On September 23 2013 12:34 B1nary wrote: It's all Freiza's fault for getting all the power levels super-inflated. When he was fighting Goku, he said "I'm only using 1% of my power" (or did that get mis-translated in the dub?) At that point, he was already at >1 million, which sets the baseline SSJ Goku to be 100 million.
If Ultimate Gohan was so strong, why couldn't he (or even Gotenks for that matter) have fought Kid Buu at the end instead of Goku/Vegeta?
Freiza was pretty bad with math so I wouldnt trust him/her. I mean he/she some how predicted that Namek destruction in 5min = 50 episode.
Thanks for providing the stream link for the battle of the gods movie, completely forgot about that for a while, was looking for a stream to watch it like 5 months ago.
On September 23 2013 12:34 B1nary wrote: It's all Freiza's fault for getting all the power levels super-inflated. When he was fighting Goku, he said "I'm only using 1% of my power" (or did that get mis-translated in the dub?) At that point, he was already at >1 million, which sets the baseline SSJ Goku to be 100 million.
If Ultimate Gohan was so strong, why couldn't he (or even Gotenks for that matter) have fought Kid Buu at the end instead of Goku/Vegeta?
I remember reading somewhere that the "1% of my power" thing was added into the dub with no foundation and it wasn't mentioned in the manga at all. This chart says it's even less than 1%, so who knows. This thread is hilarious by the way.
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
On September 23 2013 13:04 Epishade wrote: I can't find Hercule on the charts!
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
Apparently a high enough power level lets you do this
On September 23 2013 13:04 Epishade wrote: I can't find Hercule on the charts!
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
So, with senzu beans available, revival from the dragonballs, and a gigantic power gain after almost dying.... why did the saiyans not just beam each other to near death then eat a senzu bean over and over and over again (like vegeta did vs freiza)
On September 23 2013 13:04 Epishade wrote: I can't find Hercule on the charts!
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
So, with senzu beans available, revival from the dragonballs, and a gigantic power gain after almost dying.... why did the saiyans not just beam each other to near death then eat a senzu bean over and over and over again (like vegeta did vs freiza)
Because zenkais stopped happening after they went super saiyan for some reason.
On September 23 2013 13:04 Epishade wrote: I can't find Hercule on the charts!
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
So, with senzu beans available, revival from the dragonballs, and a gigantic power gain after almost dying.... why did the saiyans not just beam each other to near death then eat a senzu bean over and over and over again (like vegeta did vs freiza)
Because zenkais stopped happening after they went super saiyan for some reason.
maybe they wanted to use potara rings as the deus ex machina to keep things fresh. basically didnt matter which "i win"-card they used to fullfil powerups necessary for the story.
On September 23 2013 08:31 CruelZeratul wrote: As someone earlier in this thread mentioned: I also don't quite get the power and speed scaling. Pretty much in the beginning Vegeta just wipes a whole planet from the universe without any effort (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnqtg0bte6w). At the end of the series every little energy attack should at least kill the earth, if not the whole solar system outright, but it doens't for some reason. Another example: on Namek a full power punch causes people to fly hundrets of meters through solid rock, so later on they should go through the whole earth at least. Same with speed, on Namek speed seems to be the highest throughout the entire series.
Aside from that, how does full power Gohan lose all of his power and becomes so weak again? And why could he become so strong in the first place? Is the human/saiyajinmix better then pure saiyans after all, or what is the requirement that a Kai can make someone that strong? Wouldn't it be a good idea to get Goku those powers aswell?
And @RyLai: I don't get the Potora fusion formula: Vegito with C=1 gets 3.3 quintillion base Vegito with C = 100,000) gets 33 trillion base, jet the formula is C(AxB), so with higher C the numbers should be higher. Or should the formula be (AxB) / C (or just C be a number between 0 and 1)? Aside from that , shouldn't 55 millionen * 60 million be be 3,3*e^15, so Vegito's base strength should be quadrillion, not quintillion?
Good catch. I messed that up on the Potara Fusion formula! Thanks!
Gohan loses his power because 1) his power is largely linked with his emotions, and 2) he stops training. I just go off the fact that Vegeta calls Gohan pitiful and never stops nagging the fact that he was stronger when he fought Cell. Gohan was a relative joke compared to the other 2 at the time though, but I guess that's what happens when you fall below the benchmark and everyone rises above it.
Vegeta blowing up a planet was in the anime (so technically non-cannon). He could probably do it though, if he aimed for the core. Off-core shots require more power level to blow up (minimum of 300 million according to the scale I threw up, 300 kilis for a definitive number).
I don't know if Dragonball is at all included in this (I don't see why it wouldn't be)... But Master Roshi was able to destroy the moon and his power level couldn't have been much higher than 100. Earth is approximately 4x bigger than the moon. If there's a linear relationship between size of planet and power level required to destroy it then both Goku and Piccolo (using your numbers) had ample power using charged attacks at the very beginning of DBZ (Kamehameha and SBC both reach ~1000 or more vs Raditz).
If that's the case then there's no way anybody would need an off-core shot as powerful as 300 million to destroy a planet. It would be less than 1 million and almost certainly less than 100,000 (depending on the planet and how the shot hits).
Why don't we just accept that the numbers in DBZ make zero sense basically from the very beginning?
On September 23 2013 08:31 CruelZeratul wrote: As someone earlier in this thread mentioned: I also don't quite get the power and speed scaling. Pretty much in the beginning Vegeta just wipes a whole planet from the universe without any effort (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnqtg0bte6w). At the end of the series every little energy attack should at least kill the earth, if not the whole solar system outright, but it doens't for some reason. Another example: on Namek a full power punch causes people to fly hundrets of meters through solid rock, so later on they should go through the whole earth at least. Same with speed, on Namek speed seems to be the highest throughout the entire series.
Aside from that, how does full power Gohan lose all of his power and becomes so weak again? And why could he become so strong in the first place? Is the human/saiyajinmix better then pure saiyans after all, or what is the requirement that a Kai can make someone that strong? Wouldn't it be a good idea to get Goku those powers aswell?
And @RyLai: I don't get the Potora fusion formula: Vegito with C=1 gets 3.3 quintillion base Vegito with C = 100,000) gets 33 trillion base, jet the formula is C(AxB), so with higher C the numbers should be higher. Or should the formula be (AxB) / C (or just C be a number between 0 and 1)? Aside from that , shouldn't 55 millionen * 60 million be be 3,3*e^15, so Vegito's base strength should be quadrillion, not quintillion?
Good catch. I messed that up on the Potara Fusion formula! Thanks!
Gohan loses his power because 1) his power is largely linked with his emotions, and 2) he stops training. I just go off the fact that Vegeta calls Gohan pitiful and never stops nagging the fact that he was stronger when he fought Cell. Gohan was a relative joke compared to the other 2 at the time though, but I guess that's what happens when you fall below the benchmark and everyone rises above it.
Vegeta blowing up a planet was in the anime (so technically non-cannon). He could probably do it though, if he aimed for the core. Off-core shots require more power level to blow up (minimum of 300 million according to the scale I threw up, 300 kilis for a definitive number).
I don't know if Dragonball is at all included in this (I don't see why it wouldn't be)... But Master Roshi was able to destroy the moon and his power level couldn't have been much higher than 100. Earth is approximately 4x bigger than the moon. If there's a linear relationship between size of planet and power level required to destroy it then both Goku and Piccolo (using your numbers) had ample power using charged attacks at the very beginning of DBZ (Kamehameha and SBC both reach ~1000 or more vs Raditz).
If that's the case then there's no way anybody would need an off-core shot as powerful as 300 million to destroy a planet. It would be less than 1 million and almost certainly less than 100,000 (depending on the planet and how the shot hits).
Why don't we just accept that the numbers in DBZ make zero sense basically from the very beginning?
thats actually an excellent point. but AT most likely didnt have dbz power level stuff in mind when he created that early episode of vanilla db.
wow, incredible thread OP! I've read about power level before but this has such a good layout and you seem to know your stuff pretty damn well even if some of the numbers are not 100% right since we will never really know exact amounts of most things after the freiza arc. I have to say though, this: Super Saiyan 3: 1,320 quintillion, 1.32 sextillion made me :O Such a crazy high number and to think these guys were having issues with 30,000 power levels at the beginning of DBZ lol
On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid.
Mystic gohan >>>> ssj 3 goku. Mystic gohan easily beat up Super Buu and was even with Super Buu who absorbed piccolo and SS3 gotanks(or w/e they are called). Mystic gohan is regarded as the strongest non-fused character in the manga! He's also my favourite character
On September 23 2013 06:18 On_Slaught wrote: At those levels just the force of one of their punches, regardless of whether it hits, would at the very least destroy every life form on the continent, if not the whole planet.
You really don't want to apply physics to DBZ. It's far worse than Superman.
rofl this. Physics doesn't apply in DBZ at all.
On September 23 2013 06:35 Gary Oak wrote: The really outrageous power levels are one of the things that kind of killed my interest in the later parts of DBZ. I guess my suspension of disbelief couldn't handle it. Think about it: 18,000 is more than enough to destroy a planet. When you get into the trillions, a fart would probably wipe out the whole solar system.
On September 23 2013 13:04 Epishade wrote: I can't find Hercule on the charts!
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
So, with senzu beans available, revival from the dragonballs, and a gigantic power gain after almost dying.... why did the saiyans not just beam each other to near death then eat a senzu bean over and over and over again (like vegeta did vs freiza)
that episode was pure comedy. I broke down laughing when Buu was losing to some candy XD
On September 23 2013 12:34 B1nary wrote: It's all Freiza's fault for getting all the power levels super-inflated. When he was fighting Goku, he said "I'm only using 1% of my power" (or did that get mis-translated in the dub?) At that point, he was already at >1 million, which sets the baseline SSJ Goku to be 100 million.
If Ultimate Gohan was so strong, why couldn't he (or even Gotenks for that matter) have fought Kid Buu at the end instead of Goku/Vegeta?
Cause Goku fucked up and saved Hercule and his dog instead of the fighters.
On September 23 2013 13:04 Epishade wrote: I can't find Hercule on the charts!
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
There is a link on what the power levels can destroy based on the statement that it takes 300 kilis to destroy a planet.
Maybe Piccolo's training was just straight up more efficient and could only be done by warrior-type Namekians? (Or in Piccolo's case, the most talented Namekian of some super strong clan.)
I mean, Piccolo is still significantly stronger than any base Saiyan except Gotenks (who is supposed to be stronger than a SS2 in base form), but he doesn't compare to any of the top 3 in Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga (I can't put Piccolo as being anywhere near Perfect Cell, though I can easily put him above Kaioshin because Kami's unease and respect held Piccolo back from using his full abilities).
After the cell saga the show becomes retarded, and they raped Piccolo's character. But just to focus on the main point: Why in the hell would Piccolo's method be so much more effiecient? And why wasnt it before the advent of ssj? For example. Goku was stronger than Piccolo before he went SSJ. But for the show to make sense, Piccolo simply out trained every single sayan and surpassed their base power by a drastic margin, from a huge deficit, from the freiza to the android saga. Maybe he even retains that for a while after, we dont really know and things become murky. But that kinda of dramatic increase is just a huge plot hole. Goku would of just copied what Piccolo was doing if it was so much better [he surely would share it, they train to protect the planet afterall]. And, more importantly, Sayans are meant to be a 'warrior race', Piccolo's basically a plant. So again, why can he totally totally TOTALLY out pace base sayans in training? Its ridiculous.
1) Now you know why the Buu Saga is the least liked saga for hardcore DBZ fans. 2) Piccolo uses the split technique (whatever it's called). So he can constantly train with someone of equal strength, and probably reap twice the benefits (that second part is a guess, probably not true). The Saiyans NEVER train with each other with the exception of Goku and Gohan, who for that period have shown the greatest growth rate in all of DBZ aside from anyone named Piccolo. And Goku started off training Gohan to basically be as strong as him. So now it doesn't seem as awkward for Piccolo to have more efficient training methods now does it? 3) Piccolo would likely not share his training methods with Goku if he can avoid it. His goal is STILL to be the strongest of them all, even if world domination is still no longer part of his aims. But the fact is, even if he told Goku to use the split form technique, would Goku do it? No, cause he can't!
On September 23 2013 11:29 Olinimmm wrote:
Here's my rebuttal: Billis sizes up Goku and says "I don't believe you could've beaten Frieza. That must mean going Super Saiyan powers you up". Goku in base form (post Buu saga) isn't comparable in battle to Frieza. This movie is considered cannon because apparently AT had a lot to do with it, and it makes my list more accurate, and it gives us a good range of power levels to go by, instead of simply stating Goku's base power level is infinity to the power of 20 million because there's nothing to refute it.
I know about the line from BoG, but in my opinion Goku was suppressed. There's simply too much in the original manga that supports base saiyans>>>>>frieza that it's the only conclusion to make. There's 4 examples I have in mind to prove it. 1. Goten and trunks vs 18. Goten and trunks fight close to evenly with 18 even with the might mask costume on, if they were weaker than Frieza then 18 could oneshot them. 2. All the saiyans agree on the no super saiyan rule for the tournament, they know that Piccolo is coming, and yet still expect to win. If they were weaker than Frieza then they would have no hope of defeating Piccolo in base. 3. Supreme kai can oneshot Frieza, he was pissing his pants at the thought of fighting Yakon, who base Goku was near equal with. 4. If you're going to count Battle of Gods as canon you might as well count YO son goku and his friends return. In the movie, Tarble states that Abo and Cado have become equal to Frieza, Goku states that he was not much of an opponent in hindsight and says they would be a good match for the boys. Goten and Trunks proceed to fight them equally in base.
All this is much more than 1 statement that can easily be attributed to Goku being suppressed, which happened in YO son goku as well.
1) If 18 1-shots them, she might get disqualified for killing someone. Also, she didn't know it was Goten and Trunks until they turned Super Saiyan. They're very likely weaker than Frieza at that point if you do go by that Yo Son Goku special. I mean, when Trunks was in the gravity room with Vegeta doing 300g, he could barely move, which is roughly what Vegeta would've done when he first went crazy on the gravity training, so Trunks should be around that point, and probably a little less, which means less than 2.5 million. 2) Vegeta runs his mouth a lot. I also thought over this scenario quite a bit and chalked it down to either he didn't know Piccolo was competing or he just ran his mouth off (Gohan knows Piccolo is competing, and he talked to Piccolo AFTER talking to Trunks and Vegeta). However, he HAD to know 18 was competing, because she was in the plane with him. As a result, I just conclude that Vegeta was running his arrogant mouth without keeping it in check, as usual. Vegeta may be an intelligent fighter, but he's beyond cocky and sometimes forgets how strong his opponent is or how strong they could be. 3) Yakon is over 5x the strength of Frieza. To one-shot a guy, you just need to be around 2x their strength. Yakon can more than likely likely 1-shot Frieza as well. Also, base Goku is not on par with Yakon. It's likely Yakon was playing around with him, since he seems to be the type to play with his food when you take into consideration him eating Goku's light emissions in his SS form. 4) Battle of the Gods had a fairly heavy involvement from AT. AT designed the SS God look, and apparently fought vehemently for it according to DBZ wiki. I have no idea how much involvement the Goku and Friends special had from AT, but it is known that AT was fairly active in the making of the 14th movie. I'd expect a God of the caliber of Billis to at least be able to reasonably size up a surpressed Saiyan within reason. Ginyu did it, why not Billis?
1. Gravity levels are inconsistent to power levels. Also I believe they were in 150g but even if it was 300g that means it was just 3 times what Namek saga Goku(90,000) was doing. That means Trunks would only be at 270,000. Which means even his super saiyan would be weaker than Frieza, which is absolutely impossible. Also, Ssj trunks landed a punch on Ssj vegeta, if he was 2.5 mil then vegeta is like 25 times stronger than him by your numbers so how did that happen? 2. This is really just a cop out I mean seriously. Vegeta got his ass kicked by 18 as a super saiyan, if hes at 55 mil there is no way in hell he's gonna expect to beat her. I mean there's being arrogant and then there's being flat out delusional. Besides, Gohan invited Piccolo and didnt expect to lose to him either, are you saying both Vegeta and Gohan are that delusional? 3. I don't agree, looking at the fight Goku doesn't seem to be in any trouble in base form, and even after Babidi transports them to yakon's homeworld, Goku dodges his attack and kicks him in the face, Yakon looks stunned. If you're gonna claim that he was suppressed/holding back, I can just say the same thing about Base goku in BOG. 4.Ginyu didn't accurately guess Goku's power, he guessed 60k, and he only guessed that not because of sensing him, but by the fact that Goku owned the Ginyu Force. If Bills saw Base Gokus feats he would guess higher as well.
Honestly the whole Buu saga basically shoves in our face that Frieza is a joke, even to the dork that is Supreme Kai. So yeah other than that though even for how weak you have Base saiyans, the kids are still way too low. Gohan was impressed by Goten's power and was worried that he might be surpassed. SSj trunks landed a hit on vegeta.
1) He's not punching back. Yeah, some things don't make sense. For things like that, we have only 1 reasonable explanation: plot. Also, AT didn't write DBZ with the intention of sticking to something like power levels. We create power level lists for fun, to put an understandable value on their powers, and in my case cause the math turned out much better than I thought it ever possibly could, considering a some of the numbers given to us were initially so hard to believe (SS2 being 2x SS, fusion being AxB). 2) Gohan thought of the no Super Saiyan rule last minute. He was more concerned with protecting his identity than the prize money. Are you saying you think out EVERY on-the-spot decision you've made in your life 100% through in 5 seconds? If so, you're a genius. 3) Yakon is stunned because they've never heard of the concept of seeing ki. Yakon thought he had an indomitable advantage and it was thrown in his face. If you were playing texas hold em, and you could see your opponent's cards without them knowing, you had a pair of aces, go all in, and he calls you with a 3-4 off suit and wins, and it turns out he can read the flop, turn, and river on top of seeing your hand, wouldn't you be mind blown? Mathematically, if Goku was at 800 kilis, or even just 700 kilis, that means Super Saiyan is 35,000 kilis, and Super Saiyan 2 is 70,000 kilis. Considering Dabura is over 4,000 kilis, and is comparable to Perfect Cell in strength, that means Goku can trash Perfect Cell with a Kaioken x6. Do you see how retarded the idea of base Goku being anywhere close to Yakon is if you actually do the math? If you don't like it, then go with the fact that AT is a forgetful person and that he's not a mathematician and chalk it down to plot. You could go with the decaying SS multipliers theory, but if you go with that, you literally ARE just pulling numbers out of your ass, even if the numbers seem more sensible, they're nothing but what you feel would be good and have no real data to base your numbers off of. 4) His initial guess was 60k. After fighting a bit he hit the number pretty close.
Frieza was a joke the instant Trunks showed up. Frieza has been a joke ever since the ending of the Frieza arc.
Having the kids be ridiculously high without any real rigorous training would be tough to imagine. Also, in one of the later specials, they were supposed to be a good match for Frieza. Given that I wouldn't say my half-Saiyan kid was a good match for the guy unless his power level was around 3 million (cause anything more would be overkill), I'm going to say that their power level has to be under 3 million. I mean, if their base was 120 million, then it wouldn't be a close match because if my kid throws a tantrum because things aren't going his way, he'll just go super and wipe the floor with the guy; that's not much of a good match.
[B]On September 23 2013 12:49 Dodgin wrote: Thanks for providing the stream link for the battle of the gods movie, completely forgot about that for a while, was looking for a stream to watch it like 5 months ago.
Yeah. The thing is, it wasn't released on DVD until earlier this month, so basically if you looked for it 5 months ago, it didn't exist (trust me, I looked too, then I googled the DVD release date and saw it to be September).
He was stronger than Super Buu - minus the absorped people.
I only read the danish translation, but it clearly shows Goku and Vegeta being like "uhh wut?" when they tore out Fat Buu from inside Super Buu and then made it out and watched him shrink in size and grow in power
I don't agree with some of the numbers at all, but it is a great discussion point for DBZ fans haha, very awesome and nice effort you put in thanks!
Wonder what would happen with the movies in terms of power level, damn they were messed up some of those! Always wonder how you scale in Gohan's power before the Cell fights due to him basically randomly 1shotting people to then getting his ass kicked cuz he is scared.... xD
On September 23 2013 16:55 Iplaythings wrote: He was stronger than Super Buu - minus the absorped people.
I only read the danish translation, but it clearly shows Goku and Vegeta being like "uhh wut?" when they tore out Fat Buu from inside Super Buu and then made it out and watched him shrink in size and grow in power
Can't be possible if you're talking about Goku. Gotenks>SS2 Majin Vegeta=SS2 Goku. SS3 Gotenks=Super Buu. It's mathematically impossible that SS3 Goku could be compared to Super Buu.
On September 23 2013 11:51 RyLai wrote: 1) Now you know why the Buu Saga is the least liked saga for hardcore DBZ fans. 2) Piccolo uses the split technique (whatever it's called). So he can constantly train with someone of equal strength, and probably reap twice the benefits (that second part is a guess, probably not true). The Saiyans NEVER train with each other with the exception of Goku and Gohan, who for that period have shown the greatest growth rate in all of DBZ aside from anyone named Piccolo. And Goku started off training Gohan to basically be as strong as him. So now it doesn't seem as awkward for Piccolo to have more efficient training methods now does it? 3) Piccolo would likely not share his training methods with Goku if he can avoid it. His goal is STILL to be the strongest of them all, even if world domination is still no longer part of his aims. But the fact is, even if he told Goku to use the split form technique, would Goku do it? No, cause he can't!
.
1) Ive always hated the Buu saga. 2) Everyone knows the split technique, and so Goku could do the same thing. Piccolo also knew this technique long before SSJ, and yet couldnt keep pace with Goku's training. Goku and Gohan also were implied to have trained together during the wait for the Androids, yet, again, by the power level increase Piccolo was easily more than doubling them. Through a technique they already knew? Your grasping at straws and you know it. 3) Theres no hint of him being a meglomaniac at all after he renounces his past, and [multiple times at that] the DBZ fighters arent training 'to be the best', but literally to defeat incoming threats which will kill them all and burn the planet to the ground. Whatever degree of warrior pride Piccolo had doesnt extend that far, hes not Vegeta for crying out loud.
4) Ive never heard anything about Goku not knowing split form, and given he learned the Kamamah wave [and basically everything, ever] in a split second, I highly doubt he cant do it. And more importantly, Tien/Krillin etc also know this technique, and should be able to outpace base sayans using it just as Piccolo did, but they fell behind instead. Unless this split form technique is only one "mysterious" part of Piccolos "mysterious" but never before mentioned and randomly discovered and never transmitted training regimine, inbetween the freiza and android sagas--- which he randomly stopped using despite increasing at dramatic rates that would surely see him surpass SSJ2 long before the Buu Saga.
Sorry, no matter what way you splice it, whatever excuse is eventually banked on, its just contrived nonsense for bad writing. DBZ was entertaining as a kid but its not really a workable anime/manga in a rigid sense.
EPT
