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Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 Missing - Page 29

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Chewits
Profile Joined September 2006
Northern Ireland1200 Posts
March 19 2014 14:43 GMT
#561
On March 19 2014 23:07 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Sorry if this is a repost, it's new to me:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/22048564/student-claims-to-have-spotted-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-on-satellite/

What an eerie picture if true.
[image loading]


Article does not say where the plane was spotted on satellite.
Whats the altitude?
arbiter_md
Profile Joined February 2008
Moldova1219 Posts
March 19 2014 14:52 GMT
#562
So many planes are found lately, it become kinda funny if ignoring the drama of people from the flight. I really hope they will find something real in near future. Otherwise we will be back on this topic every time a new picture of a plane appears on internet.
The copyright of this post belongs solely to me. Nobody else, not teamliquid, not greetech and not even blizzard have any share of this copyright. You can copy, distribute, use in commercial purposes the content of this post or parts of it freely.
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15325 Posts
March 19 2014 14:59 GMT
#563
What if it is just a viral marketing campaign for a Lost remake?!?!
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Nuithari
Profile Joined December 2010
Belgium737 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-19 15:10:21
March 19 2014 15:09 GMT
#564
Would be epic ^^*

Seems the Pilot's simulator data from a month before went missing: NYTimes article

The Malaysian authorities say some data was deleted from a flight simulator that one of the pilots of the missing Malaysia Airlines jet had built in his home, and they have turned to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for help in recovering the data, in the hope that it will provide some clue to what happened to the plane.
"Marineking's greatest strength is his enjoyment of the game" -Grubby
Chewits
Profile Joined September 2006
Northern Ireland1200 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-19 15:22:52
March 19 2014 15:10 GMT
#565
On March 19 2014 23:43 Chewits wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2014 23:07 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Sorry if this is a repost, it's new to me:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/22048564/student-claims-to-have-spotted-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-on-satellite/

What an eerie picture if true.
[image loading]


Article does not say where the plane was spotted on satellite.


Well i found that image on Tomnod. It was in South Andaman Island, approx 10km east of Waandoor and 10km south of Port Blair.

Unfort I cannot seem to find any info on when it was acutally taken. I guess DigitalGlobe has this info. If we knew the timestamp of the image, you could correlate it with flight paths to see if it is just another plane..
Whats the altitude?
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
March 19 2014 15:24 GMT
#566
On March 19 2014 23:20 Scarecrow wrote:
"According to a local newspaper, residents of a remote island in the Maldives, Kuda Huvadhoo, spotted a plane at 6:15 a.m. local time on March 8 that could have been the missing Malaysia Airlines 370. Eyewitnesses cited by the paper said they saw "a jumbo jet," white with red stripes across it, flying low and very loudly. The description of a big airplane in those colors is consistent with the Malaysian Boeing 777."

Well if this is true it significantly narrows the search area. It's also a major coincidence that 3 of the 4 landings on the captain's flight simulator were relatively close in the Maldives, India and Sri Lanka.

It is impossible. 6:15 local time is 9:15 Kuala Lumpur time. that would give the plane a little more than an hour to fly app. 3000 km. from the center of the ping-area. That doesn't seem believable if the satellite data are correct.

Also, the Maldives authorities have investigated and discounted it as a likely possibility.
Repeat before me
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
March 19 2014 15:53 GMT
#567
On March 20 2014 00:24 radiatoren wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2014 23:20 Scarecrow wrote:
"According to a local newspaper, residents of a remote island in the Maldives, Kuda Huvadhoo, spotted a plane at 6:15 a.m. local time on March 8 that could have been the missing Malaysia Airlines 370. Eyewitnesses cited by the paper said they saw "a jumbo jet," white with red stripes across it, flying low and very loudly. The description of a big airplane in those colors is consistent with the Malaysian Boeing 777."

Well if this is true it significantly narrows the search area. It's also a major coincidence that 3 of the 4 landings on the captain's flight simulator were relatively close in the Maldives, India and Sri Lanka.

It is impossible. 6:15 local time is 9:15 Kuala Lumpur time. that would give the plane a little more than an hour to fly app. 3000 km. from the center of the ping-area. That doesn't seem believable if the satellite data are correct.

Also, the Maldives authorities have investigated and discounted it as a likely possibility.

"The reported sighting over the Maldives coincides with the time line well,"

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing-malaysia-airlines-plane-possible-mh370-sighting-as-maldives-residents-report-lowflying-jumbo-20140319-hvkb0.html#ixzz2wQM9Vsez

I doubt major newspapers would run this story if it could be so easily debunked by calculating time and distance (you probably confused the times). I won't attempt to do the maths because I trust those in the know to do it better than myself.

The Maldives military said they detected nothing but that doesn't contradict the sighting. A plane flying that low wouldn't necessarily be picked up on radar.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
Chewits
Profile Joined September 2006
Northern Ireland1200 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-19 16:02:20
March 19 2014 16:01 GMT
#568
Interesting article

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

The left turn is the key here. Zaharie Ahmad Shah1 was a very experienced senior captain with 18,000 hours of flight time. We old pilots were drilled to know what is the closest airport of safe harbor while in cruise. Airports behind us, airports abeam us, and airports ahead of us. They’re always in our head. Always. If something happens, you don’t want to be thinking about what are you going to do–you already know what you are going to do. When I saw that left turn with a direct heading, I instinctively knew he was heading for an airport. He was taking a direct route to Palau Langkawi, a 13,000-foot airstrip with an approach over water and no obstacles. The captain did not turn back to Kuala Lampur because he knew he had 8,000-foot ridges to cross. He knew the terrain was friendlier toward Langkawi, which also was closer.


Makes alot of sense.
Whats the altitude?
FFW_Rude
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France10201 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-19 16:13:58
March 19 2014 16:08 GMT
#569
On March 19 2014 23:43 Chewits wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2014 23:07 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Sorry if this is a repost, it's new to me:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/22048564/student-claims-to-have-spotted-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-on-satellite/

What an eerie picture if true.
[image loading]


Article does not say where the plane was spotted on satellite.


We should see the reactors on a boeing 777 from a top view. So.. i'm not convinced. They really are visible
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


EDIT : i took this picture => http://www.kopeikingallery.com/media/gallery/Air France Boeing 777-400ER.jpg
From a boeing 777 (i don't know if it's the same model) and tried to superpose it with the satelite picture. It's a bottom view (not a top one)

=>

[image loading]
#1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".
gruff
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden2276 Posts
March 19 2014 17:20 GMT
#570
On March 19 2014 20:07 vizuaLize wrote:
Just wondering, how did this become so massive?

Wasn't the big headline "Putin" 2 weeks ago?

EDIT: sorry if i sound offensive, i just don't follow the news

The news is still full of Putin headlines.
HelpMeGetBetter
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States764 Posts
March 19 2014 17:41 GMT
#571
This sounds like the most realistic scenario to me:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/22055737/new-theory-suggests-plane-flew-on-autopilot/
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
March 19 2014 17:49 GMT
#572
On March 19 2014 23:59 zatic wrote:
What if it is just a viral marketing campaign for a Lost remake?!?!


Rodan knocked it out if the sky for the new Godzilla movie.
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
March 19 2014 19:14 GMT
#573
On March 20 2014 01:01 Chewits wrote:
Interesting article

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

Show nested quote +
The left turn is the key here. Zaharie Ahmad Shah1 was a very experienced senior captain with 18,000 hours of flight time. We old pilots were drilled to know what is the closest airport of safe harbor while in cruise. Airports behind us, airports abeam us, and airports ahead of us. They’re always in our head. Always. If something happens, you don’t want to be thinking about what are you going to do–you already know what you are going to do. When I saw that left turn with a direct heading, I instinctively knew he was heading for an airport. He was taking a direct route to Palau Langkawi, a 13,000-foot airstrip with an approach over water and no obstacles. The captain did not turn back to Kuala Lampur because he knew he had 8,000-foot ridges to cross. He knew the terrain was friendlier toward Langkawi, which also was closer.


Makes alot of sense.

^ That article isn't exactly credible.

1) It ignores the known later positions of the plane (the article was originally posted a week ago or so before new infos about those came out).
2) Even in the event of a fire you don't just pull all plugs and try to fight it. You communicate it to ground control first. A fire, in most cases, doesn't randomly come out of nowhere with zero warning and renders you incapable of communicating anything. I don't recall a single accident in aviation history involving fire where pilots were incapable of communicating it.
3) "Yes, pilots have access to oxygen masks, but this is a no-no with fire." - such a statement is quite frankly bullshit. Smoke? Fire? Oxygen masks on.


On March 20 2014 02:41 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
This sounds like the most realistic scenario to me:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/22055737/new-theory-suggests-plane-flew-on-autopilot/

It's one of those things that aren't impossible, but still unlikely. The common ground for these theories is that it assumes that pilots fell unconscious without any notice at all. That's also something that just doesn't happen unless you start assuming they were poisoned/gassed. The only known case where pilots "randomly" fell unconscious was Helios Flight 522 in which basically the entire cabin was lit up with warning lights and they were talking to ground control about what's going on - they just completely misread what's actually happening.


Basically everything comes back to the complete silence from the plane. This doesn't happen with fires, highjackings or even parts falling off the plane midflight. It's very hard to build a scenario in which a plane just stops communicating without sabotage, natural disaster or the pilots/crew being involved.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Chewits
Profile Joined September 2006
Northern Ireland1200 Posts
March 19 2014 19:17 GMT
#574
On March 20 2014 02:41 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
This sounds like the most realistic scenario to me:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/22055737/new-theory-suggests-plane-flew-on-autopilot/


You should read the article i posted above as to why turning back to Kular Lampar is not what a pilot would have done.


The captain did not turn back to Kuala Lampur because he knew he had 8,000-foot ridges to cross. He knew the terrain was friendlier toward Langkawi, which also was closer


http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/
Whats the altitude?
Chewits
Profile Joined September 2006
Northern Ireland1200 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-19 19:32:17
March 19 2014 19:30 GMT
#575
On March 20 2014 04:14 r.Evo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2014 01:01 Chewits wrote:
Interesting article

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

The left turn is the key here. Zaharie Ahmad Shah1 was a very experienced senior captain with 18,000 hours of flight time. We old pilots were drilled to know what is the closest airport of safe harbor while in cruise. Airports behind us, airports abeam us, and airports ahead of us. They’re always in our head. Always. If something happens, you don’t want to be thinking about what are you going to do–you already know what you are going to do. When I saw that left turn with a direct heading, I instinctively knew he was heading for an airport. He was taking a direct route to Palau Langkawi, a 13,000-foot airstrip with an approach over water and no obstacles. The captain did not turn back to Kuala Lampur because he knew he had 8,000-foot ridges to cross. He knew the terrain was friendlier toward Langkawi, which also was closer.


Makes alot of sense.

^ That article isn't exactly credible.

1) It ignores the known later positions of the plane (the article was originally posted a week ago or so before new infos about those came out).
2) Even in the event of a fire you don't just pull all plugs and try to fight it. You communicate it to ground control first. A fire, in most cases, doesn't randomly come out of nowhere with zero warning and renders you incapable of communicating anything. I don't recall a single accident in aviation history involving fire where pilots were incapable of communicating it.
3) "Yes, pilots have access to oxygen masks, but this is a no-no with fire." - such a statement is quite frankly bullshit. Smoke? Fire? Oxygen masks on.



1) It was posted 16th March. The later positions of the plane? Are you talking about the arc, which doesnt seem to be too accurate? From what I can see that arc crosses the flight path he was talking about in article.
2) We dont know all the details but, there is no reason why the fire or whatever caused a problem somehow damaged all communications.
3) No. If there is a fire on board the aircraft, masks are not deployed, as the production of oxygen may further fuel the fire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_oxygen_system

I am no expert, but it seems alot more credible than you think.
Whats the altitude?
ggrrg
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Bulgaria2716 Posts
March 19 2014 20:45 GMT
#576
On March 20 2014 00:53 Scarecrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2014 00:24 radiatoren wrote:
On March 19 2014 23:20 Scarecrow wrote:
"According to a local newspaper, residents of a remote island in the Maldives, Kuda Huvadhoo, spotted a plane at 6:15 a.m. local time on March 8 that could have been the missing Malaysia Airlines 370. Eyewitnesses cited by the paper said they saw "a jumbo jet," white with red stripes across it, flying low and very loudly. The description of a big airplane in those colors is consistent with the Malaysian Boeing 777."

Well if this is true it significantly narrows the search area. It's also a major coincidence that 3 of the 4 landings on the captain's flight simulator were relatively close in the Maldives, India and Sri Lanka.

It is impossible. 6:15 local time is 9:15 Kuala Lumpur time. that would give the plane a little more than an hour to fly app. 3000 km. from the center of the ping-area. That doesn't seem believable if the satellite data are correct.

Also, the Maldives authorities have investigated and discounted it as a likely possibility.

"The reported sighting over the Maldives coincides with the time line well,"

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing-malaysia-airlines-plane-possible-mh370-sighting-as-maldives-residents-report-lowflying-jumbo-20140319-hvkb0.html#ixzz2wQM9Vsez

I doubt major newspapers would run this story if it could be so easily debunked by calculating time and distance (you probably confused the times). I won't attempt to do the maths because I trust those in the know to do it better than myself.

The Maldives military said they detected nothing but that doesn't contradict the sighting. A plane flying that low wouldn't necessarily be picked up on radar.


You really should not believe everything you read...
Also, it really is not that hard to calculate the time zone conversion
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converted.html?iso=20140308T0615&p1=715&p2=122
Then you can look up the approximate position of the plane according to the last ping received by the satellite at 8:11 am Kuala Lumpur time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370#Estimated_route
With a short look at google maps you will instantly see that in fact the plane would have needed to travel about 3000 km in one hour for the alleged sighting to be true.
Ergo, it is not, unless some of the information provided by the authorities is extremely wrong.
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
March 19 2014 21:13 GMT
#577
On March 20 2014 04:30 Chewits wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2014 04:14 r.Evo wrote:
On March 20 2014 01:01 Chewits wrote:
Interesting article

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

The left turn is the key here. Zaharie Ahmad Shah1 was a very experienced senior captain with 18,000 hours of flight time. We old pilots were drilled to know what is the closest airport of safe harbor while in cruise. Airports behind us, airports abeam us, and airports ahead of us. They’re always in our head. Always. If something happens, you don’t want to be thinking about what are you going to do–you already know what you are going to do. When I saw that left turn with a direct heading, I instinctively knew he was heading for an airport. He was taking a direct route to Palau Langkawi, a 13,000-foot airstrip with an approach over water and no obstacles. The captain did not turn back to Kuala Lampur because he knew he had 8,000-foot ridges to cross. He knew the terrain was friendlier toward Langkawi, which also was closer.


Makes alot of sense.

^ That article isn't exactly credible.

1) It ignores the known later positions of the plane (the article was originally posted a week ago or so before new infos about those came out).
2) Even in the event of a fire you don't just pull all plugs and try to fight it. You communicate it to ground control first. A fire, in most cases, doesn't randomly come out of nowhere with zero warning and renders you incapable of communicating anything. I don't recall a single accident in aviation history involving fire where pilots were incapable of communicating it.
3) "Yes, pilots have access to oxygen masks, but this is a no-no with fire." - such a statement is quite frankly bullshit. Smoke? Fire? Oxygen masks on.



1) It was posted 16th March. The later positions of the plane? Are you talking about the arc, which doesnt seem to be too accurate? From what I can see that arc crosses the flight path he was talking about in article.
2) We dont know all the details but, there is no reason why the fire or whatever caused a problem somehow damaged all communications.
3) No. If there is a fire on board the aircraft, masks are not deployed, as the production of oxygen may further fuel the fire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_oxygen_system

I am no expert, but it seems alot more credible than you think.

You linked an article about oxygen masks for passengers. In the event of smoke or even fire in the cockpit it's masks on. On top of that if a fire or any accident doesn't damage all communication one of the pilots will communicate it to ATC.

Here and here are examples of plane crashes as the result of fires. In both cases the pilots were communicating what's going on. I don't know of any single aviation incident where a fire (obviously not from an explosion) straight up disabled communications and/or the crew was incapable of communicating it - if you do, please share.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-19 21:26:06
March 19 2014 21:24 GMT
#578
Assuming the facts we're presented with are true, that the plane was flying west, had ascended at one point to 45,000 feet and then back down to 23,000 feet, and that the plane was flying for 6+ hours after radar contact was lost...

The only way that the catastrophic failure thing makes any sense is if, this failure first took out communications on the plane, and then incapacitated/killed the pilots and all of the passengers, but then the plane kept flying on auto pilot after all this went down. The only other possibility is if the controls went out, but somehow auto pilot did not, essentially dooming everyone on board to go down with the ship...

The highjacking scenario keeps looking more and more likely, this is the scenario that the Malaysians have suggested from the very beginning.

There is a part of me that believes this plane is stashed somewhere with the intent to refuel it and load it up with explosives, but maybe that part of me is the 14 year old whose first day of high school was 9/11/2001 and I'm being paranoid.
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-19 22:13:32
March 19 2014 22:12 GMT
#579
The OP should update this thread with a sanity check like what Rcair1 has done in Airliners.net. It consists of professional (as in pilots and technicians who know the technical and operation bits as opposed to 'experts' on CNN that just read up on these things) analysis, opinions and up to date facts.

The original can be found at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/6031271/ and is the 64th comment. I would encourage you all to read it (at the link) if you don't want to be confused by the sad state of mass media these days.

Here is a crappy copy/paste:

Sanity Check - 3/19/2014 15:00Z
There is (will be) a link to this post in my profile under "homepage"

Format updates.
Thanks to those to IM'd me about the length and format. The consensus was most data, delete/simplify old and but highlight changes.
I've implemented this change in this report.
New/Changes lines will have this background color. All changes are relative to the previous Sanity Check.
Minor wording/grammar/spelling changes are NOT highlighted.
When I simplified/consolidated a section - I noted it but did not mark the deletions.

3/19/2014 15:00Z update since last Sanity Check.
• The facts have not changed much. The a/c has not been found.
• I've tried to be as factually accurate as I can - but I'm not an expert in each system - so if there factual errors please advise.
• Significant updates to ADS-C/Way-points/FMS Programing.
• Update on Maldives.
• Simplified/consolidates some sections that were redundant.

First a synopsis (dropped some old 'breaking news' items)
• The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing
• The last ACARS transmission was 01:07 local.
• Reports surfaced yesterday that the ship either:
• Turned before the last voice transmission - or-
• Had new way-points entered before the last voice transmission.
• See ADS-C/FMS/Way-points sections.
• The last comms were "All right, good night" transmitted to Malaysia at hand-off to Vietnam control. Vietnam was not contacted. It has been reported it was the First Officer's voice.
• NOTE: Saying "good night" or "so long" or "see you" is very common for hand-offs.
• The transponder stopped transmitting at 1:21 - loss of secondary radar.
• There are reports of a climb to 45K, uneven descent and some changes in altitude. Since this is based on primary radar - altitude data is somewhat uncertain. The last has been reported as 29,500ft but that seems in dispute.
• The validity of the 45K reports is being questioned.
• There are subsequent primary radar returns west over Malacca Strait and then north west. Since it is primarily radar - a reflection - it does NOT identify the a/c, however it has been correlated with SATCOM pings so confidence is high that the returns are from MH370
• SATCOM system pings continued for 7+ (last ping at 08:11 local) hrs after LOS (loss of signal)
• SATCOM pings do not locate the aircraft but based on correlation to signal strength there are two loci that indication aircraft distance from the Satellite.
• These are not paths and I have changed my language to reflect that. They represent a distance from the satellite.
• Corridor one is north over Andaman Sea, Bay of Bengal as far as Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and is consistent with primary radar.
• Corridor two is south over the India Ocean west of Australia. We've had no reports of radar signals in that area.
• The last SATCOM ping was at 8:11 am Malaysian time. At that time it would be dark on the north radius and light over the south radius.
• SATCOM pings are hourly - so the 8:11 ping could be up to 1 hour before the aircraft stopped 'pinging'.
• We have no ELT signal detected.
• While authorities (Malaysian) have not confirmed this is a hijacking or purposeful event - it is believed that is highly likely by most, however, motivation is unknown.
• Debris reported by Greek oil tanker has already been reported as not relevant.
• Recent reports attributed to the FBI that the plane 'could have landed' and sent a satellite signal from the ground appear to be just confirming what we already knew - that the SATCOM pings could come from an a/c in flight, or powered up on the ground.
• There have been no reports that a Rolls Royce EH report was sent upon landing.
• Recent report from the Maldives (island Kuda Huvadhoo) of a low flying aircraft at 6:15am on the 8th. Reported as not valid..

Time-line (from CNN)
• 1.07 am - Last ACARS transmission.
• 1.19 am - Last verbal communication "All right, good night" from the plane; believed to be the co-pilot
• 1.21 am - Transponder stopped transmitting (turned off or failed)
• 1.30 am - Civilian (primary) radar lost contact
• 1.37 am - Expected ACARS transmission; not received
• 2.15 am - Last military primary radar contact
• 8.11 am - Last (hourly) satellite handshake


ACARS
• Some deletions in this section to simplify..
• ACARS is an automated aircraft communication system that transmits a/c information, including navigation, operations, maintenance, etc to ATC and maintenance facilities.
• ACARS is NOT a flight system - it is not needed for safe flight.
• ACARS is a subscription service and costs money. All indications are the MH370 was subscribed only to engine health monitoring and data from that is sent to Rolls Royce.
• This last fact (only EHM) is somewhat questions because of 3/18 reports of new way-points being programmed. This would require ADS-C
• ACARS communicates via VHF, HF or SATCOM. The communications channel depends on availability and is independent of the ACARS.
• ACARS can be instructed not to use SATCOM, HF or VHF from the Cockpit. This would effectively stop ACARS from sending data. Access to the EE bay is not required.
• The last ACARS transmission was at 1:07. The next was expected at 1:37 and was not received. This means ACARS communication was disabled between those times. This could be action by the flight-deck crew or system failure.

ACARS data from MH370
• The ACARS system sent 2 engine health reports to Rolls Royce, both prior to the LOS event.
• The Rolls Royce page indicates that a 'snapshot' of engine data would be sent at: takeoff, climb, cruise and landing. We know 2 ACARS Engine Health reports were received, consistent with the 1st two.
• The last engine health report was received at 1:07am. The next was expected at 1:37 am and was not received. This indicates that the transmission of ACARS data was disabled between 1:07 and 1:37, but not when during that period.
• The Engine Health report received prior to LOS had 'interesting' altitude data/fluctuations including 40K drop in a minute. That data is suspect.
• There seems to be some indication that ADS-C data with way-point information was included in the last ACARS report.
• This also seems to have been dismissed by the Malaysian authorityies today (!!)

ADS-C Tutorial (short).
• ADS-C stands for Aircraft Dependent Surveillance - Contract.
• The "Dependent" is because it "depends" on the aircraft taking action - as opposed to "independent" like radar..
• Contract means there must be a "contract" or "agreement" set up by the controllers an/or crew to send information.
• ADS-C is not required to be used.
• ADS-C can be programed to report periodically, on demand, on event. It can be initiated by the crew in an emergency.
• Various data groups can be sent. The one relevant to this discussion is the Predicted Route Group which includes ETA, altitude, lat/long at next way-point and next+1 way-point.
• Prior to 3/18 we had no information that ADS-C was being used, however on 3/18 it was reported that we "know" that new way-points were entered in the FMS prior to LOS.
• The only way we know of for this information to be available to authorities is if the ACAR's report at 1:07 included the "Predicted Route Group."
• ADS-C is transmitted via ACARS which can use SATCOM, VHF or HF.
• ADS-C does not transmit via transponder (thanks for that correction)
• A good tutorial on ADS-C is available at http://prezi.com/pcuvxhcklsda/ads-c-overview/

Way-point Entry Data.
• On 3/18 authorities reported that new way-points had been entered into the a/c FMS BEFORE the last communication at 1:19.
• This information could only be provided by ADS-C in the 1:07 ACARS report.
• It was also reported that the aircraft had already turned off course prior to 1:19.
• That seems inconsistent with secondary radar data which did not show a course change.
• Opinion: I believe "experts" are confusing new way-points being programed and executed.
• This is consistent with statements by several "experts" who seem to be really "experts"
• It was noted that pilots sometimes program way-points but never execute (fly to them).
• After take-off way-points are changed in the cockpit. Experts say non-pilots can't do it, but, in fact, it is not hard and many 'simulator' people do it all the time.
• Summary:
• Reports are that new way-points (off course) were added to the FMS after takeoff (or perhaps just before).
• This information would come from ADS-C in the last ACARS report at 1:07.
• This requires flight deck access pointing at either the crew or a breech of cockpit security.
• All of this data seems to be based on the same NYT report that is being repeated.
• We have not heard if the "new" way-points match those reported earlier in the primary radar track.

Way-point Tracks
• A series of way-points reported that match the primary radar tracks in/near Malacca Strait.
• These way-points line up with the direction indicated by the primary radar returns and Inmarsat data to the north.
• While many believe the aircraft was under control - we cannot conclude if these way-point were used, or just coincidentally along the path.
• A 777 can be programed to follow a series of way-point automatically - this is normal operating procedure and a 777 pilot would need no extra practice/training to do it. (Relevant to pilot flight simulator ownership)

SATCOM
• SATCOM is a communications channel - Satellite Communications. It is a radio system that uses satellites to communicate various information.
• SATCOM is not ACARS - it is one of the channels ACARS can use.
• The SATCOM system on MH370 was connecting to Inmarsat 3 satellites. In the area covered, the only satellite with coverage is IOR.
Big version: Width: 720 Height: 516 File size: 199kb
• Since only 1 satellite has coverage, no triangulation is possible. All that can be determined is distance from the satellite. This has been used to define 2 potential loci were the a/c could have been.
• North Corridor
Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 768 File size: 114kb
.
• South Corridor
Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 768 File size: 71kb
• We do not know if these corridors are defined by the last SATCOM ping, or multiple pings.
• We cannot distinguish if the a/c was flying or parked on the ground (powered up) when these pings were sent.
• We have not been told how the distance from IOR was estimated - it could be signal strength or time of flight (signal propagation time).Opinion: as an EE I think signal strength is unlikely - it would depend on things such as a/c orientation. Time of flight - which is how GPS works - seems more likely - however others have pointed out this requires precise timing.
• NOTE: While these may appear as paths - they are not. They are simply a set of potential locations based upon ping data. The aircraft could have been in a constant standard turn circle somewhere along one of the loci (red lines) and the satellite could not tell. We only know it was somewhere along those lines.

SATCOM Pings
• The SATCOM system sends (or responds to) periodic 'pings' to/from the satellites (hourly). These 'pings' are a network communication that says "I am here."
• SATCOM pings are not communicating a/c status, they are part of the communications channel. They are akin to registration pings on a cell system.
• The last pings were detected at 8:11am Malaysia time. This does not mean the aircraft went down or landed at this time, only that the last ping was 8:11. Source I've seen indicate the pings are hourly - but that is not confirmed.
• SATCOM pings provide no aircraft heading, speed or altitude information, however, distance from the Satellite can be estimated, and ONLY distance.
• Based on analysis of the SATCOM pings by Inmarsat, two possible corridors have been predicted based upon a radius from the satellite picking up the pings.
• SATCOM pings would be sent as long as the system (aircraft) was power up and withing coverage area. So, on the ground, if powered up (thanks to mandala499).
• People have asked if SATCOM pings could come from a crashed plane if the right parts survived.
• Very unlikely. The system is not self contained, the equipment, power and antennas are separate.
• Recent news about the fact that the plane could have landed really appears to be just a restatement of known data.
• Specifically - the SATCOM pings could have been sent from an aircraft powered, but landed - or from an aircraft in flight.
• Clarification: The key is the system is powered, whether by engines, apu or shore line (on the ground).
• Again: These pings to not contain ANY data about the aircraft position, speed, altitude, etc.
• The 'location' data inferred from the SATCOM pings is based analysis of those signals which gives an approximate distance from the satellite to the a/c.
• Since the satellite is in geosynchronous orbit (~22,000 miles), the difference in distance between a flying aircraft and one on the ground is probably not measurable.

Fire Theory (Was Cargo and Lithium Batteries)
OPINION: I've tended to discount this based on my belief as a FF that the a/c could not continue to fly for 7+ hours. However, recent discussions have caused me to re-evaluate that.
Regarding the fire source:
• One hypothesis that has been presented is that a fire broke out incapacitated the crew/passengers or caused hypoxia that did so.
• (See http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/16/opinio...er-malaysia-flight-370/)
•
• The hypothesis is:
• A fire broke out causing the crew to disable multiple systems (or disabled them itself)
• The crew was successful in containing/extinguishing the fire - but then was disable due to smoke and/or hypoxia.
• The a/c, not on autopilot, continued to fly till fuel starvation occurred.
• Key to this theory is that the aircraft, not on autopilot and not controlled, could remain in stable flight.
• For most a/c- this would not be possible. But for the 777 it may - provided the flight control systems did not revert to a degraded state.
• Specifically - the 777 will self trim (pitch up/down) to maintain speed. As long as these pitch up/down excursions did not cause stall (too high) or CFIT (crash), the a/c could fly.
• The 777 also has bank protections - so banks induced by trim/turbulence would be damped and unlike a non FBW plane that may spiral in - the 777 could conceivable continue flying.
• This is by no means proven or accepted, but it seems credible considering the advanced flight controls of an aircraft like the 777 as compared to a non-FBW aircraft.
• This does not explain any purposeful heading changes except perhaps the first one which could be a turn to return to safety by the crew.
• Other turns that appear to be FMS driven would be just happenstance.
• It would be very interesting to hear Boeing's take on this - or to experiment with a 777.
• There are reports that the cargo in MH370 did not receive normal X-ray screening (though this has recently been weakly denied)
• There are reports of a shipment of lithium batteries on the a/c and that perhaps they caused a fire.
• The hold of a passenger a/c like the 777 is protected with Halon and detectors - so a fire in the hold would be detected and suppressed.
• A fire in the hold is unlikely to impact flight systems or EE bay. Freight a/c are different (thanks Pihero)
• Fire suppression systems in the 777 include: Engines, APU, Cargo Holds, Toilets and portable extinguishers in Cabin/Galleys, Flight Deck, Crew Rest. Unprotected - EEbay and Wheel wells.(thanks Pihero)

Hypoxia and Pressurization
• There has been lots of speculation about loss of pressurization in the aircraft and what that would do to passengers and crew.
• IMPORTANT NOTE: all of this applies to cabin pressure - not the pressure outside.Just climbing to 45K would not exposed the passengers to that altitude - the aircraft would have to be depressurized.
• In the case of loss of cabin pressure - O2 mask would deploy automatically.
• The pilots cannot disable this above 13,500 feet - they can release the masks.
• Passengers masks would last 12-20 minutes. Portable crew (FA) bottles ~30minutes. Cockpit crew longer.
• Time of useful consciousness (not to loss of consciousness) will range from 1-3 minutes at 30K to 9-15 seconds at 43K. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_useful_consciousness)
• above 40,000 ft cabin altitude - positive pressure oxygen is required - passenger masks do not do this and would not be effective.
• Because of this the a/c must be certified able to descend and pilots demonstrate an emergency descent to ~10,000 ft in 2 minutes.
• The actual regulation is that passengers cannot be exposed to a cabin altitude of more than 25K for more than 2 minutes, or more than 40K for any time. (A380 got an exception to this rule.)

Cabin depressurizing by Pilots (this is not as solid as I would like in terms of facts).
NOTE: Above 40K passenger masks are ineffective - positive pressure O2 is required.
• Question: Can the pilots 'depressurize' the plane? Yes.
• The FAA regulations state the a/c "must be designed so that occupants will not be exposed to cabin pressure altitudes in excess of 15,000 feet (4,600 m) after any probable failure condition in the pressurization system"
• So for normal 'failures' - no, the cabin will remain below 15K.
• However, per member mandala499 the pilots could: 1) Open outflow valves, 2) turn off bleed air. The cabin would then depressurize to current altitude.
• I have no data on how quickly this would happen - but I think it would take minutes at least.
• Let's investigate the sequence required and how that is related to the reported "climb to 45K":
• 1) Pilots (or whomever is in control) switches to manual pressurization, turns off bleed, opens outflow valves.
• 2) Cabin altitude climbs above 13,500 and passenger masks deploy - there is no way to prevent that. At that point passengers and cabin crew know.
• 3) Presuming the pilots do not descent - passengers O2 will last 12-20 minutes. After that, depending on the cabin altitude they will loose effective consciousness (not loose consciousness, but effective consciousness).
• 4) Cabin crew O2 will run out.
• 5) During this time, the flight crew O2 will operate (and last longer)
• 6) At some point - depending on cabin altitude - those not on O2 will die (no other way to say it).
•
• The question becomes - how long would this sequence take?
• Below 40K cabin altitude - and once the cabin is depressurized- minimum 12-30 minutes for all passengers and cabin crew to become disabled.
• Above 40K cabin altitude - I do not know - w/o positive pressure oxygen people will loose effective consciousness in seconds.
• With O2, but not positive pressure - will this be extended?
• If you descend below 40K with non positive pressure O2 masks still operating - people may recover depending on duration of hypoxia?
• Summary:
• It appears flight crew (or knowledgeable hijackers) could depressurize the cabin and disable all.
• O2 masks would deploy so passengers and cabin crew would know.
• This would not be an instantaneous procedure - the biggest factor is how long would it take to depressurize the a/c.

CRV/FDR Data
• The CVR (cockpit voice recorder) and FDR (flight data recorder) do not transmit data in flight.
• They do emit sonic pings if immersed. These will last a minimum of 30 days. We can expect sonar is being used to listen for them.
• The pinger operates at 37.5KHz 106.5dp re 1μPa. (thanks k83713)
• Maximum depth of beacon detection in Normal Conditions: 1-2km
• Maximum depth of beacon detection in Good Conditions: 4-5km
• Localising a pinger from the surface in shallow water is relatively easy, as described above. In deep water, the detection equipment should be installed on a self-propelled underwater vehicle, presupposing that the position is already known to within the maximum 2-3km detection range.
• More Info:http://www.hydro-international.com/i...Deepwater_Black_Box_Retrieval.html
• The CVR reportedly is a 120 minute CVR so it would contain only the last 120 minutes of flight (presuming it did not fail or was turned off prior to that).
• I don't have data form the recording time of the FDR, but it is typically much longer.

ELT
• The ELT, or emergency locater transmitter is mounted in the rear of the aircraft - difficult to access in flight.
• The ELT is battery powered - independent built in power source. It is this source that is suspect in causing the 787 fire at Heathrow.
• The ELT will be trigged by G forces in a crash. It will not operate under water.
• The ELT can be triggered from the cockpit - it is a hardwired switch not dependent on computer systems.
• The ELT transmits on the guard frequency (VHF) and on 406MHz to satellites. If it had been triggered (above water), satellites would have heard it and been able to locate the a/c.
• Clarification: there are additional manual ELT's in the cabin that can be activated by crew members, but do not include g-force sensing.

Primary versus Secondary Radar (brief tutorial)
• Primary radar is based on the original military usage. It sends out a strong (KW to MW) signal and looks for a reflection from something.
• Primary radar provides distance and location. Comparing returns speed can be determined. Strength of return can indicate size.
• Stealth a/c and ships are designed to absorb or miss-direct the reflection so primary radar cannot see them.
• Primary radar does not depend on the transponder, so turning off a transponder will not make an a/c disappear from primary.
• Primary radar is less prevalent than secondary - and more typically military tho ATC's do use it.
• Secondary Radar is really not Radar in the defined sense. It is directional communication.
• In secondary radar a directional signal is sent out (much less powerful than primary). Any a/c with a transponder that receives it will respond (the transponder responds) with information about the aircraft.
• Combined with the direction of the outgoing beam, the time of flight information and returned information, the a/c location and identity (and other info depending on the mode) is returned.
• Secondary radar is the primary method used by ATC.
• If the transponder fails or is turned off - secondary radar will not see the a/c.
• In the case of MH370
• The transponder was turned off - so the a/c disappeared from secondary (ATC) radar.
• A target was tracked west, then northwest using primary radar. That target was correlated with SATCOM pings help determine it was MH370.

Airworthiness Directive
• The airworthiness directive about corrosion near the SATCOM antenna does not apply to this ship.
• The ship DOES have SATCOM - but uses a different antenna

Aircraft Type and Fuel State
• The aircraft was a Boeing 777-200ER. MTOW 656,000 lbs, 301 3 class passengers (standard Boeing Config - does not reflect MH specific config.)
• The aircraft could land in 6000 ft, or much less at high risk. As little as 3000ft has been stated, but it could not take off from there.
• The aircraft would need a hard surface to land - this is heavier that has been done on steel matts.
• It is reported the aircraft 45 to 60 minutes extra fuel. This would amount to about 7-7.5 hrs of fuel. This is a normal amount for this route.
• The aircraft should have been able to fly about 30 minutes after the last SATCOM ping at 8:11.
• The figure at this link show max range for the 777-200ER. NOTE: MH370 was not fueled for this range. http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com.../777_range_singapore.pdf

Search Areas (including those that have be halted)
• Along the planed route. I believe searching in this area is ending or decreasing based on new data indicating the a/c is not there
• West over the Malacca strait
• North west of Malacca strait
• Along the two loci predicted by the SATCOM pings which continue north to Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and south to the India Ocean.
• These are huge search areas - I do not have a good handle on what assets are deployed where
• It appears the north loci is considered more likely because of primary radar signals that roughly correlate.
• I would expect review of primary radar west of Australia is in process if not done.
• Today it seems the south route is being focused on - but there is confusion.
• The search area are shrinking due to improved intelligence.
• The USS Kidd has been pulled off, but other US resources are operating.

Mobile phones
• We continue to have lots of discussion on "mobile phones" - can the connect in flight, etc.
• We don't have any reports or evidence of that any passenger or crew mobile phone has registered with any network.
• Until we have that data or reports - I believe the mobile phone discussions are not getting us anywhere.
• UPDATE: This subject continues to be discussed. But, we have had no reports of cell phones registering with towers - we are in a loop here.

Theories and Conspiracy Theories
• Currently, it seems most believe there is some positive action here - hijacker or crew based.
• Opinion: Mostly, I believe this is because a mechanical failure that selectively terminates communication, incapacitates the crew/passengers, but then allows the a/c to fly on uncontrolled for 7 hours seems unlikely.
• There are lots of theories out there - some clearly "conspiracy based" some just factual. Often it is hard to distinguish.
• Here are a few.
• A fire broke out that incapacitated passengers and crew - but allowed to aircraft to fly on it's own till starvation.
• Corollary to this - the fire would have to disable comms, or cause the crew to disable comms in an attempt to fight it.
• Corollary to this - the fire drove the pilots out of the cockpit.
• Corollary to this - the fire disabled comms, nav and systems, and the crew - still alive - got lost trying to return.
• The a/c was hijacked and flown to a remote strip to be used in a future terrorist act.
• Corollary to this - The breadth of the countries searching alone makes this problematic, but it is not impossible.
• The aircraft "shadowed" either a KLM or SIA aircraft to hide from radar then turned off the track and landed.
• Questions raised - lot of discussion about if this was possible.
• A mechanical failure depressurized the a/c and disabled the crew/passengers either rapidly or without their knowledge.
• Corollary to this - What disabled comms?
• One of the pilots hijacked the plane to commit suicide. (See Pilot Conspiracy below).
• The plane was hijacked, either with or without crew involvement.
• Despite the belief this is incident required human actions - we have no evidence of that. Rather - no other theory seems credible.
• Freescale engineers have been hijacked for sensitive US data. Opinion: As an engineer who has worked with Freescale - I find that unsupportable. Companies send groups of employees around all the time. While many companies have policies about the # of executives on a flight - that typically is not enforced on regular employees.
• There was something in the Cargo worth stealing - which is why it was not screened. This would require involvement of lots of people on the ground. Why not steal it on the ground.
• The plane was full of undeclared gold.Gold is very heavy - what would you declare the cargo as?
• The US hijacked the 777 using on board FBW technology to fly it like a drone to Diego Garcia (this one wins the insanity case).
• Related: There has been a claim by counter terrorist expert that this could be a "cyber hijack" - a malicious attack of a FBW a/c. I don't know where to go with this - only reporting it because I'm trying to stay ahead of the next craze. Opinion: (speaking as an EE) this is the stuff dreams are made of (bad dreams).

Pilot Related Conspiracy Theories (some of this is my opinion).
• The crew and passengers are a focus of investigation. Particularly the crew, because of the difficulty of managing an external cockpit intrusion.
• The pilot has received a lot of attention because: 1) He supports opposition politics, 2) He has a mongo flight simulator, 3) There are rumors of family problems (debunked).
• To address the data on a few of these:
• 1) The pilot supports opposition politics and may have been at a trial of the opposition leader (confirmed 'ordinary' member of opposition party). Opinion: What is the motive for suicide in this case?
• 2) The pilot has a very fancy flight simulator. People claim he used it to for this. Opinion: A 777 pilot does not need to train for the flying done - he knows how to do that stuff already. What he needs it planning for violent action/takeover. A flight simulator is no help.
• Note - there has been some discussion that the pilot used this for training of accomplices.
• 3) There are rumors of family problems reported from China. This has been reported as untrue.

IN summary what we know is.
• The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.
• It seems we have data that says that way-points (undefined as yet) were added to the FMS prior to the 1:07 ACARS report.
• There is evidence from SATCOM and Radar that the a/c traveled west - then most likely north west.
• Hourly SATCOM signals show the a/c was operating till at least 8:11am Malaysia time, over 7 hrs total flight time
• We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.

Additional thoughts.
• A hijacking or positive intervention by human agency seems likely.
• The erratic altitude and course may indicate a struggle on board.
• While we would like to believe the a/c landed safely somewhere, that seems unlikely to have happened unobserved.


That is all.
Respectfully Submitted - rcair1
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6226 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-19 22:18:45
March 19 2014 22:17 GMT
#580
On March 20 2014 04:14 r.Evo wrote:
It's one of those things that aren't impossible, but still unlikely. The common ground for these theories is that it assumes that pilots fell unconscious without any notice at all. That's also something that just doesn't happen unless you start assuming they were poisoned/gassed. The only known case where pilots "randomly" fell unconscious was Helios Flight 522 in which basically the entire cabin was lit up with warning lights and they were talking to ground control about what's going on - they just completely misread what's actually happening.


Basically everything comes back to the complete silence from the plane. This doesn't happen with fires, highjackings or even parts falling off the plane midflight. It's very hard to build a scenario in which a plane just stops communicating without sabotage, natural disaster or the pilots/crew being involved.


Also this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_South_Dakota_Learjet_crash

Not a jumbo, but is a situation where exactly that kind of silence occurred.

Of course, that doesn't really add up in this case because someone onboard the Malaysian flight was still in control for some time after going dark.
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