European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 162

On July 06 2015 23:06 maartendq wrote:

Still begs the question why Greece didn't just fire the paper pushers instead of the auditors. I doubt the Troika would have made much of a fuss against that, on the contrary.

On July 06 2015 22:57 Taguchi wrote:


You realize that, under the troika, the Greek government could not make decisions like this on its own, right?



You could've just written 'and fuck you too', you know. I realize it's fruitless to talk to you about why nations around the world generally intervene to stabilize dangerous situations, always acting for the benefit of their own interests. You will have to settle for being annoyed in the very near future, or (to the detriment of all) reflective of your current attitude in the far future.

On July 06 2015 23:06 Taguchi wrote:


Again. Greece, under the MoU, could not unilaterally make decisions like the ones you wanted it to make. Such unilateral decisions would break the MoU. Why is this so hard to get?

Simpler english: Greece deciding to do stuff breaks contract terms. When Syriza did it, your government decried them. The actual deal that Syriza wound up proposing in the end offered the rollback of various laws passed in this 5 month period as one of the terms.

On July 06 2015 23:15 Acrofales wrote:


Greece can do whatever the fuck they feel like. They can even hold referendums about stuff on Sunday that should have been resolved the Tuesday before. Reschooling people to become tax auditors may take a while (I don't doubt that you need some basic aptitude in math, and then quite a bit of education in accounting), but you can at least start. What Greece does is largely up to Greece. But instead of starting to try something, Syriza did nothing much for 5 months and then blew up negotiations at the deadline.

Also, yes, Syriza is against austerity measures. I never said they don't want to reform, although the question is why they haven't at least started in these last 5 months: it seems like Syriza is happier with the (untenable) status quo, than with whatever reforms they come up with themselves. Syriza was voted into power on a basis of "no to austerity", and got that reaffirmed by the recent referendum, which was a resounding "no" to the austerity reforms proposed by the Troika. What their (viable) alternative is, is still unknown: it seems to be largely based on the idea that they will do what they want and Europe will bankroll it no questions asked!

On July 06 2015 23:18 lord_nibbler wrote:
Why is it so hard to get for you to see that things are not as black and withe as you pretend?
Also, even if I grand you that previous Greek governments could absolutely not do anything about it before, than that still means nearly half a year has passed where they could have done something by now.

On July 06 2015 23:35 lord_nibbler wrote:
Also, in this context there is another point I always wanted to make here.
Germany gets reminded daily from the Greeks that they too got a dept relief in 1953.
But did you know what happened a year before in Germany?
They made a law that every German had to give half his wealth to the state (over a certain time period)!
They were in dire straits, half the houses got bombed out and they got 12 million refugees to support on top of it. So everybody got together and decided that giving half of want you own to your country is not to much to ask for.

Where do I see similar developments in Greece?
These would have been signs of real change in Greek attitude that could have easily gotten sympathy from the general public in northern countries and create a hell lot more goodwill.
Why do Greek governments to this day insist on ridiculous tax brakes for Mykonos or shipowners?

On July 06 2015 19:33 zlefin wrote:
I have been quite thoroughly paying attention to numerous sources from numerous countries, and to the substantive details. I believe it is you folk who need to reconsider your positions.

On July 06 2015 23:42 Alcathous wrote:


Yeah, it is only the Greeks who say this...

On July 06 2015 23:41 Taguchi wrote:


a) Greek GDP contracted by 25%, so there's that.
b) Greece didn't start a friggin' World War.

On July 06 2015 23:34 warding wrote:
Syriza's platform was not only about ending austerity - it was in great part about undoing previous reforms and greatly expanding government spending. If you looked at their program, it was completely impossible to implement it without going way into deficit territory once again.

Taguchi Greek debt may be unsustainable in the long term but it's not a pain RIGHT NOW. The urgent pains RIGHT NOW is the economic model of Greece which is even more unsustainable. The agreement with the creditors is a deal where they will help you with your debt burden, avoiding a default and an exit from the Euro which will definitely be devastating to your economy, while in return you make the necessary reforms to your economy and in some cases to your political system to ensure that you don't go into the same unsustainable model you had before.

The crux of the Syriza problem was never about debt sustainability. The creditors have undergone haircuts and have extended maturities and have lowered interest rates. The problem is that Syriza believes in a completely different economic model and doesn't accept Greece's responsibilities in the agreement. They want to have the debt problem fixed for Greece, while having the sovereignty to undergo whatever economic policy they want. In other words, they want to have the cake and eat it too. Politically, they took the 'anti-austerity' and 'debt is unsustainable' ideas to make their position more palatable to the moderate left-wing intelligentsia in both sides of the pond. Again, the creditors have continuously agreed time and again to relax deficit targets with Greece and Portugal. They've agreed to huge debt relief for Greece already. There's no reason to believe that they wouldn't be reasonable with the austerity targets and indeed that seems to have been a concession during these 5 months.

Making it worse, Syriza might actually prefer Greece to be outside the Euro. Outside the Euro, they'll have the freedom to print as much as they want, allowing them the flexibility to spend where and how much they want the government to spend while inflating away the economy. Since that is not a bad scenario for them, they're willing to make a circus of the negotiations with the creditors and troll their way into trying to get the best deal they can, because essentially they have nothing to lose. This referendum was part of the master-trolling performance, an essentially meaningless question framed as a matter of national pride asked only to amass the national political capital for the party to go through whatever consequences come next. Overall, this is a pretty repugnant spectacle for everyone else involved.

On July 06 2015 23:41 Taguchi wrote:


a) Greek GDP contracted by 25%, so there's that.
b) Greece didn't start a friggin' World War.

On July 06 2015 23:49 lord_nibbler wrote:
What are you trying to say?
I don't get any connection from your 'answers' to the point I made...

On July 07 2015 00:09 Taguchi wrote:


You do not? You mentioned the pain German citizens went through before they got debt relief. I mentioned the pain Greek citizens have gone through without, so far, getting debt relief. Since Greece did not, in fact, kill a few million people (in rather inventive ways too, if Jews are anything to go by) I think the call for relief is a moral one, at least when compared to 1953 Germany (that you brought up, mind you).

On July 06 2015 23:51 Taguchi wrote:


a) IMF paper exists. It explains things such as why, even in net present value terms, the debt is currently unsustainable under any scenario, including doubling current loan maturities. I've linked to it, repeatedly. This is getting tiresome since it looks as if you just don't want to.
b) Just now, the meeting of political parties' heads ended here in Greece. All heads said they have agreed on what reforms Greece must go through, to be presented tomorrow to the Summit. Safe to say you can just throw all that analysis about what Syriza (those commie bastards) wish for out the door, no? After all, these are the people the EU wanted in power instead of Syriza.

On July 07 2015 00:12 Acrofales wrote:


Except that the point was an economic one, not a moral one. Germany showed they were making serious efforts to get their economy on track FIRST, and got debt relief SECOND. It wasn't to say "oh look at the poor German citizens who handed in half their wealth", it was to say "look at how the German citizens made an effort to fix their broken economy".