| Forum Index > General Forum |
|
RyLai
United States477 Posts
On September 26 2013 06:35 arb wrote: he does expressly state it cant be self inflicted it has to be done by someone else Goku did a mutiple Kamehameha during his trip to Namek on himself and got a Zenkai off of that. Well, none of this is even close to how OP Metal Cooler clones are. Also, funny how Cell can lose chunks off of his body and doesn't get a Zenkai unless he blows himself up. | ||
|
arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On September 26 2013 06:47 RyLai wrote: Goku did a mutiple Kamehameha during his trip to Namek on himself and got a Zenkai off of that. Well, none of this is even close to how OP Metal Cooler clones are. Also, funny how Cell can lose chunks off of his body and doesn't get a Zenkai unless he blows himself up. I could have swore Vegeta told Krillin that he cant get it off self inflicted injuries wat lolol | ||
|
RyLai
United States477 Posts
On September 26 2013 06:54 arb wrote: I could have swore Vegeta told Krillin that he cant get it off self inflicted injuries wat lolol And this is why Goku is a genius, and Vegeta is second best! But in all seriousness, AT is a forgetful person so plot conflicts are to be expected, though he still does a good job. | ||
|
HyDrA_solic
Portugal491 Posts
- A Sayajin's power comes from the tail. - Goku can only transform to SSJ4 after getting his Ape form to SSJ. This happens because he developed enough power to unveil the SSJ form (without tail, blonde hair only) - Vegeta also needs the tail to transform to Ape form. - Only true born Sayajins can get SSJ4 wich means, the true Sayajin. - The blonde hair forms were a mere unleash of power, however far incomplete of the true SSJ form. | ||
|
tshi
United States2495 Posts
On September 26 2013 11:29 HyDrA_solic wrote: Ah... DBZ, good ol' times. Regarding these crazy DBZ theories, I had a theory once that Akira Toryama as always thought that SSJ4 was the True SSJ form, regarding these next facts: - A Sayajin's power comes from the tail. - Goku can only transform to SSJ4 after getting his Ape form to SSJ. This happens because he developed enough power to unveil the SSJ form (without tail, blonde hair only) - Vegeta also needs the tail to transform to Ape form. - Only true born Sayajins can get SSJ4 wich means, the true Sayajin. - The blonde hair forms were a mere unleash of power, however far incomplete of the true SSJ form. For some reason, I remember that it was originally planned on finishing at the buu saga or the freeza saga? I dont remember if either of that was the case; anyway, I enjoyed both of them. DBGT....... EHHHH. It was cool. | ||
|
HyDrA_solic
Portugal491 Posts
| ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 26 2013 11:33 tshi wrote: For some reason, I remember that it was originally planned on finishing at the buu saga or the freeza saga? I dont remember if either of that was the case; anyway, I enjoyed both of them. DBGT....... EHHHH. It was cool. I thought DBGT was alright until I tried watching DBZ then DBGT in succession. The drop in quality was quite significant. | ||
|
obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On September 26 2013 06:20 RyLai wrote: Piccolo fused with Yamcha doesn't get rival bonus, so they likely wouldn't be remotely as strong. Remember Kibito and Kaioshin (Supreme Kai)? They're STILL weaker than all of the Saiyans cause of no rival/compatibility bonus. And yes, Vegito SHOULD be stronger than anything that can come in ANY future that has Goku and Vegeta being alive (this should tell you where I stand on the Vegito vs Billis argument). Vegito>All. Where did you get your formula from? I know Vegito is strong but nowhere does it say that you can just multiply two power levels together when you fuse them. Isn't that like illogical? (Yes, even in a world where glowing haired half monkey aliens fly and punch each other to fight even though they have the speed to fly to the other end of the galaxy in seconds and blow up suns, I want my math to work out). x+y=z not x*y=z. That's how fusion works. The fusion is more perfect which means they can stay together forever, but it doesn't mean they're that much stronger than regular fusion. Also Gohan is strong for beating cell juniors, but I remember him losing to Broly in the second movie. Doesn't that make Broly stronger than Gohan? At the least there is some inconsistency. Broly did lose to Goku, but that was because Goku took power from everyone else and then put it all into one punch and got lucky it was against the same area Broly got stabbed when he was 1 day old. That hardly counts. Broly was probably toying with the Z fighters. + Show Spoiler + On even footing, Broly's SS1 was stronger than anyone else's SS1. | ||
|
Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On September 26 2013 14:48 obesechicken13 wrote: Where did you get your formula from? I know Vegito is strong but nowhere does it say that you can just multiply two power levels together when you fuse them. Isn't that like illogical? (yes in a world where glowing haired half monkey aliens fly and punch each even to fight even though they have the speed to fly to the other end of the galaxy in seconds and blow up suns, I want my math to work out). x+y=z not x*y=z. That's how fusion works. The fusion is more perfect which means they can stay together forever, but it doesn't mean they're that much stronger than regular fusion. Also Gohan is strong for beating cell juniors, but I remember him losing to Broly in the second movie. Doesn't that make Broly stronger than Gohan? At the least there is some inconsistency. Broly did lose to Goku, but that was because Goku took power from everyone else and then put it all into one punch and got lucky it was against the same area Broly got stabbed when he was 1 day old. That hardly counts. Broly was probably toying with the Z fighters. + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3d6WsnzngU On even footing, Broly's SS1 was stronger than anyone else's SS1. Since movies are just filler BS I think it's impossible to make any decent ratings. That said (and it was ages since I watched the movie), Gohan never goes SSJ2 against Broly, right? Acording to the list, Gohan is only stronger than Broly in SSJ2 form, which sounds correct to me. | ||
|
arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On September 26 2013 15:27 Tobberoth wrote: Since movies are just filler BS I think it's impossible to make any decent ratings. That said (and it was ages since I watched the movie), Gohan never goes SSJ2 against Broly, right? Acording to the list, Gohan is only stronger than Broly in SSJ2 form, which sounds correct to me. Doesn't Brolys power level grow exponentially or something though and that's why they put the controller thing on him? He is the legendary ssj after all :0 | ||
|
Foblos
United States426 Posts
| ||
|
Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On September 26 2013 16:55 Foblos wrote: I'm not super up to date on DBZ lore but can you explain why Gohan became such a bitch in the Buu saga? I understand that he wasn't training hardcore like previous but it just never made sense to me how he could be literally the only savior of earth and then be a weak pansy a few years later. It's honestly not much more than that. No training, no reason to become stronger, nothing to trigger his hidden potential. Seems to me that Gohan was never all that interested in fighting, he was just born with ridiculous power. | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On September 26 2013 17:09 Tobberoth wrote: It's honestly not much more than that. No training, no reason to become stronger, nothing to trigger his hidden potential. Seems to me that Gohan was never all that interested in fighting, he was just born with ridiculous power. This is obviously the generally accepted reason, but it doesn't make sense though. What's the whole point of that "ultimate ritual" that's supposed to release all your dormant potential? Everyone else unlocked their potential and got stronger by training. Gohan was always "lazier" but was allowed access to "all" his potential because of the ritual. Whether he trains after that should be of no consequence. At the very least, his power level should stay the same. Obviously, the others could still get stronger by training and maybe become stronger than him. edit: holy sh*t I misread the original post; he was referring to the transition between cell and buu | ||
|
1ntrigue
Australia948 Posts
On September 24 2013 17:48 RyLai wrote: If you can double bagel someone, you can easily double bagel someone they can easily beat. There'd be no difference to you, cause you're on a different level. If you were to view them subjectively with the knowledge of a high level coach, you'd notice a key difference(s). Also, Isner loses to Nadal and Djokovic, but he won't get consistently bageled by them. Even Federer didn't do that and Federer was the king of handing out bagels and breadsticks. A difference of 1% leads to a life and death battle similar to Tien vs Goku, Piccolo Sr. vs Goku, and Piccolo Jr. vs Goku during the Tenkaichi Budokai. It's an unpredictable fight and either person can win. Again, if you don't follow a set multiplier system, you're literally just pulling numbers out of your ass with no system to follow other than the comparison system. In that case, comparisons between characters that never fight against one another are impossible to make unless they both fought against the same person, at the same time, and had noticeably different results. This means, it would be impossible to say that SS Gotenks>SS3 Goku. I could say SS3 Goku>SS3 Gotenks and you could NEVER EVER make a solid argument against me. With the set multiplier system, you can easily say that I was being a Goku fanboy and nothing more. That's not the only bullshit comparison I could make. I could also say that SS3 Goku>Super Buu (Gotenks Absorbed)>Ultimate Gohan, therefore meaning SS3 Goku>Ultimate Gohan, which we KNOW to be false. However, you have no hard evidence to refute me other than Goku's word that he can't beat Super Buu (he fights Super Buu in the anime, and takes a hell of a lot less damage than Gohan did; no data in the manga). Do you see how stupid fighting against the multiplier system is? Yeah, people who sit towards the middle of the system get screwed, but the numbers for the people on the outer limits (or who have been on the outer limits and haven't powered up by an unknown amount) are stable. Also, if you go with the decreasing multiplier theory, I have a single rebuttal that destroys it: Kaioken x10. If it's not stronger than Kaioken x10, it's a dead (preferably has to be stronger than Kaioken x20 also, otherwise he would use it in desperate times, like against Buu). Pretty hard to argue the multiplier system, or rather, it's extremely easy to argue for it, and I've yet to see any legitimate argument to refute it except for bickering over what the SS2 and SS3 multipliers are. That's cool and all, but there's 1 thing they don't take into account that destroys the entire model: Kaioken. At one point, Base Goku is 65 million and SS Goku is 210 million (or something like that). That means, Kaioken x5>Super Saiyan. That means Super Saiyan becomes entirely irrelevant and Goku might as well go Kaioken x10 and use that for his battles. Again, set multiplier system, otherwise we can make up whatever we want as long as there's no hard evidence to dispute it, like SS3 Goku being stronger than SS3 Gotenks (which isn't true since you can measure SS3 Gotenks' power in units of SS3 Gokus, which I guess I'll call "3ku"s from now on). No, the model is probably the most comprehensive one out there. It definitely factors in Kaioken. The model speculates that Kaioken's strain on the body becomes unmanageable (depending on species, physical condition etc.) such that it never really rivals SSJ's higher forms (ascended, ultra, 2 and 3). SSJ, on the other hand, is a reservoir of power that does not rely on the body's condition aside from the energy required to transition to SSJ. Read the fic's special chapters. I like your model but davidstarlingm's model is the best reasoned model for DBZ power levels yet. Edit: USSJ, he proposes, is similar to Kaioken in that it channels and traps ki into one's body for unsustainable bursts/periods of additional power. | ||
|
Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On September 26 2013 11:29 HyDrA_solic wrote: Ah... DBZ, good ol' times. Regarding these crazy DBZ theories, I had a theory once that Akira Toryama as always thought that SSJ4 was the True SSJ form, regarding these next facts: - A Sayajin's power comes from the tail. - Goku can only transform to SSJ4 after getting his Ape form to SSJ. This happens because he developed enough power to unveil the SSJ form (without tail, blonde hair only) - Vegeta also needs the tail to transform to Ape form. - Only true born Sayajins can get SSJ4 wich means, the true Sayajin. - The blonde hair forms were a mere unleash of power, however far incomplete of the true SSJ form. Should be noted that Akira Toriyama didn't come up with SSJ4 and he didn't design the form either. | ||
|
RyLai
United States477 Posts
On September 26 2013 19:22 1ntrigue wrote: No, the model is probably the most comprehensive one out there. It definitely factors in Kaioken. The model speculates that Kaioken's strain on the body becomes unmanageable (depending on species, physical condition etc.) such that it never really rivals SSJ's higher forms (ascended, ultra, 2 and 3). SSJ, on the other hand, is a reservoir of power that does not rely on the body's condition aside from the energy required to transition to SSJ. Read the fic's special chapters. I like your model but davidstarlingm's model is the best reasoned model for DBZ power levels yet. Edit: USSJ, he proposes, is similar to Kaioken in that it channels and traps ki into one's body for unsustainable bursts/periods of additional power. No. It's still 100% utter bullshit, because Kaiokenx2 is roughly equivalent to SS, which is BEYOND EASY to manage. Goku can easily maintain Kaioken x10. This makes all forms of Super Saiyan in his model 100% useless. It "speculates" that the strain on the body is unmanageable based on the species and physical condition. Goku's proven that as long as he doesn't use a Kaioken above the limits his body can handle (his comfortable max was x10 in the Frieza Saga), so the whole Kaioken being weaker than Super Saiyan even though Kaioken makes you stronger than Super Saiyan is an utter bullshit argument. I'm not proposing anything. I'm just giving out numbers based on known character comparisons and known multipliers (except ASS and USS). USS can't be compared to Kaioken. USS uses ki to increase muscle mass, that's it. From there, you use the muscle mass itself for increased strength and additional damage on your attacks. However, the additional mass slows you down. Not only that, it's DEFINITELY not used for burst periods of time. It's a fully continuous transformation that takes an ungodly amount of energy to sustain. On September 26 2013 14:48 obesechicken13 wrote: Where did you get your formula from? I know Vegito is strong but nowhere does it say that you can just multiply two power levels together when you fuse them. Isn't that like illogical? (Yes, even in a world where glowing haired half monkey aliens fly and punch each other to fight even though they have the speed to fly to the other end of the galaxy in seconds and blow up suns, I want my math to work out). x+y=z not x*y=z. That's how fusion works. The fusion is more perfect which means they can stay together forever, but it doesn't mean they're that much stronger than regular fusion. Also Gohan is strong for beating cell juniors, but I remember him losing to Broly in the second movie. Doesn't that make Broly stronger than Gohan? At the least there is some inconsistency. Broly did lose to Goku, but that was because Goku took power from everyone else and then put it all into one punch and got lucky it was against the same area Broly got stabbed when he was 1 day old. That hardly counts. Broly was probably toying with the Z fighters. + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3d6WsnzngU On even footing, Broly's SS1 was stronger than anyone else's SS1. Formula is from SEG. When they asked AT about fusion, he responded that "it was more [like] multiplication than addition". Multiplying the power levels together initially seemed illogical to me as well, until I did the math . You'd imagine 2 people well over 1 million to create absolute bullshit levels of strength when compared to everyone else. But it wasn't as far off as I initially imagined, which is part of why I posted these numbers - to prove that the SEG multipliers all work very well. Part of the reason it works though, is that Gotenks in base is stronger than SS2 Majin Vegeta, and he can go SS3 on top of that (even implied that base Gotenks post-HBTC/RoSaT is stronger than SS Gotenks before training, which closes the gap even more, but is mathematically too difficult to believe). And like I said, the math worked out. Look at the numbers, they actually fit. Fusion dance fusion PROBABLY works like addition with a multiplier (AT didn't comment on it), but Potara is multiplication (most likely with a reduction multiplier). And Potara is stated to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regular fusion. LSS Broly>100% SS Gohan, but SS2 Teen Gohan>>>>>>Broly. There is no inconsistency. The same exact situation occurs with Cell and Dabura. It is consistent. Don't forget, Buu Saga Gohan is MUCH weaker than Cell Games Gohan. SS Broly hasn't proven himself stronger than base Goku, which is super weird, but eh, it's a movie (which is why I avoided doing calculations for his other forms and avoid movies in general). On even footing, Broly's SS is the same as everyone else's. It's just SS, a 50x multiplier. His LSS form however, is obviously of a higher multiplier. | ||
|
RyLai
United States477 Posts
On September 26 2013 15:27 Tobberoth wrote: Since movies are just filler BS I think it's impossible to make any decent ratings. That said (and it was ages since I watched the movie), Gohan never goes SSJ2 against Broly, right? Acording to the list, Gohan is only stronger than Broly in SSJ2 form, which sounds correct to me. Gohan actually went SS2 that fight. If you look at the art, SS High School Gohan has 2 strands of hair over his forehead. SS2 Gohan has only 1 strand of hair, just like in the Cell Games. I know AT has been bad about forgetting to put in the SS2 sparks, but I'd've hoped the anime would've been better about it... Though I guess if they followed the manga art completely, they wouldn't know about it... It'd be funny though if they actually intended it to be SS, but forgot what the SS art was and ended up making it SS2 cause AT always forgets to detail the sparks (this is why it's not fully clear whether Super Vegito is SS2 or SS). But yeah, based on the art, it is SS2 Gohan (who is very weak in comparison to literally every other SS2 in the story). | ||
|
JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On September 26 2013 16:55 Foblos wrote: I'm not super up to date on DBZ lore but can you explain why Gohan became such a bitch in the Buu saga? I understand that he wasn't training hardcore like previous but it just never made sense to me how he could be literally the only savior of earth and then be a weak pansy a few years later. Well, strength deteriorates with time if you do not train your full strength. Also he is probably out of training when it comes to fighting in general. And he isn't that weak of a pansy, I think I remember Goku and Vegeta saying that Dabra (who Gohan fought) was almost as strong as perfect Cell. | ||
|
obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On September 27 2013 00:28 RyLai wrote: Gohan actually went SS2 that fight. If you look at the art, SS High School Gohan has 2 strands of hair over his forehead. SS2 Gohan has only 1 strand of hair, just like in the Cell Games. I know AT has been bad about forgetting to put in the SS2 sparks, but I'd've hoped the anime would've been better about it... Though I guess if they followed the manga art completely, they wouldn't know about it... It'd be funny though if they actually intended it to be SS, but forgot what the SS art was and ended up making it SS2 cause AT always forgets to detail the sparks (this is why it's not fully clear whether Super Vegito is SS2 or SS). But yeah, based on the art, it is SS2 Gohan (who is very weak in comparison to literally every other SS2 in the story). Not only that, but why would Gohan fight in SS1 if he was losing/about to die when he could be SS2? | ||
|
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On September 27 2013 00:33 JustPassingBy wrote: Gohan lost half his power and still wiped the floor with super perfect cell. He had to of lost half his strength just by idling a couple years. What I could never accept is THAT he idled. People say 'he was never interested in fighting' but I dont see it. He always seem excited to see new powers and abilities, and beyond that, Gohan wasnt an idiot. How many times was the earth almost wiped out from an exterior threat in his life time? It happened at least five times, and if we want to count some filler-- dozens. He was told to protect the planet by his Father and instead, this virtual God like child [he can move faster than the speed of light by several thousand multiples, given Raditz could go faster for god sakes, he can fly, destroy planets without trying--- really he could probably wipe out the universe with a single blast if he wanted] instead spends his days studying? At that, he lives in the mountains away from civilization, he lives in seemingly desperate poverty. What in the hell was he doing with his time outside of studying? Why would chi chi, or Gohan, have such drastic material ambitions when hes as close to a God and protector of Earth as one could possibly conceive of?Well, strength deteriorates with time if you do not train your full strength. Also he is probably out of training when it comes to fighting in general. And he isn't that weak of a pansy, I think I remember Goku and Vegeta saying that Dabra (who Gohan fought) was almost as strong as perfect Cell. It was just stupid. Dexter ending level stupid. | ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War League of Legends Counter-Strike Heroes of the Storm Other Games |
|
RSL Revival
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
The PondCast
RSL Revival
Harstem vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
Replay Cast
RSL Revival
Reynor vs Scarlett
ShoWTimE vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
SC Evo League
Road to EWC
Circuito Brasileiro de…
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
