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On March 20 2014 18:18 FFW_Rude wrote:
The "sane thing article" was really interesting.
Do we know if Australia ships/planes/chopper are already onroute for the debris that they seemed to have found ?
It would mean that the plane and people are lost so in a sense... I hope they won't find anything.
What i'm more concerned is in the article that flight data is not recorded for more than a few hours. So they might not get data from all of the duration of flight.
The awesome aussies have send several planes to track the debris. They should be approximately at the site atm. A ship should also be in the vicinity. The plane is expected to identify the pieces and give the coordinates to the ship. The ship should be equipped to carry the piece to land.
Anyway we have to make a distinction here. There are two parts to the black box:
"Flight Data Recorder" is the part where raw data from a lot of different sensors in the plane gets stored. It can usually hold more than 17 hours of data, so it should be perfectly fine and useful.
"Cockpit Voice Recorder" is the part where the sounds in the cockpit is recorded. That is usually only available for what is happening less than two hours before the crash.
The FDR is going to be instrumental for finding out what happened. The CVR would, given the situation, be expected to only hold more or less ambient noices even though that in itself can be useful.
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Ah yes i wasn't sure about what had the lenghty records and the low one.
CVR should be really important in this because we should know what pilots did. (or didn't). But yes the FDR is the usefull box here.
Thx for claryfying. I always mix english terms
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Why does the cockpit recorder only have 2 hours?
Surely we're past the point where it's a problem to store like an extra 5 Mb of data....
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Satellite image data are from sunday. Has Australia wasted enough time on confirmation for the debris to have sunk? First plane has returned with no luck finding anything...
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On March 20 2014 14:14 Antisocialmunky wrote:
The Australians announced it so it might not actually be recanted in an hour!
Sounds like you don't know anything about this Tony Abbott government! 
I don't know if I hope it is true or not. It would give closure to a lot of people, but it would be very saddening at the same time.
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On March 20 2014 20:23 Belisarius wrote:
Why does the cockpit recorder only have 2 hours?
Surely we're past the point where it's a problem to store like an extra 5 Mb of data....
You need a device that can record and not die to anything and "breath" underwater. I don't think it's that easy.
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So, what I dont get is: If there was an hourly ping at 8.11 which gives us those arcs as possible locations, where are the reports of the 7.11, 6.11, 5.11, etc pings? Shouldnt those pings, while maybe not give a 100% accurate location, at the very least make it easier to do educated guesses? There should have been another 5 pings between its last location on military radar and that 8.11 ping. So follow the possible locations each ping gives and you should be able to guess?
As of now, that 8.11 ping seems to be taken out of context.
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On March 20 2014 20:59 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 20:23 Belisarius wrote:
Why does the cockpit recorder only have 2 hours?
Surely we're past the point where it's a problem to store like an extra 5 Mb of data.... You need a device that can record and not die to anything and "breath" underwater. I don't think it's that easy.
Building a device with 25h record duration is not difficult at all.
Main reason the current duration is 30min to 2h today is that flight regulations require 30min. Those 30min were initially decided because it was the length of a tape loop in the first designs 50 years ago. Regulation wasn't changed since because the last 30min are deemed sufficient to understand the crash itself. Providers do not offer more in standard VCR systems because it would be marginally more expensive without a commercial argument to back it up.
The last modification proposed for those recording systems was a shift to camera + voice recording over the duration of the flight. This was rejected by the pilots.
Last point, the 777 was designed in 1993. Inertia between subcontractor (honeywell)/constructor (boeing)/airline would probably create a delay of 5 years before all planes were equiped (in case of a regulation change).
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What if that isnt the plane their looking for? How weird would that be :o
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That was my thought as well. How do we know it's the right plane? There has to be a lot of crap floating in the ocean. Also if it's floating, wouldn't the current have carried it east by now?
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On March 20 2014 22:24 Kreb wrote:
So, what I dont get is: If there was an hourly ping at 8.11 which gives us those arcs as possible locations, where are the reports of the 7.11, 6.11, 5.11, etc pings? Shouldnt those pings, while maybe not give a 100% accurate location, at the very least make it easier to do educated guesses? There should have been another 5 pings between its last location on military radar and that 8.11 ping. So follow the possible locations each ping gives and you should be able to guess?
As of now, that 8.11 ping seems to be taken out of context.
This is a good question, I also thought about it. Also, since they know the 8:11 was the last ping, it means they must have the other pings as well. Otherwise they wouldn't be sure they didn't receive the 9:11 ping. Hopefully it's not that case that satellite just overrides the last ping when new is received?
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On March 20 2014 22:39 TheFish7 wrote:
That was my thought as well. How do we know it's the right plane? There has to be a lot of crap floating in the ocean. Also if it's floating, wouldn't the current have carried it east by now?
They mentioned already several times - they are not sure what it is. They believe it's a good chance It is a part of the plane. But it might be just some trash floating, we don't know. They warned that it is a careful hope only.
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On March 20 2014 22:42 arbiter_md wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 22:24 Kreb wrote:
So, what I dont get is: If there was an hourly ping at 8.11 which gives us those arcs as possible locations, where are the reports of the 7.11, 6.11, 5.11, etc pings? Shouldnt those pings, while maybe not give a 100% accurate location, at the very least make it easier to do educated guesses? There should have been another 5 pings between its last location on military radar and that 8.11 ping. So follow the possible locations each ping gives and you should be able to guess?
As of now, that 8.11 ping seems to be taken out of context. This is a good question, I also thought about it. Also, since they know the 8:11 was the last ping, it means they must have the other pings as well. Otherwise they wouldn't be sure they didn't receive the 9:11 ping. Hopefully it's not that case that satellite just overrides the last ping when new is received?
Now you could just look at the last page of this thread, and you would see the results of all those pings, all made into a nice map...
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On March 20 2014 22:51 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 22:42 arbiter_md wrote:On March 20 2014 22:24 Kreb wrote:
So, what I dont get is: If there was an hourly ping at 8.11 which gives us those arcs as possible locations, where are the reports of the 7.11, 6.11, 5.11, etc pings? Shouldnt those pings, while maybe not give a 100% accurate location, at the very least make it easier to do educated guesses? There should have been another 5 pings between its last location on military radar and that 8.11 ping. So follow the possible locations each ping gives and you should be able to guess?
As of now, that 8.11 ping seems to be taken out of context. This is a good question, I also thought about it. Also, since they know the 8:11 was the last ping, it means they must have the other pings as well. Otherwise they wouldn't be sure they didn't receive the 9:11 ping. Hopefully it's not that case that satellite just overrides the last ping when new is received? Now you could just look at the last page of this thread, and you would see the results of all those pings, all made into a nice map...
Thanks, now the strange thing is the lines for other hours are much shorter than the lines for 8:11.
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On March 20 2014 22:42 arbiter_md wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 22:24 Kreb wrote:
So, what I dont get is: If there was an hourly ping at 8.11 which gives us those arcs as possible locations, where are the reports of the 7.11, 6.11, 5.11, etc pings? Shouldnt those pings, while maybe not give a 100% accurate location, at the very least make it easier to do educated guesses? There should have been another 5 pings between its last location on military radar and that 8.11 ping. So follow the possible locations each ping gives and you should be able to guess?
As of now, that 8.11 ping seems to be taken out of context. This is a good question, I also thought about it. Also, since they know the 8:11 was the last ping, it means they must have the other pings as well. Otherwise they wouldn't be sure they didn't receive the 9:11 ping. Hopefully it's not that case that satellite just overrides the last ping when new is received?
The value (distance to satellite) difference between contact points will be constant (either increasing or decreasing) assuming airplane travel at a constant speed. With that info, we know if it's getting closer or further away at angle estimate based on an assumed speed. However, because there is only one point of reference, there is no way of telling which direction it's coming from or traveling at. That's how we end up with those mirroring arcs.
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What I have heard is that the area is part of/close to a shipping lane. It happens fairly often that containers drop from a ship. The Indian Ocean is extremely hostile so it wouldn't be too surprising if a lot of containers are floating around there. However, the longest intermodal containers are about 17 meters long, while the standard should be about 12x2.5x2.5 meters.
If it is that kind of junk or actually part of the plane... Well, I guess we will find out.
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All we can really do is hope the objects are still there and not something filled with Nikes.
These pieces seem pretty waterlogged so they might have sunk already. Modern aircraft use a honeycomb composite that can trap air. The piece itself does not float without the air and the air will leak out eventually :\ They are probably looking for just anything man made at this point. The Norwegian ship will be invaluable for this since it can keep station.
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On March 20 2014 22:26 Oshuy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 20:59 FFW_Rude wrote:On March 20 2014 20:23 Belisarius wrote:
Why does the cockpit recorder only have 2 hours?
Surely we're past the point where it's a problem to store like an extra 5 Mb of data.... You need a device that can record and not die to anything and "breath" underwater. I don't think it's that easy. Building a device with 25h record duration is not difficult at all. Main reason the current duration is 30min to 2h today is that flight regulations require 30min. Those 30min were initially decided because it was the length of a tape loop in the first designs 50 years ago. Regulation wasn't changed since because the last 30min are deemed sufficient to understand the crash itself. Providers do not offer more in standard VCR systems because it would be marginally more expensive without a commercial argument to back it up. The last modification proposed for those recording systems was a shift to camera + voice recording over the duration of the flight. This was rejected by the pilots. Last point, the 777 was designed in 1993. Inertia between subcontractor (honeywell)/constructor (boeing)/airline would probably create a delay of 5 years before all planes were equiped (in case of a regulation change).
Oh ok. I really thought there was more to it. Thanks for the clarification.
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EPT
