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World Chess Championship 2013 - Page 73

Forum Index > General Forum
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Chess discussion continues here
hypercube
Profile Joined April 2010
Hungary2735 Posts
November 21 2013 06:47 GMT
#1441
On November 21 2013 15:45 IgnE wrote:
Just play Go instead.


A beginner should strive to lose their first 100 games as soon as possible


Don't think so.
"Sending people in rockets to other planets is a waste of money better spent on sending rockets into people on this planet."
FatChicksUnited
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada214 Posts
November 21 2013 06:51 GMT
#1442
On November 21 2013 14:31 jacevedo wrote:
It really baffles me that so many people still think memorizing countless opening moves and staying ahead of theory is still critical when the current best player in the world is known for playing relatively weak openings and focusing solely on middle and late game play to derive his advantages and win games. And if you aren't playing at a grandmaster or super GM level the openings mean even less for you than they do for Carlsen.

I think it is more likely that players want to blame their failure to advance as a player on their refusal to study opening theory. It is the chess equivalent of imbalance whine.

On November 21 2013 15:10 Yurie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2013 14:48 Chocolate wrote:
Carlsen knows a shit ton of openings and opening theory. He just seems weak in the opening because he hasn't memorized/ experienced as many lines as some might have.


I am of the opposite opinion regarding this. Carlsen knowingly plays weaker openings to get out of the areas his opponent has prepared. It is his way of countering preparation chess which is played at the top level.

On November 21 2013 15:24 jacevedo wrote:
Yes, that's exactly right. And he knows he might be slightly worse in the opening theoretically, but it doesn't matter unless his opponent can force their theoretical advantage into being, and that's what people who exaggerate the importance of openings do not understand. You can watch countless grandmasters games where the evaluation changes from one side to the other several times during a match, which illustrates how much more important the moves in the middle and late game actually are.

Both of you agree that Carlsen plays weaker openings just to avoid his opponents' opening preparations, and then you still downplay the importance of openings? I think his behavior proves just how important openings and preparation can be, in that Carlsen feels enough of his skill advantage negated by established theory to force him into unique lines that are suboptimal at face.

Then just imagine two mechanically equivalent mid-level players, one who has studied a particular opening thoroughly and another other who hasn't. The one without the study experience would be at a significant disadvantage for the first part of the game, as (like someone else mentioned) he'd be playing not against his opponent but against machine-verified grandmaster experience (if executed well).
Fat chicks need love too.
jacevedo
Profile Blog Joined November 2013
31 Posts
November 21 2013 07:10 GMT
#1443
On November 21 2013 15:51 FatChicksUnited wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2013 14:31 jacevedo wrote:
It really baffles me that so many people still think memorizing countless opening moves and staying ahead of theory is still critical when the current best player in the world is known for playing relatively weak openings and focusing solely on middle and late game play to derive his advantages and win games. And if you aren't playing at a grandmaster or super GM level the openings mean even less for you than they do for Carlsen.

I think it is more likely that players want to blame their failure to advance as a player on their refusal to study opening theory. It is the chess equivalent of imbalance whine.

Show nested quote +
On November 21 2013 15:10 Yurie wrote:
On November 21 2013 14:48 Chocolate wrote:
Carlsen knows a shit ton of openings and opening theory. He just seems weak in the opening because he hasn't memorized/ experienced as many lines as some might have.


I am of the opposite opinion regarding this. Carlsen knowingly plays weaker openings to get out of the areas his opponent has prepared. It is his way of countering preparation chess which is played at the top level.

Show nested quote +
On November 21 2013 15:24 jacevedo wrote:
Yes, that's exactly right. And he knows he might be slightly worse in the opening theoretically, but it doesn't matter unless his opponent can force their theoretical advantage into being, and that's what people who exaggerate the importance of openings do not understand. You can watch countless grandmasters games where the evaluation changes from one side to the other several times during a match, which illustrates how much more important the moves in the middle and late game actually are.

Both of you agree that Carlsen plays weaker openings just to avoid his opponents' opening preparations, and then you still downplay the importance of openings? I think his behavior proves just how important openings and preparation can be, in that Carlsen feels enough of his skill advantage negated by established theory to force him into unique lines that are suboptimal at face.

Then just imagine two mechanically equivalent mid-level players, one who has studied a particular opening thoroughly and another other who hasn't. The one without the study experience would be at a significant disadvantage for the first part of the game, as (like someone else mentioned) he'd be playing not against his opponent but against machine-verified grandmaster experience (if executed well).

It doesn't make sense to compare two players who are mechanically equal, but one studied an opening more. You are giving one player more study time than the other.

Suppose instead we compare two players with equal amounts of time to study, one player studies mainly strategy/tactics and the other studies mainly the opening. Which do you see winning more often?

Obviously some opening theory is very useful, I just think it's importance is exaggerated, mostly by people looking for excuses.
"Freedom is overrated anyway." -Kwark
FatChicksUnited
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada214 Posts
November 21 2013 07:46 GMT
#1444
On November 21 2013 16:10 jacevedo wrote:
It doesn't make sense to compare two players who are mechanically equal, but one studied an opening more. You are giving one player more study time than the other.

Suppose instead we compare two players with equal amounts of time to study, one player studies mainly strategy/tactics and the other studies mainly the opening. Which do you see winning more often?

Well, mechanical ability is somewhat innate. For most players, after a certain threshold of ability, it would take months of dedicated study and play, and probably outside instruction, to achieve any significant improvement. The time taken to thoroughly learn an opening could probably be measured in weeks, again depending upon individual factors.

Obviously some opening theory is very useful, I just think it's importance is exaggerated, mostly by people looking for excuses.

I don't know if its importance is exaggerated or not, but I do believe it can be a significant advantage or disadvantage for someone learning the game. As an excuse though, I agree with you that it's fairly weak for anyone serious about learning chess.
Fat chicks need love too.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
November 21 2013 08:02 GMT
#1445
On November 21 2013 16:46 FatChicksUnited wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2013 16:10 jacevedo wrote:
It doesn't make sense to compare two players who are mechanically equal, but one studied an opening more. You are giving one player more study time than the other.

Suppose instead we compare two players with equal amounts of time to study, one player studies mainly strategy/tactics and the other studies mainly the opening. Which do you see winning more often?

Well, mechanical ability is somewhat innate. For most players, after a certain threshold of ability, it would take months of dedicated study and play, and probably outside instruction, to achieve any significant improvement. The time taken to thoroughly learn an opening could probably be measured in weeks, again depending upon individual factors.

Show nested quote +
Obviously some opening theory is very useful, I just think it's importance is exaggerated, mostly by people looking for excuses.

I don't know if its importance is exaggerated or not, but I do believe it can be a significant advantage or disadvantage for someone learning the game. As an excuse though, I agree with you that it's fairly weak for anyone serious about learning chess.


I take it you've never played chess at a high level in rated tournaments. Even if that were true, the threshold is insanely high.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
urboss
Profile Joined September 2013
Austria1223 Posts
November 21 2013 08:24 GMT
#1446
This is it!
If Anand doesn't win today, it's over.

[image loading]

Poll: Tiger or Chicken?

Tiger (19)
 
58%

Chicken (14)
 
42%

33 total votes

Your vote: Tiger or Chicken?

(Vote): Tiger
(Vote): Chicken


Maenander
Profile Joined November 2002
Germany4926 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-21 08:52:58
November 21 2013 08:52 GMT
#1447
I don't know if Anand feels he has nothing to lose now. When people talk about the greatest chess players, it's inevitable that world championship matches come into focus. I don't think Anand wants his - probably - last world championship final to be a humiliating defeat.
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5617 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-21 09:07:50
November 21 2013 09:07 GMT
#1448
No it wouldn't be over. He can even lose the next game if he wins three times in a row afterwards...

I really hope he wins thought, for the competition.
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
Maenander
Profile Joined November 2002
Germany4926 Posts
November 21 2013 09:10 GMT
#1449
On November 21 2013 18:07 Elroi wrote:
No it wouldn't be over. He can even lose the next game if he wins three times in a row afterwards...

I really hope he wins thought, for the competition.

I was just talking about the whole final, it's easy for us to say he can go out "all guns blazing" or whatever in the last few games, because he has nothing to lose. That's probably not how he feels about it.
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5617 Posts
November 21 2013 09:29 GMT
#1450
On November 21 2013 18:10 Maenander wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2013 18:07 Elroi wrote:
No it wouldn't be over. He can even lose the next game if he wins three times in a row afterwards...

I really hope he wins thought, for the competition.

I was just talking about the whole final, it's easy for us to say he can go out "all guns blazing" or whatever in the last few games, because he has nothing to lose. That's probably not how he feels about it.

I know. I was only responding to this.
On November 21 2013 17:24 urboss wrote:
If Anand doesn't win today, it's over.

"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-21 09:34:18
November 21 2013 09:32 GMT
#1451
1. d4! Tiger wins!

EDIT: Nimzo-Indian with 4. f3 yay.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
vanatir
Profile Joined May 2008
Germany355 Posts
November 21 2013 09:33 GMT
#1452
maybe its not that easy;)
i would vote chicken but hope we will see a tiger ^^
aka EnjoYmE - streaming on http://www.twitch.tv/myprobe
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
November 21 2013 09:47 GMT
#1453
g4! Finally a fighting game!
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Arevall
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden1133 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-21 09:51:31
November 21 2013 09:51 GMT
#1454
Maybe he has to take a shit. I really prefer Trent

Context: Polgar goes on and on about Carlsen's jacket and Anand standing up.
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5617 Posts
November 21 2013 09:53 GMT
#1455
So what about sacking the knight on g4?
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
November 21 2013 09:58 GMT
#1456
On November 21 2013 18:51 Arevall wrote:
Maybe he has to take a shit. I really prefer Trent

Context: Polgar goes on and on about Carlsen's jacket and Anand standing up.


What is she supposed to talk about? Chess?

The ICC commentary is far superior.
We found Dove in a soapless place.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
November 21 2013 10:00 GMT
#1457
On November 21 2013 18:53 Elroi wrote:
So what about sacking the knight on g4?

Anands playing aggressive, Carlsen must know he's the better player. My advice to him would be to be patient/safe and wait for Anand to make an error. He doesn't need to do anything to win this game, a draw is perfectly fine.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
ThePhan2m
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
Norway2751 Posts
November 21 2013 10:04 GMT
#1458
According to Norwegian TV, the norwegian national team has actually prepared and discussed this scenario for a long time.
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
November 21 2013 10:04 GMT
#1459
On November 21 2013 18:53 Elroi wrote:
So what about sacking the knight on g4?


I don't have an engine with me, but intuitively it doesn't seem like there's compensation. Yes you end up dis-coordinatig white by kicking the king around a bit, but how do you take advantage of white's king position? Black simply doesn't have the pieces mobilized to make an attack, while black's king is guarded by several pieces. Also, it opens lines for the white rooks towards black's castled position.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Ketch
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands7285 Posts
November 21 2013 10:08 GMT
#1460
On November 21 2013 19:04 ThePhan2m wrote:
According to Norwegian TV, the norwegian national team has actually prepared and discussed this scenario for a long time.


Would be sick if he is thinking a bit longer to make it seem he is a bit underprepared for this position, but actually is super prepared :D
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