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On September 23 2013 07:21 MooMooMugi wrote:
The power levels kind of gets out of hand during the Namek Saga, where everyone is in the mid ten-thousands 30-100k, with Goku being the highest, then random shit happens and suddenly everyone's power levels are in the millions. Like wtf?
Yeah. I know. You aren't the one who's trying to make a WC3 mod following all the DBZ power levels as closely as possible. With this, I just found out it's impossible! I have to represent numbers from 400 to 20+ trillion using signed intergers, which means the biggest base number I can use is just over 2 billion (2^31)...
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I thought that the Saiyan + Frieza saga had a subplot involving proving that power levels are meaningless.
The only time after that that power levels came back into the picture was when they were trying to paint Babidi as antiquated and as someone who is no longer a true threat to anyone. That also showed the inadequacy of power levels.
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Super saiyan god? Bills? guess I have some catching up to do >_<
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On September 23 2013 07:21 MooMooMugi wrote:
The power levels kind of gets out of hand during the Namek Saga, where everyone is in the mid ten-thousands 30-100k, with Goku being the highest, then random shit happens and suddenly everyone's power levels are in the millions. Like wtf?
For example:
Before:
Gohan:
-about 1,500 upon arrival
-14,000 after Guru unlocks potential
Vegeta:
-upon arrival: 24,000
-after Zarbon: ~30,000
-After fighting Recoome: 250,000 (according to V-Jump, which I guess is considered a good source) <-- WTF??? almost 10x his power after one fight?
When Freiza actually gets off his ass and fights:
Vegeta: over 2,000,000 (2,400,000 is a good approximation)
Gohan: probably close to 1,000,000 when he's really mad
How does Vegeta 10x his power with just a single "near-death" experience and Gohan 100x his power even after his potential is unlocked just because hes mad? LOL
Plot man... It's a pretty powerful motivator. Keep in mind, AT drew the story without any serious consideration to the numbers behind the fights. If he did, he wouldn't have created the amazing story he did.
For the Vegeta one, it was posted by V-Jump. Not my most preferred source, so I put the note next to it as a disclaimer.
For the second Vegeta one, Piccolo was well into the million zone, and couldn't see Frieza's death beam. Vegeta saw it clearly AND moved fast enough to save someone's ass from it. Fact is, Vegeta's strength was at least in the 2 millions when Frieza was at the 3 or 4 million mark (which is why Vegeta still gets his ass handed to him).
Also, for the Gohan one, even if temporarily, he DID keep down Frieza for a bit, who was over 1 million at the time, and did a bit of damage (nothing too significant). That's why I say close to 1 million, though it's likely under 1 million. Maybe I should've made it clearer, though depending on when during the fight it was, it could actually be over 1 million. Gohan had an absurd amount of potential in him if you kept up with the story, so the number isn't all that surprising.
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On September 23 2013 07:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I can't believe the Over 9000 meme was a mistranslation x.x
And the higher amounts are absurd... I mean, I assume the mathematics is correct behind it... but jumping from millions and billions in a single (Fusion) saga to sextillions... it's just so... unnecessary lol
Anyways, it's cool to see the numbers behind the power levels. I watched the show religiously and several times through, but I hadn't thought about this stuff before.
That's why I included the more reasonable one cause C is a constant that essentially determines the strength of the fusion. Vegito was probably the most overkill character ever created. Though I'll stick to my Sexy Sextillions Vegito, cause it gives a stronger platform from which to say "mathematically, it's hard to deny that Vegito>Billis".
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That also doesnt explain how Kid Buu is weaker than Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, AND Super Buu his previous form.
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On September 23 2013 07:26 LegalLord wrote:
I thought that the Saiyan + Frieza saga had a subplot involving proving that power levels are meaningless.
The only time after that that power levels came back into the picture was when they were trying to paint Babidi as antiquated and as someone who is no longer a true threat to anyone. That also showed the inadequacy of power levels.
I believe Akira Toriyama has said something to this effect as well. I'm going to look it up now.
I'm a huge fan, by the way, I have all of the DB manga and DBZ on DVD. I don't follow the un-canon stuff like GT or the DBZ movies (except the TV specials done by Toriyama).
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The entire debate is based on an assumption that power levels need to increase relative to each other on a percentage scale. Where 10000 is a huge gap in the beginning its nothing later because of the huge numbers. As much as i love dragonball it just seems that getting a list of hypothetical numbers based on arbitrary assumptions does not a good debate make.
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On September 23 2013 07:26 LegalLord wrote:
I thought that the Saiyan + Frieza saga had a subplot involving proving that power levels are meaningless.
The only time after that that power levels came back into the picture was when they were trying to paint Babidi as antiquated and as someone who is no longer a true threat to anyone. That also showed the inadequacy of power levels.
Yeah, for the most part (aside from Goku vs Frieza), the numbers are pretty meaningless. But I mean, they're fun to make (a headache to make sense of if you're trying to make a list), and it helps conceptualize how strong a character is compared to another. For example, we know Gotenks>>>>>>>>Goku=Majin Vegeta, but how big of a difference is it? When we do the math, it's by a factor of 150-200x stronger. Which makes you realize how useless Goku and Vegeta were in the story until they fused and turned Super Buu back into Kid Buu.
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On September 23 2013 07:37 Gulf wrote:
The entire debate is based on an assumption that power levels need to increase relative to each other on a percentage scale. Where 10000 is a huge gap in the beginning its nothing later because of the huge numbers. As much as i love dragonball it just seems that getting a list of hypothetical numbers based on arbitrary assumptions does not a good debate make.
When a 10,000 gap was a large margin was when 10,000 meant a difference in strength of 33% or more (something along those lines). The percentage differences are more or less still there (except for how Vegeta man-handled Dodoria... That one's written in stone and I can't for the life of me explain it other than Dodoria was panicking too much to properly defend himself). Vegeta held a 33% increase in power over Kui, so that's easily explainable, but... Dodoria was short 2,000, which was less than 10% for both of them, and still got wrecked. Guess it means staying calm is always the right way to go? Who knows...
When numbers get big (as they did with SS Goku vs Frieza, and again after HBTC/RoSaT), you toss out the little numbers for approximation. What difference does 1,000 make when you're working in the 100 millions? It accounts for a thousandth of a percent! Pennies and dimes to them man. Unless you have an entire jar or stack of them (like using a Spirit Bomb), they're pretty useless, just spare change.
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So is super saiyan god considered part of DBZ while ss4 is not?
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It's really interesting and makes sense more or less. It's pretty cool to note how it's mathed out base Goku is 70-100mil in the latest movie, since when Billis saw Goku before transforming at all that he found it doubtful that he beat Frieza.
On September 23 2013 07:48 Bippzy wrote:
So is super saiyan god considered part of DBZ while ss4 is not?
Yes because Akira Toriyama made/was a huge part in that movie, while he never acknowledged or touched DBGT.
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I don't accept any of this. Super hero Gohan is the strongest! Nuff' said.
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On September 23 2013 05:19 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 05:14 Paljas wrote:On September 23 2013 05:09 Sbrubbles wrote:Really? That wasn't the number I was expecting. its the japanese one iirc. over 9000 is actually a translation error My whole life is a lie
The danish version was 8000 too
busted, somebody didn't read the books :D
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On September 23 2013 07:50 HeartOfTheSwarm wrote:
I don't accept any of this. Super hero Gohan is the strongest! Nuff' said.
Great Saiyaman?
Also interesting to know that GT is just made up to milk cash out of DBZ and is not cannon. It just seems like the concept of super saiyan god is very similar to ss4.
Also excluding ssgod, as a single character gohan is definitely the strongest(I'm biased he is my favorite character)
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On September 23 2013 07:21 MooMooMugi wrote:
The power levels kind of gets out of hand during the Namek Saga, where everyone is in the mid ten-thousands 30-100k, with Goku being the highest, then random shit happens and suddenly everyone's power levels are in the millions. Like wtf?
For example:
Before:
Gohan:
-about 1,500 upon arrival
-14,000 after Guru unlocks potential
Vegeta:
-upon arrival: 24,000
-after Zarbon: ~30,000
-After fighting Recoome: 250,000 (according to V-Jump, which I guess is considered a good source) <-- WTF??? almost 10x his power after one fight?
When Freiza actually gets off his ass and fights:
Vegeta: over 2,000,000 (2,400,000 is a good approximation)
Gohan: probably close to 1,000,000 when he's really mad
How does Vegeta 10x his power with just a single "near-death" experience and Gohan 100x his power even after his potential is unlocked just because hes mad? LOL
there's no logic bro its DBZ, they're sayians they get stronger where they nearly die. Gohan is the golden boy with HIDDEN power.
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On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote:
ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid. Except Mystic Gohan tore apart Super buu and held his own against Super buu+sjj3 gotenks+Piccolo, and Goku was just marginally stronger in sjj3 than kid buu--- who was mentioned to be numerous times, weaker though more threatening [for indiscernible reasons] than super buu.
This is why covering all the stats is pointless. Its fiction and as a result simply falls apart from plot holes, misstatements and forgetfulness. For example, Piccolo is referred to be as 'strong as a super sayan' during the android saga before he fused with the old fart. Yet, for him to have covered the distance between what he was, and some base largely untrained super sayan, is astronomical. It would mean that Piccolo for no reason whatsoever suddenly started training and gaining hundreds of thousands of ki daily, whereas Goku and the other Sayans, in base form, were drastically slower. Or else they'd of been triple his strength, something directly contradicted by evidence and stated fact.
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This thread is so stupidly enlightening in so many ways, my brain wishes to stop reading, but my eyes just won't stop looking at it.
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As someone earlier in this thread mentioned: I also don't quite get the power and speed scaling. Pretty much in the beginning Vegeta just wipes a whole planet from the universe without any effort (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnqtg0bte6w). At the end of the series every little energy attack should at least kill the earth, if not the whole solar system outright, but it doens't for some reason. Another example: on Namek a full power punch causes people to fly hundrets of meters through solid rock, so later on they should go through the whole earth at least.
Same with speed, on Namek speed seems to be the highest throughout the entire series.
Aside from that, how does full power Gohan lose all of his power and becomes so weak again? And why could he become so strong in the first place? Is the human/saiyajinmix better then pure saiyans after all, or what is the requirement that a Kai can make someone that strong? Wouldn't it be a good idea to get Goku those powers aswell?
And @RyLai: I don't get the Potora fusion formula: Vegito with C=1 gets 3.3 quintillion base
Vegito with C = 100,000) gets 33 trillion base, jet the formula is C(AxB), so with higher C the numbers should be higher. Or should the formula be (AxB) / C (or just C be a number between 0 and 1)?
Aside from that , shouldn't 55 millionen * 60 million be be 3,3*e^15, so Vegito's base strength should be quadrillion, not quintillion?
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Disagree with your base saiyan numbers for Buu Saga. 60 mil is way too low, no way they are half as strong as Frieza.
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EPT
