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On September 08 2018 04:59 Sermokala wrote:
I mean the vatican is about as democratic as the US with the cardinals being the electors.
I believe that American presidents, or any other function of democratic representation is not elected for a lifetime. And there is multiple ones of them that are elected, bottom up.
With the pope it is the other way around, a pope decides who is allowed to vote for the next pope.
The purpose of liberal democracy is to have a representative periodic measure mechanism to ensure that the rules lead to wanted results.
The purpose of socialist democracy is to directly interfere in social life democratically.
For either of them you need an unbiased measuring system of every individual in your political system.
Vatican is a conservative democracy. It is not meant as a mean to measure the will of the people. It is meant to self-reproduce existing leadership, because conservatives believe in the existance of enlightened leaders that don't require social selection, neither of markets nor of democracy. it is not unbiased, not even meant to be philosophical (in reality no democratic system is truely unbiased and the longer conservatives are in power, the more self-reproducing mechanisms usually replace truely and objectively asking all the people)
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Meanwhile Austria is pushing their initiative to hand out the Austrian citizenship to the German speaking population in South Tyrol.
Somehow the Italians don't appreciate this. But they are always grumpy when it comes to European unity!
The question is: Should Germany give Austria a guarantee, that we will assist them in whatever they do or not? Also could we give German passports to the population of Alsace Lorraine?
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On September 08 2018 18:21 mahrgell wrote:
Meanwhile Austria is pushing their initiative to hand out the Austrian citizenship to the German speaking population in South Tyrol.
Somehow the Italians don't appreciate this. But they are always grumpy when it comes to European unity!
The question is: Should Germany give Austria a guarantee, that we will assist them in whatever they do or not? Also could we give German passports to the population of Alsace Lorraine?
Maybe you should just dish out German passports to all of Austria and call it the "joining"?
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Denmark to the river Eider!
In other news: The Swedish election is turning into more and more of a farcè. Should be interesting to see how they are going to form a government if the polls are even close to correct.
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On September 08 2018 18:21 mahrgell wrote:
Meanwhile Austria is pushing their initiative to hand out the Austrian citizenship to the German speaking population in South Tyrol.
Somehow the Italians don't appreciate this. But they are always grumpy when it comes to European unity!
The question is: Should Germany give Austria a guarantee, that we will assist them in whatever they do or not? Also could we give German passports to the population of Alsace Lorraine?
I don't see how that's a big deal. Lots of Germans living in Silesia received German citizenship and nobody serious in Poland considered that an act of hostility from Germany.
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On September 08 2018 19:36 Ghostcom wrote:
Denmark to the river Eider!
In other news: The Swedish election is turning into more and more of a farcè. Should be interesting to see how they are going to form a government if the polls are even close to correct.
It will be interesting for sure. The two options I can see is the Conservatives and Christian Democrats seek support from the brownish Sweden Democrats, or a coalition between the Social Democrats, Liberals, Center and Greens. No matter what the result is though, it will be chaos tomorrow night.
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On September 08 2018 20:34 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 19:36 Ghostcom wrote:
Denmark to the river Eider!
In other news: The Swedish election is turning into more and more of a farcè. Should be interesting to see how they are going to form a government if the polls are even close to correct. It will be interesting for sure. The two options I can see is the Conservatives and Christian Democrats seek support from the brownish Sweden Democrats, or a coalition between the Social Democrats, Liberals, Center and Greens. No matter what the result is though, it will be chaos tomorrow night.
A likely result is also a minority government. Seems most reasonable to me based on the polling.
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On September 08 2018 20:18 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 18:21 mahrgell wrote:
Meanwhile Austria is pushing their initiative to hand out the Austrian citizenship to the German speaking population in South Tyrol.
Somehow the Italians don't appreciate this. But they are always grumpy when it comes to European unity!
The question is: Should Germany give Austria a guarantee, that we will assist them in whatever they do or not? Also could we give German passports to the population of Alsace Lorraine? I don't see how that's a big deal. Lots of Germans living in Silesia received German citizenship and nobody serious in Poland considered that an act of hostility from Germany.
Not sure how it's happening in Silesia. If it's like how South Americans request Portuguese/Spanish/German/Italian citizenship based on ancestry, then it seems fine. But the Austrian proposal, paraphrased, is: "oh, you live in South Tirol. Did you know that used to be part of our magnificent empire? Would you like an Austrian passport? No? Well, just in case, know that we'll gladly give you one. I'll just leave it on your doorstep!"
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On September 09 2018 02:32 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 20:18 Sent. wrote:On September 08 2018 18:21 mahrgell wrote:
Meanwhile Austria is pushing their initiative to hand out the Austrian citizenship to the German speaking population in South Tyrol.
Somehow the Italians don't appreciate this. But they are always grumpy when it comes to European unity!
The question is: Should Germany give Austria a guarantee, that we will assist them in whatever they do or not? Also could we give German passports to the population of Alsace Lorraine? I don't see how that's a big deal. Lots of Germans living in Silesia received German citizenship and nobody serious in Poland considered that an act of hostility from Germany. Not sure how it's happening in Silesia. If it's like how South Americans request Portuguese/Spanish/German/Italian citizenship based on ancestry, then it seems fine. But the Austrian proposal, paraphrased, is: "oh, you live in South Tirol. Did you know that used to be part of our magnificent empire? Would you like an Austrian passport? No? Well, just in case, know that we'll gladly give you one. I'll just leave it on your doorstep!"
Actually they dont know how to do it properly. The idea is to only give it those people of the German- and Ladin-speaking protectorate. But they don't know how to identify them.
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On September 08 2018 05:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 04:17 Sermokala wrote:
Wait the Vatican is a fascist foreign power? How many divisions does the pope command?
Appealing to religious leaders for guidance on an issue by a party claiming religious values doesn't sound that out of place to me. is Europe really this hesitant to have anything to do with the church after the scandals? The EU nations have a different relationship to the Vatican than the US does. To the US, its that funny part of Europe where then old man in the hat lives and that protects child abusers. We lack the couple centuries of political interference. The Vatican was on a centuries long campaign to make secular governments seem like the greatest idea ever, though they didn't know it.
No, that's pretty much the same why the Vatican is viewed, at least in UK, just like the US, and probably all of the majority protestant countries. It wasn't that long ago that the Pope decided that Protestants weren't heretics. Still it's extremely odd even in modern Catholic countries to defer national matters to the catholic church in actuality. There is absolutely no reason why even a notionally religious political party would defer to religious leaders in the modern European secular state. At least not since say the 1850s. I can't even think of a time when a government on the British Isles would appeal to religious leaders for guidance on an issue. Last time was, must have been around the time of the crusades, that's how bizarre it would be; don't know why Sermakola think that wouldn't be out of place. Doubly odd, considering that Austria isn't even that religious in the first place.
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Elections incoming in Sweden! Another European country is getting a big far-right anti imigration party, and this one even has a Nazi past! The Swedish TV just gave them a gift by distancing themselves from a statement by their leader during a debate. The statement was something like "immigrants don't get jobs because they are not Swedish and don't fit in our society." The host called the statement "deeply generalizing." The common opinion seems to be that she should rather have left the critizism to the other party leaders. The far right loves being the victim...
How big will the Swedish Democrats party be, and will the other parties be able to form a stable gorvernment refusing to cooperate with them?
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On September 08 2018 04:59 Sermokala wrote:
I mean the vatican is about as democratic as the US with the cardinals being the electors.
Is this sarcasm I have trouble telling in this thread
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Far right getting 19.2 % in Sweden of all countries is something interesting but it looks like Swedes are going to have their own grand coalition soon.
Swedes have voted in what's been tipped as Sweden's most important election in decades. Exit polls show the center-left bloc with a lead but the far-right Sweden Democrats have made significant gains. - An exit poll by Sweden's SVT public broadcaster projects the center-left Social Democrats are in first place with 26.2 percent of the vote. The far-right Sweden Democrats (SD) — a party with neo-Nazi roots — is in second place with 19.2 percent, and the Moderates at 17.8 percent, according to the poll. The final results are expected before midnight (2200 UTC). - Sweden's left-wing governing bloc, made up of the Social Democrats and Left Party is neck-and-neck with the four-party center-right Alliance. That means some form of "grand coalition" between the center-left and the Alliance may be necessary, unless one of the groups agrees to govern with the Sweden Democrats. - Polling ended at 8:00 pm (1800 UTC) and, although the final results expected before midnight (2200 UTC), it may take weeks before a new government emerges from the expected political gridlock. https://www.dw.com/en/sweden-elections-2018-live-updates/a-45408590
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Norway28866 Posts
hm two different exit polls. SVT has them at 19.2, TV4 has 16.3. exit polls usually don't differ that much.
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On September 10 2018 03:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:
hm two different exit polls. SVT has them at 19.2, TV4 has 16.3. exit polls usually don't differ that much.
SVT is usually more accurate according to the Guardian, take that as you will. The Left party (according to the SVT poll) has also made quite significant gains compared with their 2014, though it's hard to really say what the implications of this are.
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How can a former neo nazi party get 19% votes in Scandinavia? This is highly depressing.
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I'm not sure why people are even surprised anymore. This has happened in nearly every western country. There's a solid 10-20% minority of people who are on the far right.
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On September 10 2018 04:02 Biff The Understudy wrote:
How can a former neo nazi party get 19% votes in Scandinavia? This is highly depressing.
Sweden was never part of WW2, and colaborated with both sides as they found it most beneficial. The Sweden Democrats party has also worked hard to rebrand themselves, and another much more obviously racist far right party has helped them look more appealing. Politically, the party is not that different from their sister populist right parties in Norway (The Progress party) and Denmark (Danish People's party.) Those have had conisderable political influence for years, and in Norway, they are in the government for their 2nd term.
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So 80% didnt vote for those lunatics. Let's be sure to make it the future storyline that it is them vs everyone else, so that we can soon be approaching a scenario in which they actually "get a say" (i.e. some "moderate" right-wing party will form a coalition with them).
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Norway28866 Posts
many different reasons. One is that they've successfully distanced themselves from their nazi past. Another is that a lot of swedes became disillusioned with their immigration policies and all the 'mainstream' parties saying 'it's fine' while sweden democrats were saying it's not fine, for the mainstream parties to change to 'okay it's not fine' and implementing quite some of SD's policies (without the rhetoric, though). Or that's what I've heard anyway.
Third partial explanation I read (although pundits seemed to disagree a bit on this) is that it's not just immigration, but that the financial crisis hit sweden quite hard and increased the divide between people with education and ones without, once again with 'elites' not really acknowledging the problems, and the 'moderate' right wing government making changes to labor environment that made people's jobs less safe.. So kind of the same story as you see everywhere else.
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EPT
