DBZ Power Level List (and discussions) - Page 7

cLutZ

United States19574 Posts

September 23 2013 08:25 GMT

#121

I know there is probably mathematical support for some of your numbers, but the disparity that is built into the Base>Super Saiyan multiplications does not jive with the series in the least. What appears (to me) to happen is that achieving super Saiyan levels results in a permanent increase in power that translates to your regular form as well. Regular, walking around, Goku would have kicked Frieza's ass when he returns to Earth with King Cool. This part of the show, along with the Cell Games Saga (where Goku and Gohan train themselves to stay in Super Saiyan form) demonstrate that the Z fighters have enormous control over the power level they want to maintain (which is hard to do in the SS forms, as demonstrated by them hilariously breaking cups).

If you want even more demonstrations of how strong Goku's Normal Mode is, you just have to look at what happened after he died in the Cell Games, and went to that stupid tournament (plus the part where he went to DBZ hell with his friend and they cleaned house).

Olinimmm

51 Posts

September 23 2013 08:25 GMT

#122

On September 23 2013 16:43 RyLai wrote:

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Cause Goku fucked up and saved Hercule and his dog instead of the fighters.

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There is a link on what the power levels can destroy based on the statement that it takes 300 kilis to destroy a planet.

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On September 23 2013 12:10 Olinimmm wrote:

On September 23 2013 11:51 RyLai wrote:

On September 23 2013 11:08 Dazed_Spy wrote:

On September 23 2013 10:30 RyLai wrote:

Maybe Piccolo's training was just straight up more efficient and could only be done by warrior-type Namekians? (Or in Piccolo's case, the most talented Namekian of some super strong clan.)

I mean, Piccolo is still significantly stronger than any base Saiyan except Gotenks (who is supposed to be stronger than a SS2 in base form), but he doesn't compare to any of the top 3 in Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga (I can't put Piccolo as being anywhere near Perfect Cell, though I can easily put him above Kaioshin because Kami's unease and respect held Piccolo back from using his full abilities).

After the cell saga the show becomes retarded, and they raped Piccolo's character. But just to focus on the main point: Why in the hell would Piccolo's method be so much more effiecient? And why wasnt it before the advent of ssj? For example. Goku was stronger than Piccolo before he went SSJ. But for the show to make sense, Piccolo simply out trained every single sayan and surpassed their base power by a drastic margin, from a huge deficit, from the freiza to the android saga. Maybe he even retains that for a while after, we dont really know and things become murky. But that kinda of dramatic increase is just a huge plot hole. Goku would of just copied what Piccolo was doing if it was so much better [he surely would share it, they train to protect the planet afterall]. And, more importantly, Sayans are meant to be a 'warrior race', Piccolo's basically a plant. So again, why can he totally totally TOTALLY out pace base sayans in training? Its ridiculous.

1) Now you know why the Buu Saga is the least liked saga for hardcore DBZ fans.
2) Piccolo uses the split technique (whatever it's called). So he can constantly train with someone of equal strength, and probably reap twice the benefits (that second part is a guess, probably not true). The Saiyans NEVER train with each other with the exception of Goku and Gohan, who for that period have shown the greatest growth rate in all of DBZ aside from anyone named Piccolo. And Goku started off training Gohan to basically be as strong as him. So now it doesn't seem as awkward for Piccolo to have more efficient training methods now does it?
3) Piccolo would likely not share his training methods with Goku if he can avoid it. His goal is STILL to be the strongest of them all, even if world domination is still no longer part of his aims. But the fact is, even if he told Goku to use the split form technique, would Goku do it? No, cause he can't!

On September 23 2013 11:29 Olinimmm wrote:

Here's my rebuttal: Billis sizes up Goku and says "I don't believe you could've beaten Frieza. That must mean going Super Saiyan powers you up". Goku in base form (post Buu saga) isn't comparable in battle to Frieza. This movie is considered cannon because apparently AT had a lot to do with it, and it makes my list more accurate, and it gives us a good range of power levels to go by, instead of simply stating Goku's base power level is infinity to the power of 20 million because there's nothing to refute it.

I know about the line from BoG, but in my opinion Goku was suppressed. There's simply too much in the original manga that supports base saiyans>>>>>frieza that it's the only conclusion to make. There's 4 examples I have in mind to prove it.
1. Goten and trunks vs 18. Goten and trunks fight close to evenly with 18 even with the might mask costume on, if they were weaker than Frieza then 18 could oneshot them.
2. All the saiyans agree on the no super saiyan rule for the tournament, they know that Piccolo is coming, and yet still expect to win. If they were weaker than Frieza then they would have no hope of defeating Piccolo in base.
3. Supreme kai can oneshot Frieza, he was pissing his pants at the thought of fighting Yakon, who base Goku was near equal with.
4. If you're going to count Battle of Gods as canon you might as well count YO son goku and his friends return. In the movie, Tarble states that Abo and Cado have become equal to Frieza, Goku states that he was not much of an opponent in hindsight and says they would be a good match for the boys. Goten and Trunks proceed to fight them equally in base.

All this is much more than 1 statement that can easily be attributed to Goku being suppressed, which happened in YO son goku as well.

1) If 18 1-shots them, she might get disqualified for killing someone. Also, she didn't know it was Goten and Trunks until they turned Super Saiyan. They're very likely weaker than Frieza at that point if you do go by that Yo Son Goku special. I mean, when Trunks was in the gravity room with Vegeta doing 300g, he could barely move, which is roughly what Vegeta would've done when he first went crazy on the gravity training, so Trunks should be around that point, and probably a little less, which means less than 2.5 million.
2) Vegeta runs his mouth a lot. I also thought over this scenario quite a bit and chalked it down to either he didn't know Piccolo was competing or he just ran his mouth off (Gohan knows Piccolo is competing, and he talked to Piccolo AFTER talking to Trunks and Vegeta). However, he HAD to know 18 was competing, because she was in the plane with him. As a result, I just conclude that Vegeta was running his arrogant mouth without keeping it in check, as usual. Vegeta may be an intelligent fighter, but he's beyond cocky and sometimes forgets how strong his opponent is or how strong they could be.
3) Yakon is over 5x the strength of Frieza. To one-shot a guy, you just need to be around 2x their strength. Yakon can more than likely likely 1-shot Frieza as well. Also, base Goku is not on par with Yakon. It's likely Yakon was playing around with him, since he seems to be the type to play with his food when you take into consideration him eating Goku's light emissions in his SS form.
4) Battle of the Gods had a fairly heavy involvement from AT. AT designed the SS God look, and apparently fought vehemently for it according to DBZ wiki. I have no idea how much involvement the Goku and Friends special had from AT, but it is known that AT was fairly active in the making of the 14th movie. I'd expect a God of the caliber of Billis to at least be able to reasonably size up a surpressed Saiyan within reason. Ginyu did it, why not Billis?

1. Gravity levels are inconsistent to power levels. Also I believe they were in 150g but even if it was 300g that means it was just 3 times what Namek saga Goku(90,000) was doing. That means Trunks would only be at 270,000. Which means even his super saiyan would be weaker than Frieza, which is absolutely impossible. Also, Ssj trunks landed a punch on Ssj vegeta, if he was 2.5 mil then vegeta is like 25 times stronger than him by your numbers so how did that happen?
2. This is really just a cop out I mean seriously. Vegeta got his ass kicked by 18 as a super saiyan, if hes at 55 mil there is no way in hell he's gonna expect to beat her. I mean there's being arrogant and then there's being flat out delusional. Besides, Gohan invited Piccolo and didnt expect to lose to him either, are you saying both Vegeta and Gohan are that delusional?
3. I don't agree, looking at the fight Goku doesn't seem to be in any trouble in base form, and even after Babidi transports them to yakon's homeworld, Goku dodges his attack and kicks him in the face, Yakon looks stunned. If you're gonna claim that he was suppressed/holding back, I can just say the same thing about Base goku in BOG.
4.Ginyu didn't accurately guess Goku's power, he guessed 60k, and he only guessed that not because of sensing him, but by the fact that Goku owned the Ginyu Force. If Bills saw Base Gokus feats he would guess higher as well.

Honestly the whole Buu saga basically shoves in our face that Frieza is a joke, even to the dork that is Supreme Kai.
So yeah other than that though even for how weak you have Base saiyans, the kids are still way too low. Gohan was impressed by Goten's power and was worried that he might be surpassed. SSj trunks landed a hit on vegeta.

1) He's not punching back. Yeah, some things don't make sense. For things like that, we have only 1 reasonable explanation: plot. Also, AT didn't write DBZ with the intention of sticking to something like power levels. We create power level lists for fun, to put an understandable value on their powers, and in my case cause the math turned out much better than I thought it ever possibly could, considering a some of the numbers given to us were initially so hard to believe (SS2 being 2x SS, fusion being AxB).
2) Gohan thought of the no Super Saiyan rule last minute. He was more concerned with protecting his identity than the prize money. Are you saying you think out EVERY on-the-spot decision you've made in your life 100% through in 5 seconds? If so, you're a genius.
3) Yakon is stunned because they've never heard of the concept of seeing ki. Yakon thought he had an indomitable advantage and it was thrown in his face. If you were playing texas hold em, and you could see your opponent's cards without them knowing, you had a pair of aces, go all in, and he calls you with a 3-4 off suit and wins, and it turns out he can read the flop, turn, and river on top of seeing your hand, wouldn't you be mind blown? Mathematically, if Goku was at 800 kilis, or even just 700 kilis, that means Super Saiyan is 35,000 kilis, and Super Saiyan 2 is 70,000 kilis. Considering Dabura is over 4,000 kilis, and is comparable to Perfect Cell in strength, that means Goku can trash Perfect Cell with a Kaioken x6. Do you see how retarded the idea of base Goku being anywhere close to Yakon is if you actually do the math? If you don't like it, then go with the fact that AT is a forgetful person and that he's not a mathematician and chalk it down to plot. You could go with the decaying SS multipliers theory, but if you go with that, you literally ARE just pulling numbers out of your ass, even if the numbers seem more sensible, they're nothing but what you feel would be good and have no real data to base your numbers off of.
4) His initial guess was 60k. After fighting a bit he hit the number pretty close.

Frieza was a joke the instant Trunks showed up. Frieza has been a joke ever since the ending of the Frieza arc.

Having the kids be ridiculously high without any real rigorous training would be tough to imagine. Also, in one of the later specials, they were supposed to be a good match for Frieza. Given that I wouldn't say my half-Saiyan kid was a good match for the guy unless his power level was around 3 million (cause anything more would be overkill), I'm going to say that their power level has to be under 3 million. I mean, if their base was 120 million, then it wouldn't be a close match because if my kid throws a tantrum because things aren't going his way, he'll just go super and wipe the floor with the guy; that's not much of a good match.

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Yeah. The thing is, it wasn't released on DVD until earlier this month, so basically if you looked for it 5 months ago, it didn't exist (trust me, I looked too, then I googled the DVD release date and saw it to be September).

1. Once again you have no argument here...ok so trunks can hit vegeta in the face even though hes 25 times weaker cause plot. What? How is it plot for SSjtrunks to be able to hit SSjVegeta when hes 25 times stronger, when according to you only a 30 percent difference is a stomp. But Goku being suppressed is just unthinkable for some reason.

2. It's not complicated, everyone knows how strong Piccolo is, if it just slipped Gohan and Vegeta's mind don't you think they would've realized when they saw him at the tournament? "Oh shit hes 20 times stronger than us in base, fuck that no super saiyan rule" The saiyans all agreed on the no super saiyan rule, and yet showed absolutely no sign that they were in any way worried about facing Piccolo or 18. Clearly they believe they are superior in base...

3. That's an anime only line, All we know about Dabura in terms of kilis is that he's confident in defeating someone with 3000 kilis, he could easily be at 35,000.

4. Yeah because he knows how much power hes using and Goku was matching him. How does this mean anything in terms of Bills magically sensing goku's suppressed ki?

Well, obviously Goku meant a close match in base because that's what they fought them in.
Tarble: "As strong as freeza was"
Kids then proceed to fight with a slight edge on abo and cado in base till they have no choice to fuse. So how can they possibly be at 3 mil?

Abominous

Croatia1625 Posts

September 23 2013 08:27 GMT

#123

About blowing up planets, I remember when Nappa, Raditz and Vegeta were wandering around the universe and destroying literally more than half of a planet with a single blast (nothing special like gallick gun or final flash, just a blast) leaving a crescent-moonly shaped planet.

shin_toss

Philippines2589 Posts

September 23 2013 09:50 GMT

#124

dat farmer power level

SlayerS_BunkiE

Canada1713 Posts

September 23 2013 10:09 GMT

#125

this thread popped up as soon as I finished watching battle of gods

as awesome as discussing power levels should be, dball is filled with so many inconsistencies that it almost takes the fun out of it

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

September 23 2013 10:12 GMT

#126

On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote:
ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid.

There is no doubt that mystic gohan is stronger than ssj3 goku. This is made less obvious in the english translation than in the original, but there is no doubt Toriyama intended Mystic Gohan to be stronger.

The only situation where Goku is shown as clearly stronger than Mystic Gohan is in a movie, which obviously doesn't count.

shin_toss

Philippines2589 Posts

September 23 2013 10:19 GMT

#127

What does SSJ mean? I only followed til Buu saga

Also.. Mystic Gohan = Ultimate Gohan right?

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

September 23 2013 10:20 GMT

#128

On September 23 2013 19:19 shin_toss wrote:
What does SSJ mean? I only followed til Buu saga

Super Saiyajin, the japanese term for super saiyan.

Yes, Ultimate Gohan and Mystic Gohan refers to the same form. I don't think it's actually ever named in the series, fans started calling it Mystic Gohan and then it was called "Ultimate gohan" in some video games.

SolidMoose

United States1240 Posts

September 23 2013 10:37 GMT

#129

These numbers are way bigger than any other list I've seen. Particularly, the huge jump starts at Frieza where I've read 6 million at 50%, not 60 million. I've seen those same numbers, just with one less 0.

Olinimmm

51 Posts

September 23 2013 10:45 GMT

#130

On September 23 2013 19:37 SolidMoose wrote:
These numbers are way bigger than any other list I've seen. Particularly, the huge jump starts at Frieza where I've read 6 million at 50%, not 60 million. I've seen those same numbers, just with one less 0.

Yeah some people put Frieza at 12 million(though usually trolling) but its completely wrong. We know for a fact that 2nd Form frieza is at least 1 mil. Then inital Final Form Frieza is >>> 2nd form and =< to Goku post Zenkai. Goku pulls off a x20 kamehameha and it still doesnt hurt Frieza, which would be impossible.

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

September 23 2013 10:49 GMT

#131

It's not trolling, Akira Toriyama officially released powerlevels and put final form Frieza at 12 million while SSJ Goku sits at 15 million. It might not be logical, but it is official.

Olinimmm

51 Posts

September 23 2013 10:49 GMT

#132

On September 23 2013 19:49 Tobberoth wrote:
It's not trolling, Akira Toriyama officially released powerlevels and put final form Frieza at 12 million while SSJ Goku sits at 15 million. It might not be logical, but it is official.

lol. ok link me to this then.

Musicus

Germany23576 Posts

September 23 2013 10:51 GMT

#133

For me 12 milllion and 15 million seems way more logical, but I think the 120 milllion and 150 million are the official numbers.

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

September 23 2013 10:53 GMT

#134

On September 23 2013 19:49 Olinimmm wrote:

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lol. ok link me to this then.

http://www.angelfire.com/anime/cronosdbzrpg/powerlevels.html

Olinimmm

51 Posts

September 23 2013 10:55 GMT

#135

On September 23 2013 19:53 Tobberoth wrote:

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http://www.angelfire.com/anime/cronosdbzrpg/powerlevels.html

ok i get it. I say that people troll saying frieza is 12 mil, so you troll me saying frieza is 12 mil. Nice you almost had me.

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

September 23 2013 10:59 GMT

#136

On September 23 2013 19:55 Olinimmm wrote:

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ok i get it. I say that people troll saying frieza is 12 mil, so you troll me saying frieza is 12 mil. Nice you almost had me.

You have to always go with what you think is authentic. The highest PL ever mentioned in the actual series is Frieza claiming to be at 1 mil when reaching form 2. Going by the guide books, the highest mentioned is Goku at 150 mil as SSJ, but Akira didn't write that.

thezanursic

5497 Posts

September 23 2013 11:00 GMT

#137

Amm I've only seen like 3-4 episodes of the show, but

Goku: 416

SS3 Goku: 24 billion

What the fuck?

Olinimmm

51 Posts

September 23 2013 11:03 GMT

#138

On September 23 2013 19:59 Tobberoth wrote:

Show nested quote +

You just said Akira officially stated that ssj goku was 15 mil, he didn't though,

On September 23 2013 20:00 thezanursic wrote:
Amm I've only seen like 3-4 episodes of the show, but

Goku: 416

SS3 Goku: 24 billion

What the fuck?

To be fair, he did die twice, get trained by Gods, and fulfill an an alien prophecy to get to that power.

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

September 23 2013 11:05 GMT

#139

On September 23 2013 20:03 Olinimmm wrote:

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You just said Akira officially stated that ssj goku was 15 mil, he didn't though,

Several pages claim it, however, since only kids write these lists, they never provide any sources. I mean, if we only go by what is actually written in the manga, we're stuck at Friezas second form regardless, so there's no point in saying that they are trolling when they give later numbers. Either they have some source we don't know about, or they are just speculating like everyone else.

Uhnno

Netherlands288 Posts

September 23 2013 11:12 GMT

#140

This official picture by Toriyama definitely says Goku's Power Level is 150 Million. 50% Freeza is at 60 Million and 100% Freeza is at 120 Million.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/guides/battle_power/databook/databook_daiz7left.png?97cc0a

That's as official as we can get.

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