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On November 09 2021 14:56 plasmidghost wrote:
For a number of reasons, I'm looking to leave the US permanently next year. The two cities I'm looking to relocate to are either Amsterdam or Brussels. I've looked into what their respective governments are like and they seem far better than what I deal with as a trans person in Texas. Is there important political and economic things I should know about relocating to the EU as an American with no citizenship or residency ties to the EU?
Looks like you got at least a few good suggestions so far. Although, hopefully that paints the accurate picture of "immigration is difficult, often expensive, and leads to a pretty significant culture shock."
Have you considered any options that involve fewer troubles like those? Say, California, Canada, or the UK? All more hospitable to the average American, partially due to speaking English but also certainly due to general cultural closeness. There's no government you'll find that doesn't have its own fair share of dysfunction but it's probably easiest to stick with something reasonably familiar that is tolerable. And there's a lot of steps up from Texas that you can try that are short of what you are planning.
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Since i don't know anything about the actual bureaucratic requirements for moving to the EU, i will add that you should start learning the language of the place you are moving to, ideally while you are still in the US.
While it is possible to survive in most major cities on English alone, not knowing the local language will hurt your job prospects and your chances of actually integrating with the locals greatly.
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I was considering the same thing when I was worried trump would win in 2020, plasmidghost. My analysis concluded Norway and Germany were the best options from an "overall" perspective. It sounds pretty difficult if you aren't in a lucrative industry or you don't have a masters degree. I am lucky to be where I am and it was as simple as finding a job, as others have pointed out.
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Norway28733 Posts
Yep. Exceptions can be made for people working in certain sections of academia, where English might be the norm among your colleagues anyway, but overall, learning the language is a big hinderance for integration for very many immigrants. Starting early - before moving - signals dedication towards integrating which makes everything a lot easier, and it'll make people more accommodating.
Arguably an exception can be made for Amsterdam, too. I'm almost inclined to believe that your average Amsterdamian will speak more comprehensible English (for an American) than what the case is for your average Englishman. 
Migrating is difficult in very many ways - but the painful parts of the process are mostly temporary. I certainly understand wanting to leave Texas as a transgendered person, however, cities in the northern coastal areas of the US are probably just as accepting as most European cities are. (This is just my impression - I don't really have data to back it up, but I feel like Western Europe has fewer homophobes than the US, but that our attitudes towards trans people are in many ways a bit less progressive than what you find in the more progressive parts of the US. Like, here, you'll find quite some people that are genuinely 'I totally accept gay people but I really don't get trans people', while I feel in the US, hatred is more overlapping. Might be an outdated impression though.)
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On November 10 2021 01:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:Yep. Exceptions can be made for people working in certain sections of academia, where English might be the norm among your colleagues anyway, but overall, learning the language is a big hinderance for integration for very many immigrants. Starting early - before moving - signals dedication towards integrating which makes everything a lot easier, and it'll make people more accommodating. Arguably an exception can be made for Amsterdam, too. I'm almost inclined to believe that your average Amsterdamian will speak more comprehensible English (for an American) than what the case is for your average Englishman. Migrating is difficult in very many ways - but the painful parts of the process are mostly temporary. I certainly understand wanting to leave Texas as a transgendered person, however, cities in the northern coastal areas of the US are probably just as accepting as most European cities are. (This is just my impression - I don't really have data to back it up, but I feel like Western Europe has fewer homophobes than the US, but that our attitudes towards trans people are in many ways a bit less progressive than what you find in the more progressive parts of the US. Like, here, you'll find quite some people that are genuinely 'I totally accept gay people but I really don't get trans people', while I feel in the US, hatred is more overlapping. Might be an outdated impression though.)
Yeah moving to Portland or something like that is a much easier answer. But I legitimately think a lot of Americans underestimate how much stress and bullshit they are leaving behind when they move to Europe. The entire American cultural experience is very poor and full of conflict. If my wife's family didn't live nearby, we would have moved a long time ago. There really just isn't all that much incentive to live in the US.
Out of curiosity for my euro-homies, what would compel you to move to the US?
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 10 2021 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2021 01:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:Yep. Exceptions can be made for people working in certain sections of academia, where English might be the norm among your colleagues anyway, but overall, learning the language is a big hinderance for integration for very many immigrants. Starting early - before moving - signals dedication towards integrating which makes everything a lot easier, and it'll make people more accommodating. Arguably an exception can be made for Amsterdam, too. I'm almost inclined to believe that your average Amsterdamian will speak more comprehensible English (for an American) than what the case is for your average Englishman. Migrating is difficult in very many ways - but the painful parts of the process are mostly temporary. I certainly understand wanting to leave Texas as a transgendered person, however, cities in the northern coastal areas of the US are probably just as accepting as most European cities are. (This is just my impression - I don't really have data to back it up, but I feel like Western Europe has fewer homophobes than the US, but that our attitudes towards trans people are in many ways a bit less progressive than what you find in the more progressive parts of the US. Like, here, you'll find quite some people that are genuinely 'I totally accept gay people but I really don't get trans people', while I feel in the US, hatred is more overlapping. Might be an outdated impression though.) Yeah moving to Portland or something like that is a much easier answer. But I legitimately think a lot of Americans underestimate how much stress and bullshit they are leaving behind when they move to Europe. The entire American cultural experience is very poor and full of conflict. If my wife's family didn't live nearby, we would have moved a long time ago. There really just isn't all that much incentive to live in the US. Out of curiosity for my euro-homies, what would compel you to move to the US?
It I had a particularly good job offer, in somewhere interesting I’d like to experience aspects of the US’ lifestyle, and hey there’s exciting and culturally vibrant places all over the shop.
Would be nice to experience some of that, although for me it’d be for a couple of years rather than a permanent move.
I’m both a bit of a homeboy and also would have too many reservations of American political esp. healthcare to want to settle down and further expand my clan.
I’ve been through the fucking wringer myself with health-issues, if Minibat inherited the malfunctioning part of my brain living somewhere with a worse safety net would be terrible, to take just one reservation.
There’s still a lot to like about America and Americans that can be a bit underplayed by us Euros
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Shitloads of money would be the only thing i can come up with. I would need enough money to buy myself out of most of the bullshit in the US. If you are in the top 0.1%, living in the US can be very nice i assume.
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Norway28733 Posts
On November 10 2021 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2021 01:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:Yep. Exceptions can be made for people working in certain sections of academia, where English might be the norm among your colleagues anyway, but overall, learning the language is a big hinderance for integration for very many immigrants. Starting early - before moving - signals dedication towards integrating which makes everything a lot easier, and it'll make people more accommodating. Arguably an exception can be made for Amsterdam, too. I'm almost inclined to believe that your average Amsterdamian will speak more comprehensible English (for an American) than what the case is for your average Englishman. Migrating is difficult in very many ways - but the painful parts of the process are mostly temporary. I certainly understand wanting to leave Texas as a transgendered person, however, cities in the northern coastal areas of the US are probably just as accepting as most European cities are. (This is just my impression - I don't really have data to back it up, but I feel like Western Europe has fewer homophobes than the US, but that our attitudes towards trans people are in many ways a bit less progressive than what you find in the more progressive parts of the US. Like, here, you'll find quite some people that are genuinely 'I totally accept gay people but I really don't get trans people', while I feel in the US, hatred is more overlapping. Might be an outdated impression though.) Yeah moving to Portland or something like that is a much easier answer. But I legitimately think a lot of Americans underestimate how much stress and bullshit they are leaving behind when they move to Europe. The entire American cultural experience is very poor and full of conflict. If my wife's family didn't live nearby, we would have moved a long time ago. There really just isn't all that much incentive to live in the US. Out of curiosity for my euro-homies, what would compel you to move to the US?
If I were single and younger, I could picture living in some American city because they're cultural hubs and the melting pot/salad bowl or whatever aspect is greater than it is in Europe. I do love multiculturalism. That's one area where Norway is clearly inferior, even if we've been improving a fair bit.
As a married established man, nothing could really compel me to move from Norway to the US. I do think the nature in some of the northern least populated states looks amazing - but we're pretty blessed in that department ourselves.
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On November 10 2021 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2021 01:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:Yep. Exceptions can be made for people working in certain sections of academia, where English might be the norm among your colleagues anyway, but overall, learning the language is a big hinderance for integration for very many immigrants. Starting early - before moving - signals dedication towards integrating which makes everything a lot easier, and it'll make people more accommodating. Arguably an exception can be made for Amsterdam, too. I'm almost inclined to believe that your average Amsterdamian will speak more comprehensible English (for an American) than what the case is for your average Englishman. Migrating is difficult in very many ways - but the painful parts of the process are mostly temporary. I certainly understand wanting to leave Texas as a transgendered person, however, cities in the northern coastal areas of the US are probably just as accepting as most European cities are. (This is just my impression - I don't really have data to back it up, but I feel like Western Europe has fewer homophobes than the US, but that our attitudes towards trans people are in many ways a bit less progressive than what you find in the more progressive parts of the US. Like, here, you'll find quite some people that are genuinely 'I totally accept gay people but I really don't get trans people', while I feel in the US, hatred is more overlapping. Might be an outdated impression though.) Yeah moving to Portland or something like that is a much easier answer. But I legitimately think a lot of Americans underestimate how much stress and bullshit they are leaving behind when they move to Europe. The entire American cultural experience is very poor and full of conflict. If my wife's family didn't live nearby, we would have moved a long time ago. There really just isn't all that much incentive to live in the US. Out of curiosity for my euro-homies, what would compel you to move to the US?
Immense money or love.
Allow me to ask a question of my own. What do You mean by "stress and bullshit" of living in US compared to EU?
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On November 10 2021 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2021 01:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:Yep. Exceptions can be made for people working in certain sections of academia, where English might be the norm among your colleagues anyway, but overall, learning the language is a big hinderance for integration for very many immigrants. Starting early - before moving - signals dedication towards integrating which makes everything a lot easier, and it'll make people more accommodating. Arguably an exception can be made for Amsterdam, too. I'm almost inclined to believe that your average Amsterdamian will speak more comprehensible English (for an American) than what the case is for your average Englishman. Migrating is difficult in very many ways - but the painful parts of the process are mostly temporary. I certainly understand wanting to leave Texas as a transgendered person, however, cities in the northern coastal areas of the US are probably just as accepting as most European cities are. (This is just my impression - I don't really have data to back it up, but I feel like Western Europe has fewer homophobes than the US, but that our attitudes towards trans people are in many ways a bit less progressive than what you find in the more progressive parts of the US. Like, here, you'll find quite some people that are genuinely 'I totally accept gay people but I really don't get trans people', while I feel in the US, hatred is more overlapping. Might be an outdated impression though.) Yeah moving to Portland or something like that is a much easier answer. But I legitimately think a lot of Americans underestimate how much stress and bullshit they are leaving behind when they move to Europe. The entire American cultural experience is very poor and full of conflict. If my wife's family didn't live nearby, we would have moved a long time ago. There really just isn't all that much incentive to live in the US. Out of curiosity for my euro-homies, what would compel you to move to the US?
Absolutely nothing.
There a basically 4 big Nopes I have about the US:
- the huge political divide, where every common-sense topic is suddenly political
- the malfunctioning police system
- the malfunctioning healthcare system
- the complete lack of employee protections
So yeah, would I easily make 6 figures in the US? No doubt.
But just from personal experience, there are enough occurences where I know they would have ended completely different in the US:
- mym mom got cancer at 40yo. She is still receiving therapy 20years later... and still has her job. And is not financially ruined, because thats what the normal health insurance everyone has just covers...
- my gf got sick for 9 months... and still has her job and got most of her wage during the entire time.
- during Corona we saw how companies laid off their people overnight, in certain countries... simply can't happen in Germany. good luck firing people with 3-6 months notice. Then they leave the door by the time you actually need them again.
So even if I was single, you wouldn't get me to the US for a quarter million a year. Most other countries in Europe it would just be a matter of price...
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United States43465 Posts
As a Euro in the US it’s really not that bad if you’re rich and white. The entire system is set up to cater to me and while that’s obviously pretty bad in a vacuum it’s subjectively good. Healthcare is fucked up but I’m not the one getting fucked. Income inequality is fucked up but I’m benefiting from that. If I wasn’t planning on having a big expensive family I could probably retire today with just a half dozen years of work behind me. That’s pretty crazy.
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On November 10 2021 02:04 Simberto wrote:
Shitloads of money would be the only thing i can come up with. I would need enough money to buy myself out of most of the bullshit in the US. If you are in the top 0.1%, living in the US can be very nice i assume.
Yeah, if you have enough money most of the problems of living in the US just disappear.
Expensive housing? Stupidly high healthcare bills? No problem!
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On November 10 2021 00:05 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2021 14:56 plasmidghost wrote:
For a number of reasons, I'm looking to leave the US permanently next year. The two cities I'm looking to relocate to are either Amsterdam or Brussels. I've looked into what their respective governments are like and they seem far better than what I deal with as a trans person in Texas. Is there important political and economic things I should know about relocating to the EU as an American with no citizenship or residency ties to the EU? Looks like you got at least a few good suggestions so far. Although, hopefully that paints the accurate picture of "immigration is difficult, often expensive, and leads to a pretty significant culture shock." Have you considered any options that involve fewer troubles like those? Say, California, Canada, or the UK?
Maybe I'm sheltered when it comes to other places but I definitely wouldn't recommend the UK to a trans person.
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On November 10 2021 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2021 01:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:Yep. Exceptions can be made for people working in certain sections of academia, where English might be the norm among your colleagues anyway, but overall, learning the language is a big hinderance for integration for very many immigrants. Starting early - before moving - signals dedication towards integrating which makes everything a lot easier, and it'll make people more accommodating. Arguably an exception can be made for Amsterdam, too. I'm almost inclined to believe that your average Amsterdamian will speak more comprehensible English (for an American) than what the case is for your average Englishman. Migrating is difficult in very many ways - but the painful parts of the process are mostly temporary. I certainly understand wanting to leave Texas as a transgendered person, however, cities in the northern coastal areas of the US are probably just as accepting as most European cities are. (This is just my impression - I don't really have data to back it up, but I feel like Western Europe has fewer homophobes than the US, but that our attitudes towards trans people are in many ways a bit less progressive than what you find in the more progressive parts of the US. Like, here, you'll find quite some people that are genuinely 'I totally accept gay people but I really don't get trans people', while I feel in the US, hatred is more overlapping. Might be an outdated impression though.) Out of curiosity for my euro-homies, what would compel you to move to the US?
I've considered it tbh, simply because there is nowhere in Europe that is quite like Vegas. But it wouldn't be considered a job, so I'd have to move back every three months or something, I wouldn't really be living there.
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Having loads of cash makes most of the problems dissapear regardless of where you live though...
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On November 10 2021 04:18 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2021 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:On November 10 2021 01:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:Yep. Exceptions can be made for people working in certain sections of academia, where English might be the norm among your colleagues anyway, but overall, learning the language is a big hinderance for integration for very many immigrants. Starting early - before moving - signals dedication towards integrating which makes everything a lot easier, and it'll make people more accommodating. Arguably an exception can be made for Amsterdam, too. I'm almost inclined to believe that your average Amsterdamian will speak more comprehensible English (for an American) than what the case is for your average Englishman. Migrating is difficult in very many ways - but the painful parts of the process are mostly temporary. I certainly understand wanting to leave Texas as a transgendered person, however, cities in the northern coastal areas of the US are probably just as accepting as most European cities are. (This is just my impression - I don't really have data to back it up, but I feel like Western Europe has fewer homophobes than the US, but that our attitudes towards trans people are in many ways a bit less progressive than what you find in the more progressive parts of the US. Like, here, you'll find quite some people that are genuinely 'I totally accept gay people but I really don't get trans people', while I feel in the US, hatred is more overlapping. Might be an outdated impression though.) Out of curiosity for my euro-homies, what would compel you to move to the US? I've considered it tbh, simply because there is nowhere in Europe that is quite like Vegas. But it wouldn't be considered a job, so I'd have to move back every three months or something, I wouldn't really be living there.
Perhaps Macau then? 
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On November 10 2021 04:21 Uldridge wrote:
Having loads of cash makes most of the problems dissapear regardless of where you live though...
Dollar value something to consider too. My sister is living in Turkey and pays $180 or something for rent. Don't know what it's like there for trans though.
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United States43465 Posts
On November 10 2021 04:21 Uldridge wrote:
Having loads of cash makes most of the problems dissapear regardless of where you live though...
Sure, but having loads of cash is more attainable in America. It’s not like it’s a poor country, on average it’s better than most, it’s just a median vs mean problem. The median Dutchman is having a better time than the median American. The mean American is having a better time than the mean Dutchman.
Being rich is good everywhere but getting rich is easier in the US. It’s more polarized, greater numbers of poor means greater numbers of rich.
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On November 10 2021 04:21 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2021 04:18 Nebuchad wrote:On November 10 2021 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:On November 10 2021 01:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:Yep. Exceptions can be made for people working in certain sections of academia, where English might be the norm among your colleagues anyway, but overall, learning the language is a big hinderance for integration for very many immigrants. Starting early - before moving - signals dedication towards integrating which makes everything a lot easier, and it'll make people more accommodating. Arguably an exception can be made for Amsterdam, too. I'm almost inclined to believe that your average Amsterdamian will speak more comprehensible English (for an American) than what the case is for your average Englishman. Migrating is difficult in very many ways - but the painful parts of the process are mostly temporary. I certainly understand wanting to leave Texas as a transgendered person, however, cities in the northern coastal areas of the US are probably just as accepting as most European cities are. (This is just my impression - I don't really have data to back it up, but I feel like Western Europe has fewer homophobes than the US, but that our attitudes towards trans people are in many ways a bit less progressive than what you find in the more progressive parts of the US. Like, here, you'll find quite some people that are genuinely 'I totally accept gay people but I really don't get trans people', while I feel in the US, hatred is more overlapping. Might be an outdated impression though.) Out of curiosity for my euro-homies, what would compel you to move to the US? I've considered it tbh, simply because there is nowhere in Europe that is quite like Vegas. But it wouldn't be considered a job, so I'd have to move back every three months or something, I wouldn't really be living there. Perhaps Macau then?
I'd second Macau, nice fancy Casino area, not too far off you walk into the Portuguese influenced architectural area, lovely water view. And they have Lemon Coke. Lemon Coke is the best shit.
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