EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1220
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Velr
Switzerland10811 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10811 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10132 Posts
On January 12 2019 02:43 Nyxisto wrote: And while Poland is on its way to becoming richer than Southern Europe (which happens to lack a lot of the reactionary politics we are blaming on neoliberalism), it still is plagued by the same cultural and democratic crisis and populism we are talking about. Can you clarify this? Do you mean Poland or Southern Europe? | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
The first half of that tends to expose the people suggesting it dishonestly. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On January 12 2019 07:02 Godwrath wrote: Can you clarify this? Do you mean Poland or Southern Europe? Southern Europe, particularly Portugal and Greece were nominally socialist parties seem to have settled on a more or less pragmatic course. And apart from the Vox inroads in Andalusia Spain seems to be in fairly stable condition as well. If economic hardship was responsible for reactionary politics, those countries would look very different. If you compare it to the Sweden Democrats, in a hugely equitable country with strong growth, I can make no sense of putting this on economic hardship. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
Saturday 22/12, for the Act 6, 33 600 people demonstrated according to the Interior, down from 66 000 for the Act 5. The narrative from the power became, “the movement is slowing down, the last of the yellow vests in the street are extremists”. They used three incidents for this: (1) 20 antisemitic assholes, linked to some far-right Internet guru, gathered in front of cameras to perform some obscene gesture considered as antisemitic, and sang some antisemitic stuff. They were pretty much isolated extremists but they were filmed, so they were used to demonize the whole movement. (2) In a symbolic ceremony, some yellow vests beheaded an effigy of Macron with an axe. A barbaric gesture indeed, because the French genius produced a far more refined form of civilization. This was considered as a hateful act and an incentive to violence, etc. The journalists who filmed this were questioned too by the police, as if they were some kind of accomplices lol. This regime is completely losing its mind. (3) A cop took out his gun in the Champs-Élysées after he was attacked by protestors: + Show Spoiler + Or so the mass medias said. Because in fact, when you watch the whole sequence, you can see that the cop bikers were the ones who provoked and fucked up, throwing grenades on a peaceful crowd while they were outnumbered and without backup. Saturday 29/12, for the Act 7, people came back in the cold. The press gave the nonsensical number of 12 000 demonstrators, which was easily exceeded when you added 3 or 4 big cities. It was the number from the Interior at 12:00, and since the Interior gave no other number this day (usually they give a definitive count at the end of the afternoon), the parrots in medias repeated it like it was definitive… Two days later, the Interior gave the number of 32 000, i.e. something close to the 22/12. This is probably the first time a movement goes on during this period. During the Act 7, some of the yellow vests in Paris gathered in front of a few medias to denounce their bias and lack of “objectivity”. Mainstream medias are now largely considered as a propaganda tool by demonstrators (and rightly so in my opinion). The Benalla affair briefly came back at the end of the year. We learnt that Benalla, Macron's protégé who had been covered by the presidency after he beat up protestors while impersonating a cop, still had two diplomatic passports and had met several African leaders those past few months. We also learnt that Macron and him had talked since the affair, though the presidency downplayed this, saying Macron had only answered twice to Benalla's messages. Won't develop too much but this is another massive mistake from the services (his passports should have been removed when he was fired) + the African connections sound like shady stuff. The Senate will again question Benalla, plus 2 ministers, about this new development next week. For the presidential wishes for the new year, Macron gave a 15 minutes speech. He rejoiced about the reforms done in 2018 and confirmed his intentions to further reform—unemployment insurance, pensions and public function. He made 3 wishes for 2019: truth—a brilliant choice when his lies in the Benalla affair had just returned—dignity, and hope. Everything he said was forgotten anyway because of a single formula: he referred to the yellow vests as a “hateful crowd”. Of course they felt insulted by this catastrophic expression. The Macronie started 2019 with the publication of a decree hardening the control of jobless people: (1) there used to be some proportionality between your former wage and what constitutes a “reasonable job offer”, now it's gone; (2) if you refuse two “reasonable offers,” your allocation is removed (before, it was suspended, you would get it back later after showing you were a good serf). The message was clear, the antisocial line was there to stay. Saturday 05/01, the Act 8 was a turning point for two reasons. First, the numbers in the street started rising again: the Interior counted more than 50 000 people (some guy added the results from each local demonstration he could find and came up with 150 000). Second, the three following incidents happened: (1) The first one is surrealist. Just… watch it. + Show Spoiler + This boxer (a former champion), who caused cops to retreat 1v4 on his mere fists, quickly became a Internet hero, the symbol of a people fighting and rising against repression. He is now in jail waiting for his trial next month. Before surrendering to the police (he hid 2 days), he posted a video on Facebook explaining his gesture: he had witnessed cop violence all day, received tear gas again and again, seen cops beat people near him, and so he got mad. He said that he had “misreacted”. He also said that he had “people's anger in him”. He asked people to continue the movement pacifically. He sounded very sincere in the video. In another scene, near some giant pogo, this same boxer is seen beating a cop on the floor (the second video): + Show Spoiler + A woman came at the boxer's audience and said that he had “saved her life”. You can see her in the second video, it's the woman wearing something red near him: she was on the floor before and it seems that the cop was beating her. So it seems that the boxer beat the cop who was beating the woman. After his Facebook video, a pot was opened online by his family to pay the boxer's court fees. It received 140 000 euros in just a few hours, with an average donation of 17 euros. This triggered a scandal and the government ordered the platform to close the pot (which was done, even if legally no harm was done). Some dumb minister even asked for the list of all donators, saying that those people are “accomplices”. (2) The second incident is this one (second video): + Show Spoiler + Some demonstrators used a construction machine to—literally—ram through the door of a ministry. The minister—the government's spokesperson—was evacuated by his security service. This spokesperson denounced “an attack on the Republic”. Actually it seemed more like an attack by opportunity, somehow those amateurs left a minister unguarded, a construction machine was nearby and some of the protestors used it as a ram in an almost playful ambiance. No one entered the court and the minister was never in danger physically. But the regime loves to over-dramatize this kind of stuff to paint all protestors as nihilist, bloodthirsty thugs who want to destroy institutions. (3) The third incident is an example of cop violence: + Show Spoiler + The cop boxes several times the black guy who stands against the wall. Later, he goes on to hit someone else. It turned out that this “second boxer” in uniform was the commander of the local police, and he had received the Legion of Honour a few days ago. Can you believe it? The prosecutor refused to open an inquiry, saying that the "insurrectional context" justified his reaction (!!). This was so gross that the prefect seized himself the cop inspection which handles that kind of case. Other videos were found where he beat protestors that day. A woman claims that this commander gave her a blow with his head, she filed a complaint. It was found that some of his colleagues had complained about him a few years ago, and that he had hit a fellow cop and had received some kind of blame for it. This is the kind of violent trash who becomes cop commander in France and gets decorated… This post is already wayyy too long, so I won't analyze it in length here, but one thing to keep in mind to understand the current situation is that the Macron regime has totally unleashed violence in the French society (mainly by ordering and covering a brutal repression). Polls are now asking people their opinion about violence, and even if most condemn it, 30 to 40% people say that they “understand violence”. The number rises to almost 50% for people from the lower classes, who are the bulk of the yellow vests. The taboo of physical violence is being lifted with each passing week. Never before someone like this boxer punching cops could have become a symbol like this, it was unthinkable. The regime is 100% responsible for it, they never had a single word for all the victims of cop violence and verbally escalate any time they have the opportunity. Mainstream medias heavily under-report cop violence but people see the videos on the Internet. Pictures with the faces of many beaten/injured people circulate (an example here; nothing bloody but it's visually ugly). The double standards between the civil boxer, who was immediately sent to jail, and the cop commander, who got nothing—he returned to work the day after!—are mindblowing. No one can believes in justice anymore in those conditions. The power covers its sword arm too crudely. The regime had believed its own propaganda about the movement dying, so they were caught offguard last Saturday by the surge of mobilization, especially in Paris (they said 3 500, but most likely it was more than 10 000). They won't make this mistake tomorrow. The Macronie has poured massive oil on the fire all week, police unions have asked for blood as always, the Prime minister went to the TV on Monday to announce some freedom-destroying law against “violent protestors” inspired by the example of hooligans. The Interior Minister said today that “people who come now to demonstrations where there is violence are accomplices”. No more individual responsibility for the regime, now collective punishment is the rule. Long story short, the regime felt humiliated by the Act 8. Tomorrow I bet that they will arbitrarily arrest hundreds of people before the demonstrations even begin like they did the 8 December. Some cities will be under a quasi-state of siege. More than 80 000 cops are mobilized, a few armoured vehicles, etc. There will be incidents for sure, it cannot be otherwise with their vengeful state of mind. The Macronie is done with this movement, they persuaded themselves that people in the streets are insurrectional, politicized extremists who want to overthrow the Republic. Tomorrow should be dirty, they want to stomp people in the streets. According to the latest polls, 60% of the French people still support the yellow vests. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
On January 12 2019 07:14 Belisarius wrote: If you really wanted to target immigration policy at brain drain in third world countries, you'd make it very easy for people to come to the west and work or study, but very hard to stay long term. The first half of that tends to expose the people suggesting it dishonestly. I think we can come up with quite a few alternatives. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On January 12 2019 07:24 TheDwf wrote: (3) A cop took out his gun in the Champs-Élysées after he was attacked by protestors: + Show Spoiler + Or so the mass medias said. Because in fact, when you watch the whole sequence, you can see that the cop bikers were the ones who provoked and fucked up, throwing grenades on a peaceful crowd while they were outnumbered and without backup. When you watch the WHOLE sequence of events, with some other angles (I do not have the link at hand currently), you will learn that the "peaceful crowd" was tailing a company of CRS that was trying to leave in vans, the vanguard sending bricks and a whole lot of other stuff at them, while trying to catch up and circle them. The cop bikers were on a sideroad, and sent grenades between the vans and the crowds (meaning, in the crowd), to allow their colleagues to disengage. After that, the crowd turned on them, as they were now isolated. They indeed fucked up, but that peaceful crowd bullshit is getting on my nerves. Law enforcement in France do not launch these for fun. When they do, it's because the crowd is not behaving as it should, and things are turning to a riot. They have very strict engagement rules, and it's a super stressful job, as you can be on edge from 5am to midnight with barely time to take a piss if the crowd is rowdy, while receiving insults and projectiles all day long. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
Or so the mass medias said. Because in fact, when you watch the whole sequence, you can see that the cop bikers were the ones who provoked and fucked up, throwing grenades on a peaceful crowd while they were outnumbered and without backup. Only you would call this the whole sequence. I mean, sure. You would call this "the whole sequence" since that at least make your argument not instantly void, but again, you have a lot of trouble sticking to factual statements. As a sidenote, i don't in fact see it as outrageous if law enforcement threatens to use deadly force if they're without backup and circled by a fucking obviously violent mob, it probably isn't helping that we now know that the rioters are willing to attack police violently. They indeed fucked up, but that peaceful crowd bullshit is getting on my nerves. Law enforcement in France do not launch these for fun. When they do, it's because the crowd is not behaving as it should, and things are turning to a riot. They have very strict engagement rules, and it's a super stressful job, as you can be on edge from 5am to midnight with barely time to take a piss if the crowd is rowdy, while receiving insults and projectiles all day long. Nah. Listen to DAF or whatever, you'll figure out real soon that the police is literally Hitler and you have no clue. Them is all peaceful, and the ones that aren't, that's because the police attacked first as shown in videos hand picked to not show the precursor of the events. Like the one he's linking. I mean you can literally hear basically a warzone in the background, but he still calls that tiny snippet the whole event. It's not the first time he done that btw, in case of the students that were detained on knees with hands behind their heads, he tried to tear jerk everyone here by telling us how poor those innocent little 15 year old kids are, look at them, so sad - of course not mentioning that there's other videos (taken by said kids) out there showing that they indeed torched multiple cars and attacked the police prior with throwables. Like, i don't get this attitude. It's literally pre-schooler attitude. Fucking up and then complaining that the bully indeed hits back, and unsurprisingly can hit considerably harder. There are plenty of instances where police overstepped their boundaries (like kicking people on the ground, or teasing/insulting the kids on their knees, don't know what exactly they said since i don't speak french etc), but to argue that somehow they're the bad guys after hitting back at rioters (DWF will have you know that there's barely any of those though) is just retarded. This would happen everywhere in the world equally. In fact it does, germany is a good example for that (first of may riots, every single year). They let people protest, once they get out of control (and make no mistake, the majority, if not every single one of the protests in france gets out of control), they take off the gloves and use heavy machinery, from tear gas to water throwers and the such. If you as a peaceful protester get caught in the middle, that's tough shit. Shouldn't associate with rioters then, or make sure you bolt the fuck out of there once stones go flying. But again. They're literally Hitler. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 12 2019 07:49 Nouar wrote: When you watch the WHOLE sequence of events, with some other angles (I do not have the link at hand currently), you will learn that the "peaceful crowd" was tailing a company of CRS that was trying to leave in vans, the vanguard sending bricks and a whole lot of other stuff at them, while trying to catch up and circle them. The cop bikers were on a sideroad, and sent grenades between the vans and the crowds (meaning, in the crowd), to allow their colleagues to disengage. After that, the crowd turned on them, as they were now isolated. They indeed fucked up, but that peaceful crowd bullshit is getting on my nerves. Law enforcement in France do not launch these for fun. When they do, it's because the crowd is not behaving as it should, and things are turning to a riot. They have very strict engagement rules, and it's a super stressful job, as you can be on edge from 5am to midnight with barely time to take a piss if the crowd is rowdy, while receiving insults and projectiles all day long. What you mention in the first paragraph is the cop version, based on a video manipulation—there is a gap between what you mention (people chasing the CRS vans) and the scene with the bikers, but they reunited the two videos as if the second scene had happened just after the first one. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10132 Posts
On January 12 2019 07:20 Nyxisto wrote: I can safely say that what you believe about Vox as a one-time thing in Andalucia is wrong, it is already creating waves through the political scene and heavily moving the discourse of the other right parties further to the right. And I say this as someone who despises it and I would like you to be right. Greece already has their parliamentary share of fascists, being the third force. Italy, well I don't need to say it. Portugal is the only one (or maybe not, I am ignorant about many things, and as a good Spaniard, this includes Portugal), and they pretty much said back in 2015 no to a good chunk of the EU austerity measures, just in time I would say.Southern Europe, particularly Portugal and Greece were nominally socialist parties seem to have settled on a more or less pragmatic course. And apart from the Vox inroads in Andalusia Spain seems to be in fairly stable condition as well. If economic hardship was responsible for reactionary politics, those countries would look very different. If you compare it to the Sweden Democrats, in a hugely equitable country with strong growth, I can make no sense of putting this on economic hardship. Not trying to be abrasive, I am genuinely wondering if you really said that southern Europe happens to lack a lot of the reactionary politics that we are blaming on neoliberalism because that's just not true. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
Italy is pretty bad yes. But then again Italy is also plagued by a year long refugee debate that has completely screwed up the political system. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21963 Posts
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Silvanel
Poland4733 Posts
On January 12 2019 11:14 Nyxisto wrote: Compared to the Hold that PiS have on Poland or Orban has on Hungary I honestly don't think the general Southern European situation even compares. Vox seems to resemble the AfD more than it does a mainstream party, and I would guess neither is going to run Germany or Spain soon. Italy is pretty bad yes. But then again Italy is also plagued by a year long refugee debate that has completely screwed up the political system. This year we will have parlimentary elctions in Poland, PiS will most likely win again but hopefully they wont have absolute majority and will need to go in coaltion with someone. That will be better to everyone. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10132 Posts
On January 12 2019 11:14 Nyxisto wrote: Compared to the Hold that PiS have on Poland or Orban has on Hungary I honestly don't think the general Southern European situation even compares. Vox seems to resemble the AfD more than it does a mainstream party, and I would guess neither is going to run Germany or Spain soon. Italy is pretty bad yes. But then again Italy is also plagued by a year-long refugee debate that has completely screwed up the political system. There is a difference between not being in the same situation than Poland or Hungary, to lack a reactionary response to neoliberal policies which was what you claimed. That response is on the rise right now and we don't know the rooftop yet. I don't think Spain is similar in that regard to Germany, the old theme "the two Spains" is more alive than in decades. And they won't be the mainstream parties, but those parties don't exist anymore in Spain. The right will need their votes to rule, and they don't hesitate on taking them (see Andalucia). On January 12 2019 20:10 Gorsameth wrote: Italy's political system was screwed up well before refugees came prominently into the picture, see Berlusconi. Berlusconi was pro-EU. The anti-EU response is mostly a response to the refugee debate and the imposed economic policies. Draghi won some time, but it wasn't enough. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
The EE people see how badly the more integrated and economically weak countries in the EU do. The far-right tells them stories that it is due to migration. That is false reasoning, but regardless, economically it is advantageous to vote for nationalism when it means not to joing the Euro. Unless the Eurozone fixes its internal problems, which means federalization, the nationalist souvereignity parties (mostly far-right and conservatives, but also some far-left) will have strong results outside of the Eurozone. And also probably inside, because the false story that migration is the problem works there as well to grab power. In particular since it "seems to be working" in EE. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9252 Posts
On January 13 2019 00:43 Big J wrote: SE is part of the Euro. EE is not. That's the difference why one growths economically and the other one is in endless recession. The EE people see how badly the more integrated and economically weak countries in the EU do. The far-right tells them stories that it is due to migration. That is false reasoning, but regardless, economically it is advantageous to vote for nationalism when it means not to joing the Euro. Unless the Eurozone fixes its internal problems, which means federalization, the nationalist souvereignity parties (mostly far-right and conservatives, but also some far-left) will have strong results outside of the Eurozone. And also probably inside, because the false story that migration is the problem works there as well to grab power. In particular since it "seems to be working" in EE. There's some truth to that. Our current PM openly says we won't adopt Euro until our economic parameters will comparable to those of Western Europe (hahaha) because that would backfire like it did in Southern Europe. Sure, he's representing a """"far"""" right government, but when the current president of the European Council (Donald Tusk) was our PM, Poland also wasn't very eager to join the eurozone. The EE people see how badly the more integrated and economically weak countries in the EU do. The far-right tells them stories that it is due to migration. I disagree with this. The EE people don't think the South is doing poorly because of migration. They are aware Italy wants to stop it, but what they think in general is that the North has a problem with migration and the South has a problem with handling their finances (regardless of who's responsible for that). Migration is only seen as an additional burden on the already troubled Southern economies. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5296 Posts
Romania continues to be one of the leading nations in Central and Eastern Europe for attracting foreign direct investment: the inward FDI in the country with a cumulative FDI totaling more than $170 billion since 1989.[23] Romania is the largest electronics producer in Central and Eastern Europe. Electronics manufacturing and research are among the main drivers of innovation and economic growth in the country. In the past 20 years Romania has also grown into a major center for mobile technology, information security, and related hardware research Dacia automobiles. Up until the late 2000s financial crisis, the Romanian economy had been referred to as a "Tiger" due to its high growth rates and rapid development.[24][25][26][27] Until 2009, Romanian economic growth was among the fastest in Europe (officially 8.4% in 2008 and more than three times the EU average).[28][29] Romania is rich in iron ore, oil, salt, uranium, nickel, copper and natural gas. The country is a regional leader in multiple fields, such as IT and motor vehicle production.[30][31][32] Bucharest, the capital city, is one of the largest financial and industrial centres in Eastern Europe. According to Eurostat[33] Romania posted the biggest economic growth in EU in 2016 by more than 6% increase of GDP. that doesn't mean much these days since the coming to power of PSD(center right/nationalist/populist) made rating entities keep decreasing our 2019 expected growth; still, we've been handed over the Presidency of the Council of the European Union. you dudes are fucked now.According to the IMF, Romania had one of the highest growth rates in the EU in 2017, with further growth expected to reach 5 percent in 2018.[34] | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 13 2019 01:32 Sent. wrote: There's some truth to that. Our current PM openly says we won't adopt Euro until our economic parameters will comparable to those of Western Europe (hahaha) because that would backfire like it did in Southern Europe. Sure, he's representing a """"far"""" right government, but when the current president of the European Council (Donald Tusk) was our PM, Poland also wasn't very eager to join the eurozone. I disagree with this. The EE people don't think the South is doing poorly because of migration. They are aware Italy wants to stop it, but what they think in general is that the North has a problem with migration and the South has a problem with handling their finances (regardless of who's responsible for that). Migration is only seen as an additional burden on the already troubled Southern economies. Thanks for the input. I mainly hear EE conservative opinions from Hungary, where it is mainly about migration as far as I can tell. That's probably why I am under the impression, that in EE immigration is by far the major factor that is being discussed as the source of economic trouble. In Austria we had an incident of a Hungarian minister coming to one of the worse districts of Vienna and making a twitter-video about how migration was causing bad living conditions in Austria. And such propaganda is then quite openly approved by the Austrian conservative parties, their government (FPÖ, ÖVP) and the Boulevard media. On January 13 2019 01:43 xM(Z wrote: i don't know what you've been smoking but that doesn't mean much these days since the coming to power of PSD(center right/nationalist/populist) made rating entities keep decreasing our 2019 expected growth; still, we've been handed over the Presidency of the Council of the European Union. you dudes are fucked now. What/who are you responding to? | ||
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