doesn't mean that they didn't just fall in line behind the German plan. However, I also agree that it is stupid and counterproductive for Greek media to paint Germany as the bad guy. It is just much much easier to blame some external factor than their own failed politicians. If I were a Greek who voted no just a week before, I would be out protesting in the street that my PM turned around and signed a WORSE deal than the one I had just voted to reject. It makes a complete mockery of the local democratic process. While that is mainly on Tsipras for putting forth a choice that was both unclear and impossible for him to hold to, this outcome is clearly not what the "no" voters envisioned. Why isn't Athens pretty much on fire, demanding his head? | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
On July 14 2015 22:27 Acrofales wrote: Why isn't Athens pretty much on fire, demanding his head? Because he didn't obviously fail to get a better deal that was possible and in the cards. The Greeks aren't as stupid as some people make them out to be. By voting 'no' they voted for Tsipras to take a risk. If it was obvious that a 'no' vote would obviously get the better deal, it wasn't even worth having a referendum. So all these Greeks voting 'no' knew that a possibility of their vote was that they would have to accept a worse one later, or leave the Euro. In fact, this is what the Eurzone technocrats campaigned on. They gave Tsipras a mandate to gamble on the possibility to get a better idea. This failed. To now blame Tsipras for that, when they themselves gave him this exact mandate, would be pure hypocrisy. Now, it is all about if Tsipras is a bad negotiator that failed to get a better deal, that was in the cards. Apparently the Greeks decide there wasn't. | ||
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InVerno
258 Posts
On July 14 2015 22:14 mahrgell wrote: According to Italys FinMin Padoan, only 3 nations (Italy, France, Cyprus) had argued for less strict deal then the final deal, while the remaining 15 nations supported the course, that all the critics describe as only Germanys position. Looks like it wasn't Germany vs all, even if some people love to reduce it to that. But instead a great majority for the strict deal. And personally, I would have actually thought that the deal proposed by Greece this weekend was sufficient (and the first reasonable offer from Greece in half a year...) and felt that Schäuble overdid it. But I'm really growing tired of that blind Antigerman nonsense, pretending everytime that Germany would be all alone fighting against entire Europe... When in reality there were a couple of nations with much more extreme opinions on the Greece question. And when the German course was indeed backed by the majority of nations/governments. And that course was far more Greek friendly than what most European populations wanted. Is the main anti-german argument representing a "Germany vs all" situation? I thought was the opposite, I mean the complete submission of the others leaders to German whishes and how Germany reached maintained and used this leading position. For sympathy to you anyway i'll quote a prime minister from the past "We love Germany so much that we would prefer to have two of them" . | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On July 14 2015 22:49 InVerno wrote: Is the main anti-german argument representing a "Germany vs all" situation? I thought was the opposite, I mean the complete submission of the others leaders to German whishes and how Germany reached maintained and used this leading position. For sympathy to you anyway i'll quote a prime minister from the past "We love Germany so much that we would prefer to have two of them" . Why is everyone that has a the same opinion as Germany submitting to Germanys wishes? Maybe they really have the same opinion? And it is pretty common, that in a pool of opinions, every fish is looking for other fish swimming in a similar direction and may adjust their course slightly to build a swarm. That's why countries like Finland or Austria, which were proposing a even more drastic line joined in on the German course, as their own opinion obviously lacked support. And even the German course obviously got adjusted slightly, because the original paper by Schäuble was not really able to get any majority behind it. (And I'm not unhappy about that) But looking in the thread here, and in some of the media (cited here and read elsewhere) it is always painted as if Germany is just saying what is to be done, and against their own will, everyone has to agree to it.  Simply not true. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10884 Posts
If we are at it, lets cut Italiy into North and South and let the Basques and Catalans have their Independence... I'm sure even more not equally productive/rich countries will solve this.. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On July 14 2015 23:15 Velr wrote: Yeah, lets rebuild the Wall... Then you got one superstrong WGermany and one poor EGermany again. If we are at it, lets cut Italiy into North and South and let the Basques and Catalans have their Independence... I'm sure even more not equally productive/rich countries will solve this.. You remember why Germany was cut in half right ? | ||
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10884 Posts
Btw: I was responding to this "We love Germany so much that we would prefer to have two of them". Whiteout that context my post indeed does look strange  . | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1151 Posts
Greece was not qualified to join EuroGroup in the first place, their officials forged numbers to meet euro standards. It was discovered, but nothing happend. In the Eurogroup an agreement was made that no country accumulates more than 60% GDP in debt. Greece is now at 177% and unable to pay any credit rates by themselves. The greece population spent 110% of all earnings over the last years, for other countries its about 90-95%. The eurogroup overstretched all rules to even send the first two batches of money via the ESM since 2010. EuroGroup has a simple rule that said "No Bail Out". No Country should ever pay the debts of another. This rule was clearly broken. While other countries, such as Spain, portugal, ireland actually started to reduce spending, greece did not. With MP Tsipras in charge they spent all the money they had, leading to the last IMF rate of 1.6 Billion € still being unpaid. This rate was even stretched from jan to july, Tsipras was 100% sure it would be paid..well, it wasn't and until 2020 it won't be. Parallel to the ESM-fund Greece receiveed ELA-Payments by the ECB. ELA should help "solvent Banks" with a temporary liquidity problem....but most of greek banks are actually not private. And even better..most of their " capital "are Greek government Bonds, rated BB--. But ECB ignored it. Money was pumped without limitations. And for Greece: - 8/10 people working for the Government are corrupt. It is completely normal to pay 100-1000 € cash if you want anything done ("fakelaki"). For example, if you took the test for a drivers license in Athens, you have to bribe the official person with at least 300€ to pass, or you simply fail and have to go again, while the test itself costs 90-100€ too, with training DL costs about 1500€ - All People can receive pensions from the greek government. It does not matter if they ever paid into a fund. Also the average pension in greece is 1000€, while it is 800€ for Germany, while in germany every employee has to pay "Rentenversicherung" to earn the right to receive pensions, at age 67. If you not pay it, you get "Grundsicherung" of 340€. - There are no taxes on "land", the greek administration does not even know which person owns wich piece of land. - At least 60% of all economics in greece do not involve paying taxes...at all. From buying food to building a house, a good greek thinks that paying any tax is just plain robbery. - Besides that,greece does only collect 13% of all possible taxes. But there are strong, corrupt forces in greek administration that do not want to change a thing. The current "Deal" just includes modern standards, it's bad for corrupt and lazy people. Its bad for Tax-evasion and bad for the Status Quo in greece. The EU spent 600 Billion euros for Greece, that 60.000 € Per Greek ! But they did not change a thing. Now that they are forced to do somthing, germany gets the BadGuy Role. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On July 14 2015 23:06 mahrgell wrote: Why is everyone that has a the same opinion as Germany submitting to Germanys wishes? Maybe they really have the same opinion? And it is pretty common, that in a pool of opinions, every fish is looking for other fish swimming in a similar direction and may adjust their course slightly to build a swarm. That's why countries like Finland or Austria, which were proposing a even more drastic line joined in on the German course, as their own opinion obviously lacked support. And even the German course obviously got adjusted slightly, because the original paper by Schäuble was not really able to get any majority behind it. (And I'm not unhappy about that) But looking in the thread here, and in some of the media (cited here and read elsewhere) it is always painted as if Germany is just saying what is to be done, and against their own will, everyone has to agree to it. Simply not true.Over here the media likes to paint an annoyingly black-and-white picture, depending on the journalists' prefered ideologies: to the left Greece is the underdog fighting the big bad German imperialists, neoliberal colonists, slave masters etc etc while on the right Greece is a country filled with profligate lazy bums who refuse to pay their taxes and who had it coming. This is not just gutter press anymore either. Quality newspapers are in on the trend as well. Then again, nuances reporting barely sells anymore nowadays. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On July 14 2015 23:25 KT_Elwood wrote: I think most americans get an incomplete picture of the whole deal over greece. Greece was not qualified to join EuroGroup in the first place, their officials forged numbers to meet euro standards. It was discovered, but nothing happend. In the Eurogroup an agreement was made that no country accumulates more than 60% GDP in debt. Greece is now at 177% and unable to pay any credit rates by themselves. The greece population spent 110% of all earnings over the last years, for other countries its about 90-95%. The eurogroup overstretched all rules to even send the first two batches of money via the ESM since 2010. EuroGroup has a simple rule that said "No Bail Out". No Country should ever pay the debts of another. This rule was clearly broken. While other countries, such as Spain, portugal, ireland actually started to reduce spending, greece did not. With MP Tsipras in charge they spent all the money they had, leading to the last IMF rate of 1.6 Billion € still being unpaid. This rate was even stretched from jan to july, Tsipras was 100% sure it would be paid..well, it wasn't and until 2020 it won't be. Parallel to the ESM-fund Greece receiveed ELA-Payments by the ECB. ELA should help "solvent Banks" with a temporary liquidity problem....but most of greek banks are actually not private. And even better..most of their " capital "are Greek government Bonds, rated BB--. But ECB ignored it. Money was pumped without limitations. And for Greece: - 8/10 people working for the Government are corrupt. It is completely normal to pay 100-1000 € cash if you want anything done ("fakelaki"). For example, if you took the test for a drivers license in Athens, you have to bribe the official person with at least 300€ to pass, or you simply fail and have to go again, while the test itself costs 90-100€ too, with training DL costs about 1500€ - All People can receive pensions from the greek government. It does not matter if they ever paid into a fund. Also the average pension in greece is 1000€, while it is 800€ for Germany, while in germany every employee has to pay "Rentenversicherung" to earn the right to receive pensions, at age 67. If you not pay it, you get "Grundsicherung" of 340€. - There are no taxes on "land", the greek administration does not even know which person owns wich piece of land. - At least 60% of all economics in greece do not involve paying taxes...at all. From buying food to building a house, a good greek thinks that paying any tax is just plain robbery. - Besides that,greece does only collect 13% of all possible taxes. But there are strong, corrupt forces in greek administration that do not want to change a thing. The current "Deal" just includes modern standards, it's bad for corrupt and lazy people. Its bad for Tax-evasion and bad for the Status Quo in greece. The EU spent 600 Billion euros for Greece, that 60.000 € Per Greek ! But they did not change a thing. Now that they are forced to do somthing, germany gets the BadGuy Role. To be honest, only three countries in the whole EU actually met the strict criteria to join the EMU. After that they decided to be a little more lenient. | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
On July 14 2015 23:06 mahrgell wrote: Why is everyone that has a the same opinion as Germany submitting to Germanys wishes? Maybe they really have the same opinion? It doesn't matter if they submit or agree. Germany dominates a union of smaller countries. No one stands up to Germany in either economic power or political ideology. This makes it a German Empire. Do you really go back and look at past empires and look if the subjects agreed or submitted? All Germany has to do is give up power. Or keep UK as counterweight. Now I rather prefer Germany to the UK, but that's besides the point. If the EU becomes a German empire, the European dream is dead. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
It is playing an individualist and nationalist game and ask for complete discpline from its "partners". Add to that arrogance and contempt for other countries - as Schauble did not only with Greece but France - and you have a dangerous cocktail When I look at the way Germany handle the EU I always wonder. They are always stressing on the importance of the rules, but the political game is about compromise, about winning but also letting your opponent keep the face. Germany does not care, if it can crush it would - a good sport analogy would be Germany Brazil in the last mondial, where 3-1 was enough, but where they still pushed to 5-1, effectively humiliating their opponent in their home country. | ||
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
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Yurie
12087 Posts
On July 15 2015 00:16 WhiteDog wrote: The US dominate but do not generate the hate in america that Germany does in europe. Germany is preserving its monstruous surplus - on par with China ! - but does not reinvest that surplus in a way that would benefit europe like the US used to do with the world. It is playing an individualist and nationalist game and ask for complete discpline from its "partners". Add to that arrogance and contempt for other countries - as Schauble did not only with Greece but France - and you have a dangerous cocktail. I am not aware of all of Europe disliking Germany. A 2013 poll found it among the most popular (couldn't find good sources). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22624104 | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On July 15 2015 00:16 WhiteDog wrote: They are always stressing on the importance of the rules, but the political game is about compromise, about winning but also letting your opponent keep the face. Germany does not care, if it can crush it would - a good sport analogy would be Germany Brazil in the last mondial, where 3-1 was enough, but where they still pushed to 5-1, effectively humiliating their opponent in their home country. If you really think that winning a soccer game with a high score somehow reveals our true, evil, sadistic German nature then you really need to check your perspective. Also using sovereignty as an excuse for national political interests isn't something exclusive to Germany. Using the government to support the national economy is maybe more prevalent in France than anywhere else. And although I don't really support how the German government has negotiated over the last week, you can't do the same thing over years and then be surprised when at some point you get the same reaction. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On July 15 2015 00:33 Nyxisto wrote: If you really think that winning a soccer game with a high score somehow reveals our true, evil, sadistic German nature then you really need to check your perspective. Also using sovereignty as an excuse for national political interests isn't something exclusive to Germany. Using the government to support the national economy is maybe more prevalent in France than anywhere else. And although I don't really support how the German government has negotiated over the last week, you can't do the same thing over years and then be surprised when at some point you get the same reaction. You're good at reading. My point was that they don't play the PR game, not that having 5-1 against Brazil shows how evil they are. Even if you are right, you need to compromise somehow to make the other accept - or you get photos of you in a nazi outfit like Schauble and Merkel. And lol about France really, we play for the team more than Germany ever did. | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
On July 15 2015 00:25 Yurie wrote: I am not aware of all of Europe disliking Germany. A 2013 poll found it among the most popular (couldn't find good sources). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22624104 Who said there is a negative opinion about Germany? Many don't want to live in a European federation and would rather live under the skirt of Germany instead. Surely, there would be much more negative reactions were we to live in a French empire. Fact remains that historically the two have vied and will vie continually over control of Europe. The idea of the EU was to end this struggle as the last two struggles caused wars we can no longer afford to suffer. The alternative of a peaceful benevolent German empire is new. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
Tell me : It's because of our cheese ? | ||
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